Letting your employer know you are looking for a new position..

Devilsbane

forkvoid wrote: »

My employer was actually one of those that made it a condition of employment that I start in two days. I had gotten clearance from my then-current supervisor several months before(who was aware I was leaving) in case this came up, so no bad taste in their mouths.... but demanding I start immediately, then wanting three months notice to leave... It strikes me now that it's pretty dang selfish of them.

I was working somewhere, and was also working with a contracting agency to find an IT job. I went to an interview Wednesday morning. Received a Verbal offer Wednesday night and was expected to start on Monday. I had another interview lined up for Thursday with the consulting company and my recruiter wanted me to still go to it. (Probably because it was a higher paying job because he gets a higher cut). I didn't want to go. I thought I would like job number 1 better, and even if it paid slightly less I didn't care.

Driving to the interview, I get a call from the person from the consulting firm who was in charge of that account. He wanted to make sure that I was interested in this job and not going to it just for the heck of it and waste their time. At this point I decided I couldn't bail and faked interest. Company number 1 was a pc rollout for a hospital. Job number 2 was working on a help desk.

The company was tipped off that I was offered a job on Wednesday and told they would have to respond that night. The interview went great. There were just a couple tell me about you kind of questions and almost entirely this is why our company is awesome. As I left he told me I would make a great fit. One of the things he said is that he heard the first company wouldn't give me 2 weeks and he thought that was BS. He told me I could have as long as I wanted.

That night, heard nothing. Friday, told that someone higher up still had to sign off, but he wanted me there. Friday afternoon I had to make a choice. Take the sure thing and report to my drug test or wait around and see what happens with number 2. I have always been a gambling man. I liked the idea of working for a hospital, but company 2 seemed like a better fit. More money, and more understanding. So I waited.

Monday afternoon, I was walking out of work. Listened to my voicemail and found our company number 2 came through. I walked back in and gave my 2 weeks.

The fact that they wouldn't give me 2 weeks was a large factor of my decision. I'm glad they didn't. I am working for one of the best companies out there and couldn't be happier.

Config

nanashi wrote: »

Since I'm a contractor working through a temp agency I have a feeling that my manager would just contact the temp agency and find a replacement before I can even get a new job.

This made me laugh, in all seriousness some people care about their companies way more than they care about them, I was in a position where I was given a bullshit excuse and given 2 days notice, lesson learnt from that, give them the minimum time your contractually/professionally obliged to and not a second more.

earweed

I currently work under contract as a field engineer and my contract states that I give 30 days notice. It also states that I'll be penalized monetarily if not giving 30 days notice for a tech outside of my area to cover my area during that time. I'm looking and could care less about this company but would not like losing money for leaving early. I'll probably just give 2 weeks notice and hope for the best as far as not losing money.
Should I tell them I'm looking..NO

it_consultant

What state are you in earweed? That contract almost sounds illegal. Its illegal to hold on to your final paycheck, if you keep company property then you are responsible for returning it or paying for it. Actually being responsible for the billable time for another employee to cover the work you would be doing, I have never heard of that.

erpadmin

it_consultant wrote: »

What state are you in earweed? That contract almost sounds illegal. Its illegal to hold on to your final paycheck, if you keep company property then you are responsible for returning it or paying for it. Actually being responsible for the billable time for another employee to cover the work you would be doing, I have never heard of that.

I'm pretty sure it's not illegal. At my job, I believe your very final paycheck can be witheld if you don't return property. (ID badge, laptop, cell phone, etc.) All of that stuff PLUS an exit interview has to be done before HR releases the last paycheck.

(This is in NJ btw....and earweed's location (Alabama) is in his cert section under his name, just like Denver is under yours .... ).

Paul Boz

dynamik wrote: »

I'm with the crowd that thinks it depends on the employer. As things stand with my current employer, I'd definitely give notice and possibly even tell them in advance if I was starting to look casually. We have a difficult time staying fully staffed as it is, and it takes months to get someone up to speed even if they're competent. I usually have travel and on-site engagements scheduled around three months in advance, and I would be putting them in an awful position if I just walked out the door one day.

Unless there are extenuating circumstances, I'd always give at least two weeks. Sure, you might get shown the door, but then you get a two-week vacation Just make sure you have the funds to tide you over if that does happen. However, I usually see people getting paid for those two weeks in those circumstances. Your reputation can really follow you in this industry; I wouldn't burn any bridges unnecessarily.

I might have a somewhat unique perspective since I typically work for smaller, close-knit companies. It's possible I'd feel differently if I was just a tiny piece of the puzzle in an enormous IT department.

Also, personal integrity really factors into the equation for me. I simply wouldn't feel right about just walking out the door (under normal circumstances). Sure, they might be bitter or escort me out on the spot. Whatever. That's not on me. I'm not responsible for how others behave.

You’re a damn fool. You saw how they treated Steve (cutting his time short, lawsuit threats, etc). Nelson put in his two weeks and they said "enjoy your two-week vacation, bye." They do that with every employee on the block. I'm not even being a bitter former employee, either. My mindset there was always " find a new job and give a one day notice." The second you mention that you’re leaving you stop being “part of the family.” I leveraged leaving to get a huge raise one time and it turned into a "sense of entitlement" the entire duration of my employment. If anything, putting in a two or more week notice there would be more for the benefit of your co workers and not your management. Besides, it’s not like your spot would get filled within your two+ weeks.

In principle I agree with everything you said. That place is one of the unique situations where principles go out the window though. That brings me to my point. Every situation is different so you have to weigh your options. If you have a perceived bad relationship with your job, take home stress daily, etc, then the relationship isn’t reciprocal and staying longer than necessary may not be worth it. On the other hand, if you’re really banking on a great recommendation or are being forced out of your job due to exterior factors (moving, life-change, etc) you should be as courteous as possible. In a job market where you can get fired for no reason whatsoever it amazes me that people have so much loyalty to their employers.

Also, don’t EVER leverage leaving for a new job to get more money if you don’t truly have a new and better opportunity lined up. Depending on the manager, your value to the company, and pure economics, you are going to find yourself unemployed, told you’re not getting anything more (and basically poisoning your career at that company) or begrudgingly get more money. Very rarely have I seen people be able to effectively leverage leaving to get more money without poisoning the relationship long-term.

erpadmin

Paul Boz wrote: »

Also, don’t EVER leverage leaving for a new job to get more money if you don’t truly have a new and better opportunity lined up. Depending on the manager, your value to the company, and pure economics, you are going to find yourself unemployed, told you’re not getting anything more (and basically poisoning your career at that company) or begrudgingly get more money. Very rarely have I seen people be able to effectively leverage leaving to get more money without poisoning the relationship long-term.

+1 on this. If you got a Royal Flush for a hand, your employer calls with a Straight Flush....you best have that Royal!

At that point, when you start having to want to play those games, it's just best to move on anyway...life is too short for headaches!

eMeS

erpadmin wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's not illegal. At my job, I believe your very final paycheck can be witheld if you don't return property. (ID badge, laptop, cell phone, etc.) All of that stuff PLUS an exit interview has to be done before HR releases the last paycheck.

(This is in NJ btw....and earweed's location (Alabama) is in his cert section under his name, just like Denver is under yours .... ).

Only in South Dakota can a final paycheck be withheld for such. It is very illegal in every other state (as in the state will shut your ass down illegal). Final pay must be issued no later than the next regular pay date, regardless of returning equipment, exit interviews, etc... Any HR department worth their salt knows this.

However, the former employer can demand payment, and can sue for property that is not returned, etc., but they cannot automatically deduct it.

MS

eMeS

it_consultant wrote: »

What state are you in earweed? That contract almost sounds illegal. Its illegal to hold on to your final paycheck, if you keep company property then you are responsible for returning it or paying for it. Actually being responsible for the billable time for another employee to cover the work you would be doing, I have never heard of that.

I agree. You'd be surprised what shows up in contracts sometimes. For the most part, the courts have held that at-will doctrine supersedes contract law. Not always, but mostly. There are all kinds of exceptions like unions and collective bargaining agreements.

Another way of thinking about this is that as a nation we have a history of involuntary servitude. The 13th amendment not only abolished slavery, it also classified free vs. unfree labor. Nothing that you agree to in a employment contract overrides your right to benefit from the economic value of your labor, or to decide to whom you will provide your labor.

Europe and other parts of the world are a completely different story.

The other side of this discussion is one of professionalism and courtesy. In the US it's customary to give two weeks notice; however, it's not customary to let a current employer know that you're looking for a new job.

MS

erpadmin

eMeS wrote: »

Only in South Dakota can a final paycheck be withheld for such. It is very illegal in every other state. Final pay must be issued no later than the next regular pay date, regardless of returning equipment, exit interviews, etc... Any HR department worth their salt knows this.

However, the former employer can demand payment, and can sue for property that is not returned, etc., but they cannot automatically deduct it.

MS

Hmmmm, I would definitely want to see some facts on this (since you brought it up).

A former coworker (she was not pleasant to work with) had problems with her last check because my boss didn't forward the exit interview to HR right away. She had to call him to see if he could straighten things out with that.

But I would definitely like to see your facts to back that up. And yes, I'm quite capable of using Google....but at the moment, I'm not terribly inclined right now. [Though I may be later...]

EDIT: (Curiousity always gets the better of me....)

This is what I found: http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/employment-employer/employment-employer-ending/employment-employer-ending-paycheck-final.html

Apparently, SD does have a provision for returning property to your employer. (SD, coincidently, is also a usury-friendly state, so it's really not surprising to me that they would specifically have that provision on their books). But I don't see what makes it illegal for the other 49 states to demand on their own to have their property returned in a timely manner (usually within your customary two weeks). I also read other sites about the final paycheck and couldn't see what makes that illegal as well.

eMeS

erpadmin wrote: »

Hmmmm, I would definitely want to see some facts on this (since you brought it up).

A former coworker (she was not pleasant to work with) had problems with her last check because my boss didn't forward the exit interview to HR right away. She had to call him to see if he could straighten things out with that.

But I would definitely like to see your facts to back that up. And yes, I'm quite capable of using Google....but at the moment, I'm not terribly inclined right now. [Though I may be later...]

You're the one making the extraordinary claim, so you show me a state law that supports what you're saying.

Here's the relevant section from NJ's wage payment code:

"34:11-4.3. Termination or suspension of employment

Whenever an employer discharges an employee, or when the work of an employee is suspended as a result of a labor dispute, or when an employee for any reason whatsoever is laid off, or whenever an employee quits, resigns, or leaves employment for any reason, the employer shall pay the employee all wages due not later than the regular payday for the pay period during which the employee's termination, suspension or cessation of employment (whether temporary or permanent) took place, as established in accordance with section 2 of this act; or, in the case of employees compensated in part or in full by an incentive system, a reasonable approximation of all wages due, until the exact amounts due can be computed; provided, however, that when any employee is suspended as a result of a labor dispute and such labor dispute involves those employees who make up payrolls, the employer may have an additional 10 days in which to pay such wages. Such payment may be made either through the regular pay channels or by mail if requested by the employee."

and..

"12:55-1.4 Violation; punishment

Any employer who knowingly and willfully violates any provision of P.L. 1965, c.173 (N.J.S.A. 34:11-4.1 et seq.) shall be guilty of a disorderly persons offense and, upon conviction for a violation, shall be punished by a fine of not less than $100.00 nor more than $1,000. Each day during which any violation of the Act continues shall constitute a separate and distinct offense."

Just because employers are stupid enough to try crap like this doesn't mean it's anywhere near legal.

MS

erpadmin

So it begs a different question...what recourse does an employer have if I want to keep the cell phone, laptop, and other property? (Aside from suing me?). Or if I don't want to participate in an exit interview?

But I'm pretty sure I had to sign something stating that I would return all property, upon leaving as well as participate in a exit interview, and failure to do that would affect the final paycheck I receive. Keep in mind too, that this is a public sector agency. I can't believe they would violate the law willingly like that.

eMeS

erpadmin wrote: »

Apparently, SD does have a provision for returning property to your employer. (SD, coincidently, is also a usury-friendly state, so it's really not surprising to me that they would specifically have that provision on their books).

Crappy state, crappy laws. I would guess if this ever got seriously challenged then it wouldn't hold up.

erpadmin wrote: »

But I don't see what makes it illegal for the other 49 states to demand on their own to have their property returned in a timely manner (usually within your customary two weeks). I also read other sites about the final paycheck and couldn't see what makes that illegal as well.

Nothing makes demanding that their property be returned illegal. Employers are free to do that, and they can sue the former employee for it. What is illegal is unauthorized withholding or deduction from wages. There is no due process involved in the employer deciding the amount to deduct and unilaterally deducting it. Ultimately it also violates the 13th amendment.

One reason why states have chosen to make this illegal is because employers could easily coerce employees based on withholding earnings.

MS

eMeS

erpadmin wrote: »

So it begs a different question...what recourse does an employer have if I want to keep the cell phone, laptop, and other property? (Aside from suing me?).

1. They can demand payment, and the former employee can agree and pay it.
2. They can demand payment, and the former employee can disagree, and then the employer can sue.

erpadmin wrote: »

Or if I don't want to participate in an exit interview?

Very simply it is not the responsibility of a former employee to improve or make his former employer a better place to work. When things like this end up in employment contracts it means that there is an out of control HR at work.

erpadmin wrote: »

But I'm pretty sure I had to sign something stating that I would return all property, upon leaving as well as participate in a exit interview, and failure to do that would affect the final paycheck I receive. Keep in mind too, that this is a public sector agency. I can't believe they would violate the law willingly like that.

Doesn't surprise me to hear this.

The other thing that you will see commonly is withholding pay for training expenses. Again, the employer can't do that. They can sue you and try to collect the training expenses, but they can't keep your final paycheck.

MS

earweed

Also I may need to clarify something else which probably makes what they are doing legal. I have a contract with them but it is not totally as an employee but I was required, as part of employment, to set up a business. That means I have a tax id and my paychecks are to my business and not to me personally. Everything is set up for the companies benefit.

it_consultant

You can go to the labor board. In Colorado they have a "Demand for Payment" form letter on there website specifically for situations like the one you mentioned. Normally they get the idea fast, you must be paid for work you do no matter what. Its the lynchpin of our economy.

I have handled a lot of terminations and I know they have threatened to withhold the paycheck but they never follow through since it will land them in hot water.

it_consultant

earweed wrote: »

Also I may need to clarify something else which probably makes what they are doing legal. I have a contract with them but it is not totally as an employee but I was required, as part of employment, to set up a business. That means I have a tax id and my paychecks are to my business and not to me personally. Everything is set up for the companies benefit.

So you are a 1099 contractor?

erpadmin

eMeS wrote: »

Nothing makes demanding that their property be returned illegal. Employers are free to do that, and they can sue the former employee for it. What is illegal is unauthorized withholding or deduction from wages. There is no due process involved in the employer deciding the amount to deduct and unilaterally deducting it. Ultimately it also violates the 13th amendment.

One reason why states have chosen to make this illegal is because employers could easily coerce employees based on withholding earnings.

MS

I do buy that the employer can not deduct anything for property. I did find that much in NJ DOL web site:

Department of Labor and Workforce Development | Wage and Hour Compliance FAQs

Q. Can an employer deduct money from my last paycheck if I don't return company property such as an ID tag, cell phone, tools, etc?

A.No. The Law does not permit deductions for failure to return company property of any kind.

The witholding the final check with vacation, sick time paid out was what got me, but it looks like that too might not hold water.

So basically even if I did sign something to the effect that I must return property, if I'm not paid in a timely manner (the paycheck sent to my home or whatever) I can file charges. But I'm guessing it never gets that far, because most people want to just concentrate on their new jobs, I'm imagining. But at least folks have options.

nel

i wouldnt let them know. Thats a part of the work cycle imo. People come and go, its just one of those things. i think your putting yourself in the firing line if you tell them.

erpadmin

it_consultant wrote: »

So you are a 1099 contractor?

They have him listed as an independent contractor. That basically means he's not legally an employee of theirs.......which means he's not entitled to benefits. It also means that they don't have to pay payroll or social security taxes on him.

The IRS has been cracking down on a lot of these companies.......maybe a friendly call to them might be in order....

earweed

it_consultant wrote: »

So you are a 1099 contractor?

Yes, and since it's contracted through my business instead of individually I lose a lot of the rights an individual has.

eMeS

erpadmin wrote: »

So basically even if I did sign something to the effect that I must return property, if I'm not paid in a timely manner (the paycheck sent to my home or whatever) I can file charges.

As mentioned previously you can demand payment.

I'm not saying that this in any way applies to you, but everyone should consider that state law is not an excuse to throw personal integrity out the window.

MS

erpadmin

eMeS wrote: »

As mentioned previously you can demand payment.

I'm not saying that this in any way applies to you, but everyone should consider that state law is not an excuse to throw personal integrity out the window.

MS

Whoa there....settle down there, tiger.

I in no way meant to imply that would ever be the case. I am definitely going to return everything that's employer owned...including the ID badge. They can always sue me in court, as well as file charges for theft! LOL...no one needs that on their resume....

poriggity

I let it slip to my current employer, that I am working on computer certifications, and looking for a new job... Needless to say, they have made my life VERY difficult, but I'm going to stick it out till I find something, or until they escort me out of the building, whichever comes first.

Bl8ckr0uter

poriggity wrote: »

I let it slip to my current employer, that I am working on computer certifications, and looking for a new job... Needless to say, they have made my life VERY difficult, but I'm going to stick it out till I find something, or until they escort me out of the building, whichever comes first.

How did they find out?

laptop

One piece of advice.

If you are looking for a new job...especially if you apply for a position at your company's strategic partners/vendors...your company will sometimes find out even if you don't tell them.

ssampier

poriggity wrote: »

I let it slip to my current employer, that I am working on computer certifications, and looking for a new job... Needless to say, they have made my life VERY difficult, but I'm going to stick it out till I find something, or until they escort me out of the building, whichever comes first.

Good work ethic. You think an employer would want you to learn new things and grow.

This remains me of an old quote:

"If you train your employees you risk they leave. If you do not train your employees you risk they stay."

Forsaken_GA

I just recently changed jobs, and I went the route of not telling my former employer that I was looking.

I did take a calculated risk - I told the company I was applying with that they could contact my current employer (it's a security company, that deals with some very sensitive information, so I wanted to show I had nothing to hide).

I did have an ace in the hole, however, I was asked to apply by one of the team leads who happened to be a former co-worker. A good part of the interviewing process was a formality and more of a personality check than an actual skills check, because the former co-worker knew I was more than qualified for the job.

I kept my mouth shut. I went through the entire process and I was told an offer was coming, HR was just slow.

One Friday, I get a call from the President of my current employer, and he sounds slightly panicked, and wants to sit down with me. Turns out the Employment Verification from the prospective employer had hit that day.

I agreed to sit down and have a chat with him next week. I knew I had to walk the line carefully, as I didn't have an offer in hand, and now my employer knew I was looking.

The offer did come through on the following Monday, and I didn't immediately accept it. I was willing to hear my current employer out and see if they could give me a reason to stay. I sat down with the President on Tuesday (I had yet to mention that I had an offer in hand, as far as anyone knew, I had just applied). I should also mention he was in a bad mood because the week before someone else turned in their notice, and my leaving would create some serious organizational holes, as headcount was already stretched thin.

He made absolutely no attempt to retain me. He had decided I was leaving before I had. He basically decided to yell at me, said I wasn't a team player (which shocked my co-workers when I related this to them) and drew unfavorable comparisons to Brett Favre and Terrell Owens. I knew what he was doing, he was trying to make me feel guilty so I would stay. I didn't budge, I just accepted his comments, and answered his questions. As I was walking out the door, he said "I hope like hell they make you an offer."

Well, at that point, there was no choice left to be made, even if I declined the offer, I was out the door as soon as possible. I walked down the hall, and handed my direct supervisor my notice, and then left and dropped the signed acceptance letter off with my new employer. I was very disappointed with how the conversation went, as I had always been on good terms with all of management.

So I am in total agreement with the folks that say 'keep quiet'. Nothing good can possibly come from tipping your hand early, even if you think you know your bosses. Once you've made the decision to start looking for another job, you're already emotionally checked out from your current one. If an employer can't be convinced to give you a raise based on the merit of your performance alone, then trying to get a counter offer by throwing another job at them isn't going to have the consequences you think it will. The second it becomes known you're looking at other possibilities, an adversarial situation is created with your current employer. Best to get it over with as quickly as possible.

snadam

From my personal experience, I have learned a few things. This wont apply to all people or situations, but who knows?

Unless its a special circumstance/rapport with your current employer, I usually err on the side of being discreet. I think amongst most that its one of those 'unwritten rules'; you dont say much of anything until you have a job in hand.

My latest experience with this was that I was tired of working for my previous employer. Dirty business/personal issues regarding morals/ethics and my paycheck DROVE me to find a new place of work. Anyway, I had 2 suitors, one that gave me the offer and one that was still courting me. I really wanted to work for the employer that was still interviewing me, and saw the other job (offer given) as a backup. At this point is when I felt safe enough to give them my two weeks. I guess you could say that management was 'blindsided' because I made it clear on all my applications/interviews that it was NOT OK to call my current employer, which none of my interviewers had an issue with BTW. I was extremely disappointed when my direct boss wouldn't even talk to me about it after I submitted my 2 weeks. I agreed to work as a contractor until they found a solution for their IT department (small business) per their request. So, after 2 weeks of this contract work, they decided to just disable all accounts and access to their environment without notification. I called multiple times and received no answer from our IT consultant (interim admin). Furthermore, they refused to pay me for the 30 hours or so of work I accumulated. So, I drove down there, grabbed the rest of my belongings, returned all company property and I was on my merry way. They asked me for my new number (had a company Blackberry at the time) and I said NOPE! That was the end of that. Fortunately, things worked out and I got the job offer with the company I wanted. AND I got a nice 2 weeks off in the process in between jobs.

In retrospect, it was stupid to do that 'contractor' deal with them. I had a personal and professional disdain for management at the time. I do not, however, regret keeping them unaware of my job search while I was looking around and I'm glad I didn't put them as a contact.

Morales of the story:
1. In most cases, Don't inform your current employer you're actively pursuing another job
2. If at all possible have multiple options.
3. Whatever route you choose, CUT YOUR TIES CLEANLY
4. Don't work for/with family

levensailor

I let my employer know what I thought and that I had filled out a few higher paying applications and got a $6k raise