degree and certs

ehnde

Yesterday was my first day in my Microsoft class (8 week class that goes over the material in 70-646) at the local community college. We just finished an 8 week vista configuration class and it's pretty much the same people. Of the people graduating with a degree in I.T. in May 2011, this track of Microsoft classes (4 classes in a series) comprises at least 60% of graduates with that major. I asked everyone if they had taken the vista configuration exam....no, none of them. I asked everyone if they were GOING to take the exam. None have plans for it. (I'm taking it in two weeks)

So each of the 4 8-week microsoft classes corresponds to a microsoft certification exam. None of my classmates sees the need in getting certified. Granted, an 8 week college course will not adequately prepare you to pass an exam like 70-646, but surely certification would be IMPORTANT in conjunction with an A.S. in information technology....if you intended to be employed after graduating.

Now I'm wondering....am I missing something here? Do the rest of these guys have a job fairy waiting to wave a magical wand for them after they graduate?

I'm scared to death about the job prospects in this area even with a degree and the added bonus of certs after I graduate. It's beyond me how so many could be so casual about all of this. It's only your life, your career, and your salary, right?

</rant>

networker050184

Don't worry about them. Just one more thing you will have on your resume that they won't.

Repo Man

This is more common than you think and to be perfectly honest I fell into the trap myself for a little bit. I think people expect a job once you graduate without additional work and it just doesn't happen.

Mike-Mike

I am in school now, sorta the same as you are describing... and no one took the HDI cert but me, and only half took the ITIL cert... we'll see what happens with A+

IT Nerd

Certifications have nothing to do with what you want to do. They are a representation of what you already know.
Certifications are meant to verify the experience you already have, not to land the job you want to get.

You mentioned the 70-646 initially. If you've never had substantial, real world, on-the-job experience administering servers in a real world environment, then passing the 70-646 doesn't represent your skills. The same goes for the Vista cert.

People who inflate their resumes with certifications that they don't have the real-world experience to back up on the job do themselves and any employer who might hire them an injustice.

If you have a server admin cert and don't already have the real world experience to back it up, it isn't worth the paper it printed out on in the real world.
Many people get it backward in order to try to get their foot in the door somewhere, but having certs on paper only will backfire on you and cause harm to your career.

I know there are many people who are working hard toward a career in IT and are looking for any advantage they can get in a bad economy and will disagree with me, but I know how this works in the real world.
It's experience first, certs second.

[Deleted User]

IT Nerd wrote: »

Certifications have nothing to do with what you want to do. They are a representation of what you already know.
Certifications are meant to verify the experience you already have, not to land the job you want to get.

You mentioned the 70-646 initially. If you've never had substantial, real world, on-the-job experience administering servers in a real world environment, then passing the 70-646 doesn't represent your skills. The same goes for the Vista cert.

People who inflate their resumes with certifications that they don't have the real-world experience to back up on the job do themselves and any employer who might hire them an injustice.

If you have a server admin cert and don't already have the real world experience to back it up, it isn't worth the paper it printed out on in the real world.
Many people get it backward in order to try to get their foot in the door somewhere, but having certs on paper only will backfire on you and cause harm to your career.

I know there are many people who are working hard toward a career in IT and are looking for any advantage they can get in a bad economy and will disagree with me, but I know how this works in the real world.
It's experience first, certs second.

Are you talking about dumping or legitimately earning the certification? I can't see any situation where legitimately having a certification would put you at a disadvantage. For example, say I don't have any IT experience and I gain the Windows XP cert. I think you are more likely to get hired onto a help desk with that rather than nothing. Now you're in that help desk role for a year or 2 and you're really getting sick of it. What are you going to do now? This is almost a chicken/egg discussion so I understand where you're coming from I just choose to respectfully disagree.

Edit: On the topic of what the OP was originally discussing.. I was in a similar situation at my college. I'm not sure if people that go to community college are less motivated or willing to settle for less? Many of the people in my classes didn't care about certification and probably didn't care for a job outside of the help desk.

it_consultant

Its hard for me to believe people are taking an exam prep course and then not taking the exam. What disadvantage could they possibly cite by having a degree AND certification? It sounds like they are just lazy. Nursing students have to take their certification tests, otherwise their degree in Nursing is just nice wall decoration. Every profession requires some amount of professional development.

tpatt100

Some people are probably having a hard enough time keeping up with the class let alone worry about studying to pass the certification. I know with my experience and having done certs I know the pace/expectation and I know I can manage it but many classes I have taken involved people who are new to IT. My first IT class used the A+ book, only two of us took the actual exam. We got jobs before we finished our next class but we were already geeks before the class and enjoyed learning the hardware outside of class.

Also plenty of the classes I took that used the exam prep books did not cover enough of the material to prepare you for the test. I knew this ahead of time so I made sure to read the "extra" chapters we did not cover.

I think people are worried about just completing the class on time and keeping up, and getting ready for the next semester. If I was to do it over again I would have taken more tests but waited until the summer break if I took one to prep for tests that I had taken the class on.

motogpman

I would say that if they (your classmates) already know they are headed into the IT field and don't take the certification tests, than there is a problem. Not sure if it is within the academia there or the students not researching the industry they are planning on joining, but just a degree isn't going to land them a job, or the "BIG" one they may be looking for. It's the same as reading reading a car driver's handbook/manual but riding the metro every day.... what a waste of time and effort. It's not like those are general studies, you have pointed out specific exams classes.

As far as being worried, don't fret too much. Everyone goes through that, the uncertainty, but take the situation as a learning lesson. Take the exams and that will put you ahead of your competition. Remember, you can't get time back and if I had a dime for every time I or other's around me have said " I should have" I could be retired by now. What you think you will be doing in the short term isn't what you will be doing long term, which a lot of people over look.

Mike-Mike

IT Nerd wrote: »

Certifications have nothing to do with what you want to do. They are a representation of what you already know.
Certifications are meant to verify the experience you already have, not to land the job you want to get.

You mentioned the 70-646 initially. If you've never had substantial, real world, on-the-job experience administering servers in a real world environment, then passing the 70-646 doesn't represent your skills. The same goes for the Vista cert.

People who inflate their resumes with certifications that they don't have the real-world experience to back up on the job do themselves and any employer who might hire them an injustice.

If you have a server admin cert and don't already have the real world experience to back it up, it isn't worth the paper it printed out on in the real world.
Many people get it backward in order to try to get their foot in the door somewhere, but having certs on paper only will backfire on you and cause harm to your career.

I know there are many people who are working hard toward a career in IT and are looking for any advantage they can get in a bad economy and will disagree with me, but I know how this works in the real world.
It's experience first, certs second.

maybe this correct for higher level certs, but several are specifically listed as Entry-Level

motogpman

While "Vista" can be viewed as an entry level, I wouldn't consider the 70-646 "entry" level and both of those count towards MCITP certifications. Just my 2 cents, but taking a course specifically named for/towards a MS certification test is not the same as taking a general networking or PC fundamentals test. IMO it is a waste of time to take the class and NOT at least try the exam, even if they need to use other sources.

What's intersting is that ehnde gave just enough info to lead me to beleive that the instructors may not, in this case, be pointing or advising the students in the right direction. It may be possible that the students don't realize the class prep is the same as the MS tests? Why not call it Intro to MS Server 2008 Administration or something similar if not pushing them to take the actual test? Am I missing something here?

When I was at CC, I was not impressed with how current the coursework/materials were, I was already in the industry and they seemed to be 2-4 years behind the curve. This may be the case.

it_consultant

I have a coworker (my boss as a matter of fact) who went to CCNA training and didn't take the test to renew his CCNA. I never understood this, you already put 70% of the effort in, might as well follow through.

motogpman

LOL, exactly. I fall into that category. I took a CCNA prep course, Cisco instructor led, at my last company's training center, 2002 time frame. We had the national service contract for their equipment and still, to this day, kick myself for NOT taking the test back then. Hindsight is a b&*&*...... I have learned that the hard way at times and it also depends on what kind of people you surround yourself with. Motivational factors.

I get a lot of people coming to me, for relatives or their kids, on what to do and how to start out. A lot of this stuff wasn't around when I switched from EE to IT. I point them in the right direction and try and help them as much as possible. I hate working with people who hoard info just to make them feel more valuable or more competent.

Guess it's the military in me, but you lead by example, communicate, and teaching is just as vaulable as being taught. It works both ways. Plus, your work should speak for itself, which is why I wrote earlier, it may be the insructors not pointing the students in the right direction or not even knowing themselves. That is a scary thought within itself, you would think the instructors would be pushing the students very hard to get certified based on the course names.

N2IT

IT Nerd wrote: »

Certifications have nothing to do with what you want to do. They are a representation of what you already know.
Certifications are meant to verify the experience you already have, not to land the job you want to get.

You mentioned the 70-646 initially. If you've never had substantial, real world, on-the-job experience administering servers in a real world environment, then passing the 70-646 doesn't represent your skills. The same goes for the Vista cert.

People who inflate their resumes with certifications that they don't have the real-world experience to back up on the job do themselves and any employer who might hire them an injustice.

If you have a server admin cert and don't already have the real world experience to back it up, it isn't worth the paper it printed out on in the real world.
Many people get it backward in order to try to get their foot in the door somewhere, but having certs on paper only will backfire on you and cause harm to your career.

I know there are many people who are working hard toward a career in IT and are looking for any advantage they can get in a bad economy and will disagree with me, but I know how this works in the real world.
It's experience first, certs second.

Agreed completely you should have some experience in the technology or theory before attempting to certify in it. Wether that is home training or working and actually utilizing those tools, (which is highly perferred).

I've been in an ISO/ITIL environment for over 3 years and felt by year 2 I should do the foundation exam to solidify and validate my knowledge, I also went out and did the OSA practitioner one also because I felt my experience was ready to digest that type of knowledge. I did the same thing with Office applications. I had been using MS office since 95ish and decided it was time to fill in the pieces and validate my use of those Office suite application. So in short I do agree.

I am of the school of thought that you shouldn't get a cert to get a specific job. Paper champs rarely succeed. Like I said before I have had employees come in here with nothing but the hunger to learn and a non IT related degree. I have also had other techs come in with 5-6 certs and a IT degree. After 3 months you would think that the guy mentioned number 2 would be the best tech. Not true all of the time. It really comes down to the individuals hunger his ability/apptitude, and his ability to work through stressful situations. I am in no way saying that the guy with the IT degree and certs has a higher probability of being a bust, believe me I am not, in fact if I was hiring someone I would like to see some form of IT achievement, along with experience.

tpatt100

it_consultant wrote: »

I have a coworker (my boss as a matter of fact) who went to CCNA training and didn't take the test to renew his CCNA. I never understood this, you already put 70% of the effort in, might as well follow through.

I had a manger who went to all the classes to get out of going to work.

Mike-Mike

at my school we have classes geared towards certs, and the instructors can encourage you to take the cert, but they cannot require it

IT Nerd

Mike-Mike wrote: »

maybe this correct for higher level certs, but several are specifically listed as Entry-Level

You're correct.

If you get certified, you should already have the experience that the certification represents. In the case of an entry-level certification, it means little to no experience. Therefore, an entry-level certification is an accurate representation of your experience and skill level.

Simply put, if you have a lower level certification, having lower level experience is a completely acceptable representation of that certification.

However, if you have the MCSA certification, and cannot verify some years of real-world, on-the-job experience, you're not touching my servers as an MCSA. If I hired you, you'd start out at the bottom as someone who had no experience as an MCSA and be given the chance to incrementally learn, gain experience and prove yourself over time (under direct supervision) before the MCSA would be an accurate representation of your skills and experience (and pay), even though you already had the certification.

If you have the CCNA and don't have several years of real-world, on-the-job experience administering Cisco gear in a network environment, you can't administer Cisco gear on my network. Just like the MCSA, you'd start at the bottom as something other than a CCNA and possibly earn that title over time.

In that context (regardless of the level of certification you have) you need the experience to back it up before it is an accurate measure of your skills.

Becoming a paper tiger (having a bunch of certs on paper) and not being able to back them up on the job, unless they are entry-level certs, will backfire on you unless you make it clear before going into a job.

People either get that or they don't, but it's real world.
Hopefully, I made my point more clearly this time so as not to be misunderstood.

ehnde

Thanks for the replies and words of encouragement, guys!

In regards to waiting until you have experience to get certified, most of the popular vendors have entry level certifications. If you were to wait until you had a job in I.T. before going to get certified around here, you may find yourself flipping burgers or working retail. I'm not talking CISSP or CCIE here...entry level microsoft certification.

However, if you have the MCSA certification, and cannot verify some years of real-world, on-the-job experience, you're not touching my servers as an MCSA. If I hired you, you'd start out at the bottom as someone who had no experience as an MCSA and be given the chance to incrementally learn, gain experience and prove yourself over time (under direct supervision) before the MCSA would be an accurate representation of your skills and experience (and pay), even though you already had the certification.

Definetly! I was totally blown away today in class when I realized how HUGE of a responsibility this must be in a large organization. One persons screw up could take down an entire network....not to be taken lightly.

But you can't read a book and study case scenarios from an exam textbook and even come close to being prepared to pass the MCITP exams. A college class isn't enough, either. Those exams are hard for a reason. My point is I strongly believe there is a correlation between the ability to pass these exams and a persons aptitude for doing their I.T. related job. Many of us are not provided the opportunity of help-desk, NOC,etc experience to start out with. That's why we grab this thing by the longhorns (get it? ) and set up a lab at home.

IT Nerd

ehnde wrote: »

Thanks for the replies and words of encouragement, guys!

In regards to waiting until you have experience to get certified, most of the popular vendors have entry level certifications. If you were to wait until you had a job in I.T. before going to get certified around here, you may find yourself flipping burgers or working retail. I'm not talking CISSP or CCIE here...entry level microsoft certification.



Definetly! I was totally blown away today in class when I realized how HUGE of a responsibility this must be in a large organization. One persons screw up could take down an entire network....not to be taken lightly.

But you can't read a book and study case scenarios from an exam textbook and even come close to being prepared to pass the MCITP exams. A college class isn't enough, either. Those exams are hard for a reason. My point is I strongly believe there is a correlation between the ability to pass these exams and a persons aptitude for doing their I.T. related job. Many of us are not provided the opportunity of help-desk, NOC,etc experience to start out with. That's why we grab this thing by the longhorns (get it? ) and set up a lab at home.

Agreed.
The age old question of how do I get a job without experience if I can't have experience until I get a job?

As long as paper certifications don't always equate to "qualified" in someone's mind, they can sort it out.
Get entry-level certs that require little or no experience (if you don't have experience), get hired at an entry-level position and work your way up from the bottom.

A person who goes to medical school to become a surgeon can be a certified medical doctor, have a license and everything, but they still have to complete an internship before they can strike out on their own and become "qualified" to cut on you.

Would you rather have a doctor operate on you who has done the procedure hundreds of times, or one who is "licensed" and theoretically knows what to do from books and study, but is just now getting his hands bloody in the real world?

Someone saving lives and someone administering servers on a network may seem like apples and oranges, but to the IT manager who puts his livelihood into the trust and confidence he has is his "experts", certified or not, it is just as serious in the real world.

"Certification" is big business. Millions of dollars ride on the persona, prestige and glamour associated with getting people who think that certifications are the key to success to spend millions of hard earned dollars obtaining them.

Certifications are valuable by validating milestones in your career. Where you are in your career should be validated by the certifications you hold, not vice versa.

Too many people try to put the cart before the horse and flip it around so that if they have a cert, they therefore must be qualified to hold the position the certification represents. Having a certification doesn't mean you aren't qualified to have it, anymore than having it necessarily proves you are qualified to have it.
You may possess the cert, but earning it comes by having the experience of whatever level the cert represents (entry-level or otherwise).

I'm not beating on certifications. I value every one I hold. My goal is not to demean certs, or belittle anyones efforts to obtain them. My goal is to get the people out there who may not realize the actual purpose of certifications to see their true value, which is the validation of reaching a goal, not the means to an end.

snokerpoker

I took classes at local college and noticed the same thing. Over half of the people weren't taking the cert tests and just expected to find jobs making 6 figures. I never understood that at all.....

motogpman

Certifications, "real world" experience, and education are all interwoven. Obviously most companies are going to take all that into account, or at least should, when bringing someone on board through the hiring process.

I have worked with people who have certifications, formal education, and 10 to 20 years of supposed real world experience who could mess up a wet dream. It should be an individual basis and that is the hiring processes intention, unless it is one of those, friend of a friend or buddy situations. What is all boils down to, if you say you are good enough, you need to be or your peers are going to call you out on it.

I have also ran into people who are so ANTI certification that it's almost a religion to them. In my experiences, they have always been the worst ones about making mistakes, no attention to detail, and not connecting the dots on things. I have worked with several people who ONLY have hands on experience and they were in no position to point fingers or judge others, but in their own mind due to that "experience" they thought they were the true guru's.

These are my own experiences though, but after spending 8 years in the field working with on site admins, engineers, executives/owners and supporting the likes of EMC, Netapps, Cisco, Dell, HP, IBM.... They aren't going to let you touch their equipment without having some sort of "certification", either by industry standards or their own internal standards, as well as a contractual agreement.

So, to the OP, my 2 cents is take the advantage if you are available too, given what you originally wrote. Every bit helps and now adays, the more you have the better, with your formal education and obtain the certifications, you should edge out your peers easily. You have to remember human egos and there is more at play during the hiring process than meets the eye.