GNS3 amazon cloud

DevilWAH

I was just interested, has any one ever tired running Dynamips instances on Amazon or other cloud based computing service, and then just run the GNS3 front end locally for router emulation in labs?

you can get a 32gb ram and 4 virtual processors for $1 an hour! now that's going to be able to emulate plenty of routers and must compare well to renting rack space..

DevilWAH

tiersten

I don't see why it wouldn't work but how big of a topology are you planning anyway? A decent PC can do quite a few by itself so unless you want to simulate a massive network then its not really worthwhile. If your topology is this complicated then you'll want real switches anyway...

You'd need to package up Dynamips so that it is self contained, has all the files it needs and then write all the scripts necessary to start it up and mount the EBS volumes. You're not supposed to host anything illegal on Amazon EC though :P

DevilWAH

tiersten wrote: »

You're not supposed to host anything illegal on Amazon EC though :P

I was thinking that .

I was shocked that Jeremy on his new CBT nuggets videos plugs GNS3.. and even included GNS3 lab topologies. I can't Imagen CBT would have allowed it with out being sure CISCO would not come back on them for it. So my feeling is that CISCO might no publicly discuss GNS3, they at the same time are happy for it to exist and be used.

DevilWAH

tiersten wrote: »

I don't see why it wouldn't work but how big of a topology are you planning anyway?

I am currently down to an over used laptop that while it can run GNS3 OK, it does cause a bit of a slow down.

I was not really thinking really of using it, I was just wondering if other people who currently rent rack time, have ever thought of the alternitive.

and now you can run ASA with in GNS3 its hammering the PC more and more, so being able to off load some of the processing to a remote host could be a nice idea.

tiersten

DevilWAH wrote: »

I was thinking that .

I was shocked that Jeremy on his new CBT nuggets videos plugs GNS3.. and even included GNS3 lab topologies. I can't Imagen CBT would have allowed it with out being sure CISCO would not come back on them for it. So my feeling is that CISCO might no publicly discuss GNS3, they at the same time are happy for it to exist and be used.

My thoughts on it are that Cisco are aware it exists however it isn't a danger at the moment because nobody is going to be crazy enough to use it for routing but if it does interfere with Cisco business in the future then they'll stamp on it hard.

Unless somebody does some major work on it, Dynamips and by extension GNS3 will start losing popularity as the hardware platforms that Dynamips supports are pretty much all EOL/EOS now. Even the 7200 routers that it supports aren't a valid platform for 15.1T. You're stuck with 15.0M for a 7200 if you want the latest/greatest.

Adding support for the newer ISRs and other routers is complicated because Cisco started using vendor parts which have no public documentation or have Cisco specific ASICs which again have no documentation available. Even the 1841 which has a off the shelf PCI bridge chip which the Linux MIPS project seems to have support for an older variant may have some issues because it has some sort FPGA inside for crypto acceleration and other functions.

The ASA in QEMU/PEMU is a bit sketchy since that does perform reasonably well but there are already people making frankenPIX/ASA machines which are a bigger "threat" IMO.

Forsaken_GA

DevilWAH wrote: »

I was thinking that .

I was shocked that Jeremy on his new CBT nuggets videos plugs GNS3.. and even included GNS3 lab topologies. I can't Imagen CBT would have allowed it with out being sure CISCO would not come back on them for it. So my feeling is that CISCO might no publicly discuss GNS3, they at the same time are happy for it to exist and be used.

There's nothing illegal about GNS3/dynamips, the only part that's remotely questionable is IOS licensing, and unless Jeremy is pimping sites to get images from without paying Cisco their due, Cisco wouldn't have any legal recourse against CBT. If Cisco ever decided to get uppity, they'd start with ebay.

DevilWAH

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

There's nothing illegal about GNS3/dynamips, the only part that's remotely questionable is IOS licensing, and unless Jeremy is pimping sites to get images from without paying Cisco their due, Cisco wouldn't have any legal recourse against CBT. If Cisco ever decided to get uppity, they'd start with ebay.

Seeing how CISCO licence IOS against the hardware, it is impossible to have a licensed IOS running in GNS3, much like an OEM licence from Microsoft is only licence for the hardware it is purchased with. (you can't then dispose of the original PC, buy a new one with out an OS and use the original licence.)

Same with CISCO IOS, just because you hold the licence for the IOS does not mean you can use it in any way apart from the specific hardware you licensed it for.

Because of the Jeremy is suggesting you carry out an illegal activity. As far as I am aware no one has been given a licence to run on GNS3, so therefore it comes down to both Jeremy selling a video of himself committing a crime, and suggesting others do the same.

Like you say there is nothing illegal about GNS3/Dynamips in its self. But as soon as you load any IOS file on there, then it breaks the law. And urging others to breaks the law, can in many countries lead to a crime through association.

However I am trying to find a thread on the CISCO site, I remember posting there about this (obtaining IOS for study) and packet tracer (it only being available to students of cisco). And there was a reply from cisco which basically said "watch this space", in regards to both.

earweed

That's a big area I've been worried about as I'm starting my CCNA studies. Using GNS3 involves using "basically" an illegal copy of the IOS. Even buying hardware off ebay which probably wont have the IOS I need for my studies will also involve getting an "illegal" copy of a more current IOS. When will Cisco come around and start offering more current IOS for purchase without buying new hardware?

tiersten

earweed wrote: »

Even buying hardware off ebay which probably wont have the IOS I need for my studies will also involve getting an "illegal" copy of a more current IOS.

IOS is licensed for that specific device and is a non transferrable license so second hand hardware isn't licensed. It is already illegal :P

earweed wrote: »

When will Cisco come around and start offering more current IOS for purchase without buying new hardware?

You can already. Relicense IOS and then pay for SMARTnet.

earweed

tiersten wrote: »

IOS is licensed for that specific device and is a non transferrable license so second hand hardware isn't licensed. It is already illegal :P


You can already. Relicense IOS and then pay for SMARTnet.

Both these things are news to me. I thought it was perfectly legal to purchase used hardware like that. SMARTnet I'll have to google to find out about.

tiersten

earweed wrote: »

I thought it was perfectly legal to purchase used hardware like that.

Nope. IOS Software License Agreement says "Cisco Systems, Inc. ("Cisco") and its suppliers grant to Customer ("Customer") a nonexclusive and nontransferable license to use the Cisco software ("Software") in object code form solely on a single central processing unit owned or leased by Customer or otherwise embedded in equipment provided by Cisco."

In short, nontransferrable and its only for Cisco hardware.

earweed wrote: »

SMARTnet I'll have to google to find out about.

SMARTnet is just the maintenance contract. It is a regular maintenance contract and pretty much like every other maintenance contract out there so you get various levels of support i.e. 5 days or 7 days.

If it is for something like a 800 router then the SMARTnet for that isn't actually that expensive for a year. Some people get SMARTnet on one so they can mass download off CCO but thats not legal either :P The only issue is that you can't pick up any random router as it can't be EOL or EOS.

tiersten

DevilWAH wrote: »

Seeing how CISCO licence IOS against the hardware, it is impossible to have a licensed IOS running in GNS3, much like an OEM licence from Microsoft is only licence for the hardware it is purchased with. (you can't then dispose of the original PC, buy a new one with out an OS and use the original licence.)

Same with CISCO IOS, just because you hold the licence for the IOS does not mean you can use it in any way apart from the specific hardware you licensed it for.

Dynamips itself isn't illegal still. There was a lawsuit several years ago regarding Sony and a Playstation emulator package called Bleem. It was ruled that it was legal to emulate something assuming you've not actually copied any copyrighted code. What you do with the emulator is your own business as there were legitimate reasons to use one.

DevilWAH wrote: »

Because of the Jeremy is suggesting you carry out an illegal activity.

To be honest, I think everybody is pretty safe regarding Dynamips usage. If you don't start trying to sell it then Cisco aren't going to do anything as at the end of the day it is benefiting them. If you do start bundling Dynamips with a DVD full of IOS images and selling them on eBay as that then don't be too surprised if you get a nastygram in the mail from Cisco. As always, I am not a lawyer and therefore you shouldn't listen to any such advice from me if you do use it.

DevilWAH wrote: »

Like you say there is nothing illegal about GNS3/Dynamips in its self. But as soon as you load any IOS file on there, then it breaks the law. And urging others to breaks the law, can in many countries lead to a crime through association.

You can run Linux MIPS binaries in it. Read the Linux MIPS website for more information.

DevilWAH wrote: »

However I am trying to find a thread on the CISCO site, I remember posting there about this (obtaining IOS for study) and packet tracer (it only being available to students of cisco). And there was a reply from cisco which basically said "watch this space", in regards to both.

I believe that they were referring to the CCNA simulator that Cisco Press released. Your other option would be the Nexus 1000V but thats not quite the same as the regular monolithic IOS in the other switches.

mikej412

DevilWAH wrote: »

But as soon as you load any IOS file on there, then it breaks the law.

You're violating Cisco's Licensing Agreement. It's up to Cisco to find you and sue you. You can fire up your laptop in a donut shop across the street from a police station and start up GNS3 (or Dynamips/Dynagen) and start up a bunch of routers without fear that the local Police will arrest you for breaking a law.

If you pirate an IOS image off the Internet, then there are the software piracy issues (and copyrighted software issues) -- so buy your used hardware with the images you want (since Cisco doesn't seem to make used equipment resellers remove the installed IOS images before resale). But if you deploy used hardware at a bunch of customer sites without the proper IOS Licenses, then you'll probably draw Cisco's attention and wrath of their legal team.

Forsaken_GA

DevilWAH wrote: »

Seeing how CISCO licence IOS against the hardware, it is impossible to have a licensed IOS running in GNS3, much like an OEM licence from Microsoft is only licence for the hardware it is purchased with. (you can't then dispose of the original PC, buy a new one with out an OS and use the original licence.)

Not entirely true. The IOS licensing agreement does have provisions for supplements which may extend the allowable parameters beyond being licensed against hardware.

Because of the Jeremy is suggesting you carry out an illegal activity. As far as I am aware no one has been given a licence to run on GNS3, so therefore it comes down to both Jeremy selling a video of himself committing a crime, and suggesting others do the same.

Be careful with your terminology. Infringing on a EULA is not a criminal act.

DevilWAH

OK OK enough with the exactly legal issues, I think we all agree that while running an IOS on GNS 3 is technically (in 99.99999% of cases) an infringement of the licence. We can safely say that an IOS that you have got hold of through ligitmment means (IE you purchased the hardware from cisco that you have taken the IOS from). Then CISCO are going to look the other way if you are using it for purely study purposes. After all it is in there interest for people to lean about there products.

Also yes quite right this is not criminal law, but what I believe we would call in the UK Civil law. So no cops turning up at the door (however encouraging other to break copyright / licensing could be seen as a criminal activity)

But the original questions was, does any one run, Dynamips at a remote site, as a hypervisor back end to GNS3 on a local PC?

Forsaken_GA

DevilWAH wrote: »

Also yes quite right this is not criminal law, but what I believe we would call in the UK Civil law. So no cops turning up at the door (however encouraging other to break copyright / licensing could be seen as a criminal activity)

Think that through - encouraging others to do things which aren't criminal acts may result in criminal charges?

I mean, you may be right, but I'm going to challenge you to prove that assertion if you're going to continue making it. Worst thing that would happen to Jeremy is Cisco takes some pocket money for the license infringement. If the rest of us listened to him, Cisco would have to come after us individually.

To answer your original question - no. Hardware is pretty cheap these days, we have two big beefy boxes to use for our lab mockups

tiersten

DevilWAH wrote: »

But the original questions was, does any one run, Dynamips at a remote site, as a hypervisor back end to GNS3 on a local PC?

Is there any authentication system for that? I wouldn't leave it completely unprotected...

ehnde

tiersten wrote: »

Is there any authentication system for that? I wouldn't leave it completely unprotected...

Yes there is, and it's fairly easy to set up. Because GNS3 runs well on linux and windows, you can have an instance of the hypervisor running on all of your computers and have the routers on each hypervisor talk to each other.

BrainBump.net >>> GNS3: How to run multi-pc topology using distributed hypervisors | CCIE Quest

Heero

Keep in mind that it isn't really in Cisco's best interest to go after people for using unlicensed IOS images in dynamips. One of Cisco's selling points is their huge base of IT professionals who know Cisco and have Cisco certs. Go after people who are using these images for educational purposes and your base of trained professionals will drop over time.

It's not as if Dynamips will ever be remotely able to simulate routers in any type of production network. It really is only good for labs.

Cisco will keep its strong and stern language about IOS licensing in their agreements, but they will also look the other way to people using IOS images for dynamips (and even home labs made up of used equipment). It is simply in their best interest.

CCIEWANNABE

DevilWAH wrote: »

I was thinking that .

I was shocked that Jeremy on his new CBT nuggets videos plugs GNS3.. and even included GNS3 lab topologies. I can't Imagen CBT would have allowed it with out being sure CISCO would not come back on them for it. So my feeling is that CISCO might no publicly discuss GNS3, they at the same time are happy for it to exist and be used.

I can tell you first hand that Cisco does not care if you use GNS3, although they won't come out and say it. I have contacted Cisco's Legal Department first hand and asked them if what I was doing was ok, and they could have easily shut down my business right then and there, because I had my link to my youtube site and the link to my ebay store.

The response I got from Cisco was pretty much, "do what you want with GNS3, we are looking the other direction"

You have to think of it from Cisco's perspective which is, the more people that get trained up on their equipment, the more $$$ they end up making. Also, the more Cisco Certs people will take with the exposure of GNS3.

The final point with GNS3 is that Cisco knows that you cannot run GNS3 in a real production environment.

Anyways, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, since I have been down the road with Cisco's Legal Department for months early this year and they were pretty cool about everything.