CCIE or not?

CCIEfreshertobe

Greetings all,

I have been seriously considering climbing the mountain to be
CCIE. From reading numerous threads here and other places, I
get the sense that while it is perhaps not as lucrative as in 2008
and earlier, and while many 'brain dumpers' have devalued this
mark of distinction some, that it is still perhaps a good way to
break into IT.

I already have a B.A.Sc in EE, and did my MCSE back in 'the day',
so I've had a little bit of lab experience. My question is this.
Would a CCIE give me enough leverage on its own to break me
into _A_ job in this field? So much of what I've seen on job postings
demands job experience which I do not have. Still, this cert should
be enough to give me an in, shouldn't it? Not necessarily a high paying one, but how likely is it that this cert will give me a start? Also, for what
its worth I am interested in the security designation.

Thanks much,

Fresh

mikej412

Which track are you considering? How long are you planning on taking? And will you be working or going for your Masters Degree during that time?

Are you going to go through the Associate Level Certifications and Professional Level Certifications as part of your CCIE Written/Lab preparation? Or are you going straight to the CCIE since there are no prerequisites and it's only strongly encouraged, not required, that you have 3 to 5 years of job experience?

If you actually think that you'll like the CCIE preparation and CCIE Life Style, have you considered taking your B.A.Sc EE and applying to Cisco, Juniper, or HP now -- and then worry about certifications later?

The CCIE R&S is still not a best practices lab -- so while you may have mastered the "CCIE Tasks" for the exam, applying some of them in real life will get you fired and laughed at by experienced CCNPs.

With no networking experience and a CCIE your job options may be limited. There are consulting companies that would be happy to bill you out by the hour (if you look good wearing a suit), including all your mistakes and time spent trying fix your problems. If you're lucky and have some skills, you may be able to use that experience to move up to a better company or a large global enterprise (where you could make a difference or just hide in a heap of bureaucracy).

Cisco Business Partners do have to have a number of CCIEs on staff, and they need one for every X amount of sales to qualify for an additional discount. A partner who already has enough CCIEs to service any day-to-day customer issues may opt for a "cheap ccie" to qualify for that discount (and maximize profit and the bonus pool) -- and if you are the real deal, this is where you'd want to be to get the maximum experience in the shortest time.

shodown

mikej412 wrote: »

Which track are you considering? How long are you planning on taking? And will you be working or going for your Masters Degree during that time?

Are you going to go through the Associate Level Certifications and Professional Level Certifications as part of your CCIE Written/Lab preparation? Or are you going straight to the CCIE since there are no prerequisites and it's only strongly encouraged, not required, that you have 3 to 5 years of job experience?

If you actually think that you'll like the CCIE preparation and CCIE Life Style, have you considered taking your B.A.Sc EE and applying to Cisco, Juniper, or HP now -- and then worry about certifications later?

The CCIE R&S is still not a best practices lab -- so while you may have mastered the "CCIE Tasks" for the exam, applying some of them in real life will get you fired and laughed at by experienced CCNPs.

With no networking experience and a CCIE your job options may be limited. There are consulting companies that would be happy to bill you out by the hour (if you look good wearing a suit), including all your mistakes and time spent trying fix your problems. If you're lucky and have some skills, you may be able to use that experience to move up to a better company or a large global enterprise (where you could make a difference or just hide in a heap of bureaucracy).

Cisco Business Partners do have to have a number of CCIEs on staff, and they need one for every X amount of sales to qualify for an additional discount. A partner who already has enough CCIEs to service any day-to-day customer issues may opt for a "cheap ccie" to qualify for that discount (and maximize profit and the bonus pool) -- and if you are the real deal, this is where you'd want to be to get the maximum experience in the shortest time.

I have a story about this I'm gonna share one day.

ehnde

shodown wrote: »

I have a story about this I'm gonna share one day.

Don't leave us hanging like that *shakes fist*

mikej412

shodown wrote: »

I have a story about this I'm gonna share one day.

What kind of story? Big Consulting Company bills for 2 Consultants at $250 an hour each for 6 month to NOT quite accomplish 15 minutes of work? Or small town CCIE makes good at big city Business Partner?

Fer sure you can't leave us hanging

Turgon

CCIEfreshertobe wrote: »

Greetings all,

I have been seriously considering climbing the mountain to be
CCIE. From reading numerous threads here and other places, I
get the sense that while it is perhaps not as lucrative as in 2008
and earlier, and while many 'brain dumpers' have devalued this
mark of distinction some, that it is still perhaps a good way to
break into IT.

I already have a B.A.Sc in EE, and did my MCSE back in 'the day',
so I've had a little bit of lab experience. My question is this.
Would a CCIE give me enough leverage on its own to break me
into _A_ job in this field? So much of what I've seen on job postings
demands job experience which I do not have. Still, this cert should
be enough to give me an in, shouldn't it? Not necessarily a high paying one, but how likely is it that this cert will give me a start? Also, for what
its worth I am interested in the security designation.

Thanks much,

Fresh

A small shop may be starry eyed about the CCIE and give you a start. A Cisco partner that needs another number for the books may give you an in. The problem with the latter is companies are already buying cheap overseas CCIE's to get their partner status up. Even if they cant speak acceptable English that is happening and closing opportunities and wages down for Western specialists. Such companies still need experienced experts of course, but the competition is intense for few places, the expectations enormous and the pay fizzling out. A pressure role for which you just dont have the experience.

The enterprise or service provider space would be more hostile to taking you on. The CCIE in itself can leave you cold on a slew of equipment such as 6509's, FWSM, CSM, SSL blades, Nexus, PIX/ASA, Wireless. You will get a lot of Cisco hippies telling you this can be learned and what have you, but with a hundred customers hanging off these devices and appliances the consequencies of not having rich production experience in these areas can be deadly to your profile and demonstrable ability in the field. Your peers have to feel confident in your ability in the enterprise space and for that you want years of experience doing configurations, migrations, designs and troubleshooting on live environments.

In terms of doing the CCIE, beware. Not only do you require decent intellect ( I do not know any dummies who cleared the CCIE), but you require an enormous amount of free time to prepare for the exams properly, and you must do so on a daily basis for a long period of elapsed time. You will be investing a lot of money in training materials that may only serve to empty your bank balance and line the pockets of trainers and training companies. I have nothing against trainers personally as the good ones provide excellent materials, but that is all they are, materials. Trainers cannot give you a better brain and they can't give you the time you will need to study thoroughly. Neither will they study for you or take the test for you. 95% of the *work* is done alone by the candidate. Many people invest in training materials as a comfort, but sat on a shelf in your study all day they accomplish nothing. Bootcamps are a waste of money unless you are strong going into the training through your own painstaking self study efforts. I would hazard a guess that the majority of monies sunk into CCIE training company offerings comes from CCIE candidates who are lightweight at best in terms of actual capability to complete the track. It's your money. These realities have seduced people into easy outs to obtain the CCIE in recent years as many people just can't cope with the realities of being enslaved to the command line for hundreds of hours to learn the craft properly. So the dumping of the written exam became endemic, and the growth of the real lab CCIE sites a serious problem, as was **** problems in testing centres and mass camping of candidates to share the papers. That situation damaged the CCIE creating a more hostile environment for credible numbered professionals in the field as the work of the clueless spreads disappointment and sceptism amongst employers. This happened with MCSE (Must Call Someone Else) and we see it now with many CCIE's (Cisco Certified Incompetent Engineer). So be serious before you embark on this program. Try the CCNA first and see how you get on.

Good luck!

TheShadow

I knew that this would be the most interesting thread on TE today. Mikej412 and Turgon you did not disappoint. Both of you are definitely truth speakers. Original poster, no matter what else that you hear, you would do well to save their replies and make them two of the last ones that you read in your decision process.

shodown

mikej412 wrote: »

What kind of story? Big Consulting Company bills for 2 Consultants at $250 an hour each for 6 month to NOT quite accomplish 15 minutes of work? Or small town CCIE makes good at big city Business Partner?

Fer sure you can't leave us hanging

A company from my past was pretty close to getting gold partner status. Just one IE away. Well They interviewed a few people. One of them obviously had cheated his whole way through the program. He was a avg CCNA, but nowhere near IE level. A deal was made and they asked him if he had "extra help". He did attened a bootcamp in a country overseas which will not be named and they got him through the lab. To make a long story short. They paid him a CCNA salary. Gave him CCNA level tasks, and obtained Gold Partner status at less cost.

CCIEWANNABE

shodown wrote: »

A company from my past was pretty close to getting gold partner status. Just one IE away. Well They interviewed a few people. One of them obviously had cheated his whole way through the program. He was a avg CCNA, but nowhere near IE level. A deal was made and they asked him if he had "extra help". He did attened a bootcamp in a country overseas which will not be named and they got him through the lab. To make a long story short. They paid him a CCNA salary. Gave him CCNA level tasks, and obtained Gold Partner status at less cost.

Sounds like the situation I'm in now. Company is Silver trying to go Gold. So I need to pound out the CCIE lab for them, and to be honest with my small business exploding, I just don't see a big salary increase as a huge motivation factor where others may be all over this.

Just to throw this in, why do you want the CCIE? Take a good day or two and just think this over. I have seen many CCIE's, some that know nothing and some very smart. What Kind of CCIE do you want to be? Arrogant, Helpful, Approachable, or an a@@hole.

You need to know that to get the CCIE title legitimately is going to take ALOT of work and in all honesty, once you start learning you will be surprised at the opportunities that will open up for you WITHOUT being a CCIE.

The big thing in our career field is that you need to be always learning, evolving and try to seperate yourself from others. If you can acheive this and still be a pretty cool person to be around, I say go for it!

shodown

CCIEWANNABE wrote: »

Sounds like the situation I'm in now. Company is Silver trying to go Gold. So I need to pound out the CCIE lab for them, and to be honest with my small business exploding, I just don't see a big salary increase as a huge motivation factor where others may be all over this.

Just to throw this in, why do you want the CCIE? Take a good day or two and just think this over. I have seen many CCIE's, some that know nothing and some very smart. What Kind of CCIE do you want to be? Arrogant, Helpful, Approachable, or an a@@hole.

You need to know that to get the CCIE title legitimately is going to take ALOT of work and in all honesty, once you start learning you will be surprised at the opportunities that will open up for you WITHOUT being a CCIE.

The big thing in our career field is that you need to be always learning, evolving and try to seperate yourself from others. If you can acheive this and still be a pretty cool person to be around, I say go for it!

I've been thinking about that in all honesty what am I gonna get being at a partner with a CCIE, our top engineers make more than the CCIE's due to there work they put in. The CCIE does give you a more marketable view from others though. The other guys had to pay dues, CCIE's are assumed to already have and makes movement easier imho

Turgon

shodown wrote: »

A company from my past was pretty close to getting gold partner status. Just one IE away. Well They interviewed a few people. One of them obviously had cheated his whole way through the program. He was a avg CCNA, but nowhere near IE level. A deal was made and they asked him if he had "extra help". He did attened a bootcamp in a country overseas which will not be named and they got him through the lab. To make a long story short. They paid him a CCNA salary. Gave him CCNA level tasks, and obtained Gold Partner status at less cost.

A lot of it about Im afraid. I have been somewhat lucky with my CCIE interaction over the years having worked alongside or in the same department as 6 different R&S CCIE's. All were timeserved and even arguably the weakest had accomplished a good deal in the field, with the best ones being very good indeed. That said I have worked in the telco/CRM/SP space the last seven years. All six have been good to work with on different levels and in various ways being around them helped me reflect on and improve my own studies.

gorebrush

What are your reasons for wanting it?

One of the big ones for me is the pure personal achievement! (Is that wrong?)

I attained the MCSE this way (And I have 6 years of Sys Admin experience to go with it mind you...)

jovan88

people need to realize the CCIE isn't a golden ticket.

On my personal experience I can tell you as a CCNP, when people know you're certified they kinda expect you to know everything. And if you don't know something, it looks pretty bad. You can't say "I don't know anything about an ASA, it wasn't on the CCNP track!".

I can't even imagine what people would think of a CCIE who didn't know the real world art of network engineering.

Go for the experience or a lower end cert before your EXPERT certification.

Turgon

jovan88 wrote: »

people need to realize the CCIE isn't a golden ticket.

On my personal experience I can tell you as a CCNP, when people know you're certified they kinda expect you to know everything. And if you don't know something, it looks pretty bad. You can't say "I don't know anything about an ASA, it wasn't on the CCNP track!".

I can't even imagine what people would think of a CCIE who didn't know the real world art of network engineering.

Go for the experience or a lower end cert before your EXPERT certification.

In 2000 it was a golden ticket because it was a new thing. IT was a new thing back then with many companies borrowing heavily requiring people to install lots of things that not a whole lot of people inhouse really understood. People winged it for a couple of years, got certified and then became instructors in things they were actually not *that* experienced in! It's 2010 and a lot has changed. The technologies have matured and many people have come through. Today a CCIE is expected to *deliver* a great deal, but set against that is an expectation from both companies and peers that is timeserved *and* based on a backdrop of experience fighting with technology installations both good and bad over the last 10 years.

In otherwords the *ask* of CCIE's is much harder today than it was 10 years ago when it was 'gee whizz, you're a CCIE, ok buddy whatever you say!'.

The infrastructure is in, you have hundreds of customers and the packets are flowing. Screw that change up or make the wrong call on a technical migration and you pay millions in broken SLA penalties. No pressure.

Study hard, get real experience and dont rush or your ass will get burned

TheSuperRuski

Turgon wrote: »

In 2000 it was a golden ticket because it was a new thing. IT was a new thing back then with many companies borrowing heavily requiring people to install lots of things that not a whole lot of people inhouse really understood. People winged it for a couple of years, got certified and then became instructors in things they were actually not *that* experienced in! It's 2010 and a lot has changed. The technologies have matured and many people have come through. Today a CCIE is expected to *deliver* a great deal, but set against that is an expectation from both companies and peers that is timeserved *and* based on a backdrop of experience fighting with technology installations both good and bad over the last 10 years.

In otherwords the *ask* of CCIE's is much harder today than it was 10 years ago when it was 'gee whizz, you're a CCIE, ok buddy whatever you say!'.

The infrastructure is in, you have hundreds of customers and the packets are flowing. Screw that change up or make the wrong call on a technical migration and you pay millions in broken SLA penalties. No pressure.

Study hard, get real experience and dont rush or your ass will get burned

How is that,the respect and awe(if you will), affected over the different disciplines of the CCIE. Is any one harder than the other or more respected?

I had a friend tell me he was going for his CCVP because "Everybody needs phones" I actually met a guy today that had his CCIE Voice. He had a heavy Indian accent, and told me he spent around 15K on his CCIE lab. I wish i could have stayed to pick his brain so more, but I've learned so much by just reading this thread.

Turgon

TheSuperRuski wrote: »

How is that,the respect and awe(if you will), affected over the different disciplines of the CCIE. Is any one harder than the other or more respected?

I had a friend tell me he was going for his CCVP because "Everybody needs phones" I actually met a guy today that had his CCIE Voice. He had a heavy Indian accent, and told me he spent around 15K on his CCIE lab. I wish i could have stayed to pick his brain so more, but I've learned so much by just reading this thread.

The same expectation of a CCIE applies regardless of which track the CCIE holder has. We live in an age where MCSE and MCITP is confused. Many people dont even understand there are different CCIE tracks.

But if you have a CCIE you are expected to be a doctor of networking. So be a good doctor or expect to be struck off. For that, patience, ability, humility, work ethic are all required.

mikej412

jovan88 wrote: »

people need to realize the CCIE isn't a golden ticket.

I think people are -- especially the mediocre ccnps and ccnas "with numbers."

My guess as to why there is a drop in the number of active CCIEs is that the people who bought a ccie number in the past have found out first hand it's not a golden ticket -- and it isn't worth (or they can't afford) the cost of a **** and written exam to keep it active.

aldous

mikej412 wrote: »

I think people are -- especially the mediocre ccnps and ccnas "with numbers."

My guess as to why there is a drop in the number of active CCIEs is that the people who bought a ccie number in the past have found out first hand it's not a golden ticket -- and it isn't worth (or they can't afford) the cost of a **** and written exam to keep it active.

Hope so. CCIE does seem to be a big tick box in the UK job market atm which i'd consider the main reason to do the NP, NA its no good with lots of experience if the HR guy shoves you in the reject bin because you didn't tick a box.

so long as you relise its no golden ticket whatever reason you chose is fine i.e personal achievement etc evn if you study part way and decide not to if its done properly the knowledge will still be there and thats the key thing not a number or bit of paper. you can never have to much knowledge