Employer promoting the use of **** & illegal software

vCole

Hey all,

Not really sure what to do in this situation (since well, I've never been in this situation).

I work for a MS Silver Partner (small consulting firm, 5 techs total) - they use illegal (cracked, not even just reusing legit licensing!) for internal and client software.

I feel very, very uncomfortable with this. It makes my stomach turn. Also, after a conversation (since I am the only one who holds over a MCP) he was promoting the use of brains ****, and cheating.

All of this just feels VERY uncomfortable. I have only been here a month, so I do not know what to tell future employer's (of course I'm looking for a new gig) about what happened? They say not to speak negatively about an employer.


Thoughts?

RobertKaucher

FadeToBright wrote: »

All of this just feels VERY uncomfortable. I have only been here a month, so I do not know what to tell future employer's (of course I'm looking for a new gig) about what happened? They say not to speak negatively about an employer.


Thoughts?

I was in a similar situation once and everyone with whom I have spoken about it with in interviews undestood. It seems all the people I discussed this with in interviews understood that I was not bad mouthing an ex-employer but was involved in a real situation and took the ethical choice rather than the easy one.

Especially with partners this is VERY dangerous. I would get out as soon as possible. I just don't get why people use cracked software at all unless they did the cracking themselves - which is never the case. Turning clients' networks into potential botnets is just not my idea of a good business practice. If something like this were to come to the attention of the BSA, they would be f*-ed and their clients would be in deep water as well.

Nearly everyone has had a job they never should have taken. As long as you are clearly not badmouthing the employer, I imagine everyone you speak to will understand.

briangl

I'll give the same advice I just gave to someone with a current thread about a similar situation, Being asked to do something illegal on the job - TechExams.net IT Certification Forums

I would consult with a lawyer.

Ahriakin

Catch 22. I'd say simply say there were some ethical concerns that meant you did not feel comfortable working there anymore, do not go into detail.

arwes

Hmm, and if you called 800-RU LEGIT now they'd probably know it was you since you're new. I'd definitely call them once you put in a two week notice and see what MS would need from you to help put a stop to it. I think I've read somewhere before though that MS tends to only care about large organizations that pirate software, and might not care much about a small firm. Not worth the legal fees I suppose. I'd think they would still yank the partnership though.

Devilsbane

FadeToBright wrote: »

All of this just feels VERY uncomfortable. I have only been here a month, so I do not know what to tell future employer's (of course I'm looking for a new gig) about what happened? They say not to speak negatively about an employer.

If you had worked there for 5 years and then talked a bunch of crap about them, that would be bad. But you have been there a month, found out they do something that is against your morals, and left. As long as you don't get off on a 20 minute tangent on exactly why you hated them, you should be alright.

Politely explain the situation, and move on.

RobertKaucher

arwes wrote: »

Hmm, and if you called 800-RU LEGIT now they'd probably know it was you since you're new. I'd definitely call them once you put in a two week notice and see what MS would need from you to help put a stop to it. I think I've read somewhere before though that MS tends to only care about large organizations that pirate software, and might not care much about a small firm. Not worth the legal fees I suppose. I'd think they would still yank the partnership though.

Since they are a partner, it is likely they will care. You have to remember this is not just a small firm pirating for internal use. According to Fade they are pirating for their clients as well. Something like 5 installs of a server app such as Exchange server or SBS is likely to get MS's attention. The dumping is also a big deal, since they are partners.

vCole

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Since they are a partner, it is likely they will care. You have to remember this is not just a small firm pirating for internal use. According to Fade they are pirating for their clients as well. Something like 5 installs of a server app such as Exchange server or SBS is likely to get MS's attention. The dumping is also a big deal, since they are partners.

Yes that is correct - we have over 100+ clients as well.

Also, it is not only pirated MS software, but big companies like VMware, Symantec, etc.

arwes

FadeToBright wrote: »

Yes that is correct - we have over 100+ clients as well.

Also, it is not only pirated MS software, but big companies like VMware, Symantec, etc.

Ah, I skimmed over that part. Yeah that's a huge deal then! If it were me, I wouldn't drop the hammer on them until I had something else lined up. Otherwise you'd be competing with the 4 braindumping nincompoops for whatever else is out there when they get shut down.

vCole

arwes wrote: »

Ah, I skimmed over that part. Yeah that's a huge deal then! If it were me, I wouldn't drop the hammer on them until I had something else lined up. Otherwise you'd be competing with the 4 braindumping nincompoops for whatever else is out there when they get shut down.

Well, I'm the only one with more than a MCP - so I'm not too worried.

jtoast

I wouldn't sweat the "previous employer" question. Hell, you were there a month. Leave it off your resume.

vCole

jtoast wrote: »

I wouldn't sweat the "previous employer" question. Hell, you were there a month. Leave it off your resume.

But then I run into the same issue everyone's talking about - employers don't want to hire someone without a job.

mikedisd2

FadeToBright wrote: »

All of this just feels VERY uncomfortable. I have only been here a month, so I do not know what to tell future employer's (of course I'm looking for a new gig) about what happened? They say not to speak negatively about an employer.

Simple.

HR Goon: So, why did you leave your last job?

You: I couldn't agree to their work ethics / I'm seeking a company with a high standard of business practices / matches my own level of business ethics / maintains a strong business acumen, or something.

You have an extremely good reason for leaving a company, any potential employer worth working for will be in agreement with your decision.

Devilsbane

You have an extremely good reason for leaving a company, any potential employer worth working for will be in agreement with your decision.

Exactly. That might keep you back from some places, but you would want to just quit those places too. Saves you the hastle.

Paul Boz

My last place of employment was pretty much 99% pirated or unlicensed software or using non-professional free licensing in a professional role. In such a case having a job is better than not having a job, especially when its not my ass on the line if it gets found out. My take on it is this: I may morally object to something, but if its relatively benign (software piracy or dumping versus something like child labor law violations) its just not worth the hassle to my bottom line. Helping Microsoft recover lost revenue isn't my job, providing for my family is. Obviously I would prefer to not see those things happen but I am not the morality police and I don't sleep any better or worse at night knowing piracy and dumping is happening.

Hypntick

Paul Boz wrote: »

My last place of employment was pretty much 99% pirated or unlicensed software or using non-professional free licensing in a professional role. In such a case having a job is better than not having a job, especially when its not my ass on the line if it gets found out. My take on it is this: I may morally object to something, but if its relatively benign (software piracy or dumping versus something like child labor law violations) its just not worth the hassle to my bottom line. Helping Microsoft recover lost revenue isn't my job, providing for my family is. Obviously I would prefer to not see those things happen but I am not the morality police and I don't sleep any better or worse at night knowing piracy and dumping is happening.

Some people can live with it, some can't. For myself, generally as long as I'm covered and not legally or professionally liable and I need the job I can look the other way. Now, if I can in someway be held liable, you better believe i'm going to say something.

Paul Boz

Hypntick wrote: »

Some people can live with it, some can't. For myself, generally as long as I'm covered and not legally or professionally liable and I need the job I can look the other way. Now, if I can in someway be held liable, you better believe i'm going to say something.

Which is why I said that as long as its someone else's ass I'm going to turn an eye.

erpadmin

I'm sure this isn't FadeToBright's case, but I have to ask something.

The "moral objection" to working with pirated software...does it come from wanting to be an ethical person? Or does it come from laziness/an easy out to not want to do any work?

Again, I'm not trying to make anyone cry/be angry here...I'm asking what I feel are legitimate questions...I just question the motive for the source of the "moral objection" to using pirated software.

RobertKaucher

Paul Boz wrote: »

Which is why I said that as long as its someone else's ass I'm going to turn an eye.

If you are being asked to install it, it's more than turning an eye.

At what point should one not do things because they are wrong, and not out of a fear of getting caught or having consequences? The idea of working for someone who believes it is ok to **** a vendor out of cash because he believes he will not get caught really bothers me. I am a consummate atheist. I do not believe that the center of gravity for one's moral compass should be consequences - obviously not divine, certainly not mortal - but a desire to live in a certain type of world. Using pirated software for business purposes is stealing. While I can appreciate the grey area that this might represent, I personally feel like this is the same as someone asking you to go talk to a sales clerk while he lifts some product. You are still participating in the crime. Since I am basically a software developer and my company’s principal products are all IP I guess I see this a little differently. My work and effort are undervalued because some guy is a DB and his lackeys are all willing to go along with it. But it’s a victimless crime, right? I mean who cares that I have student loans, my kid’s medical bills, and my house is underwater…

brad-

I would just stay quiet about it and move on.

1 - you dont want to call any negative attention to yourself being associated with it, or let future employers think you are going to put the screws to them for any little thing.

2- you have to think about what your mind would do knowing you were the catalyst to make a number of people lose their jobs.

I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying I wouldnt want that on my concience. I agree with the others that said leave this job off your resume and keep moving forward. You were only there a month, just say you took some time to study or deal with personal matters. Nobody is going to hold a 1 month lapse in employment history against you.

Turgon

FadeToBright wrote: »

Hey all,

Not really sure what to do in this situation (since well, I've never been in this situation).

I work for a MS Silver Partner (small consulting firm, 5 techs total) - they use illegal (cracked, not even just reusing legit licensing!) for internal and client software.

I feel very, very uncomfortable with this. It makes my stomach turn. Also, after a conversation (since I am the only one who holds over a MCP) he was promoting the use of brains ****, and cheating.

All of this just feels VERY uncomfortable. I have only been here a month, so I do not know what to tell future employer's (of course I'm looking for a new gig) about what happened? They say not to speak negatively about an employer.

Thoughts?

You have had some very good progression in your career to date and landed a job with a partner. Leaving after a couple of months at this stage isn't detrimental to your career. This job has simply turned out to be a bad fit for you ethically. It happens. Simply look for another position elsewhere and explain you want to work in a more professional environment.

Asif Dasl

Seen as there are 5 techs and you are the only one with more than a single MCP, it doesn't really look like they are all that serious about certification and learning either.

If I were you I would only stay as long as I could line another gig up and find a better all round situation.

Excellent1

Follow your moral compass and get out of there at your earliest convenience. Don't go into detail about the company's practices to your future employer because that will blow up in your face. If a company gets so much as a whiff of a "boy scout" complex from a potential applicant, no matter how good they are, you'll be out. This stems from the unfortunate fact that most every company has some dirty laundry and/or shady practices and they don't want to risk someone coming in and feeling duty bound to expose.

Paul Boz

RobertKaucher wrote: »

If you are being asked to install it, it's more than turning an eye.

At what point should one not do things because they are wrong, and not out of a fear of getting caught or having consequences? The idea of working for someone who believes it is ok to **** a vendor out of cash because he believes he will not get caught really bothers me. I am a consummate atheist. I do not believe that the center of gravity for one's moral compass should be consequences - obviously not divine, certainly not mortal - but a desire to live in a certain type of world. Using pirated software for business purposes is stealing. While I can appreciate the grey area that this might represent, I personally feel like this is the same as someone asking you to go talk to a sales clerk while he lifts some product. You are still participating in the crime. Since I am basically a software developer and my company’s principal products are all IP I guess I see this a little differently. My work and effort are undervalued because some guy is a DB and his lackeys are all willing to go along with it. But it’s a victimless crime, right? I mean who cares that I have student loans, my kid’s medical bills, and my house is underwater…

It's simple. Morals and ethics don't pay my bills. If I can align morals and ethics with my job thats a plus. I'm not saying its a victim-less crime, I'm just not willing to implicate my well-being because of it.

rsutton

erpadmin wrote: »

The "moral objection" to working with pirated software...does it come from wanting to be an ethical person? Or does it come from laziness/an easy out to not want to do any work?

It may sound cliche, but I believe in "be the change you want to see", which very much means what it sounds like. For me, the long term benefits of being honest outweigh the short term benefits of dishonesty.

Plantwiz

briangl wrote: »

I'll give the same advice I just gave to someone with a current thread about a similar situation, Being asked to do something illegal on the job - TechExams.net IT Certification Forums

I would consult with a lawyer.

I was thinking this as well.

The above thread has a very similar situation.

Stay true to yourself.

FadeToBright wrote: »

But then I run into the same issue everyone's talking about - employers don't want to hire someone without a job.

Yes and no.

While hiring a person who 'currently' is employed tends to be a desirable candidate, hiring someone without current employement works especially when the candidate has a 'good reason'.

Integrity sits high with many employers. Some won't care, but there are businesses and managers who DO care how their employees carry themselves and the corporate image.

If you are also going to school (and you were last I read) than you might use that to your advantage as well and work on another course or two in the 'down' time.

You could do some consulting on your own and take a client at a time while working on school. Things may be tight for a while, but I suspect someone with your knowledge will not be without for long.


Stay true to yourself.

rsutton wrote: »

It may sound cliche, but I believe in "be the change you want to see", which very much means what it sounds like. For me, the long term benefits of being honest outweigh the short term benefits of dishonesty.

+1

I can't rep you again (yet)


Great point!

RobertKaucher

Paul Boz wrote: »

It's simple. Morals and ethics don't pay my bills. If I can align morals and ethics with my job thats a plus. I'm not saying its a victim-less crime, I'm just not willing to implicate my well-being because of it.

I get it. I can respect the point of view. I even repped you for the commemnt before. I just disagree with its correctitude. But I understand I am not a perfect judge of right and wrong.

RobertKaucher

rsutton wrote: »

It may sound cliche, but I believe in "be the change you want to see", which very much means what it sounds like. For me, the long term benefits of being honest outweigh the short term benefits of dishonesty.

One of my friends has a great explanation of what drives him in doing what is right: "The opportunity to participate in something awesome." Granted this was an exceptional circumstance we were discussing.

erpadmin

Working for a company that **** is one thing....(that's a place I'd want to run from, as most of those guys are incompetents to begin with).

Working for a company that uses illgotten software.....well...that's a place you don't have to run from immediately. All I'm saying is, a lot of us aren't hired to be license managers...we're hired to do a job. In all honesty, where/how a company gets their software is none of my concern...as long as I'm able to do my job, I'm ok.

Having said that, if a company can't afford to license things properly, they probably can't afford other things too....like an eventual raise. At this point, I would want to bounce from a place like that anyway, but not because "pirated software is wrong...Golly-Gee-Willikers, Skip...."

MentholMoose

Ethics are only one reason to leave. If your employer is willing to steal from software vendors for their own benefit, they are more likely to do the same to you or other employees, or other entities that care about being stolen from, such as the government. Also, if they are only stealing because they can't afford the software, then they are lousy at running a business, or they are following a faulty business model. Either way, you should strongly consider leaving even if you only care about your own well-being. Now the last scenario would be the employer passing on the benefits of theft to employees, and a willingness to knowingly benefit from theft would indeed be an ethical consideration.

Paul Boz wrote: »

Which is why I said that as long as its someone else's ass I'm going to turn an eye.

I think you are discounting some of the risks. Even if you don't turn out to be legally liable for the theft (keep in mind you could still be sued and incur hefty legal fees just to clear your name), if your employer gets busted it will be a black mark on your resume. Just ask anyone who was working for Bernard Madoff how their job search has been. One of his sons who was working for him recently committed suicide, and from what I read he could not find work, and was suffering major financial difficulties, despite not knowing about the theft.

I would think for someone working in infosec, reputation would be extremely important since any employer will have to put a high level of trust in you. As a systems admin I need a lot of trust to do my job, so I care about my reputation, and if I discovered intentional theft at an employer, I absolutely would leave as soon as I could secure another job. The Madoff example is extreme, but there are many examples of companies getting busted for software theft, and nowadays you and your past employers will be Google'd as part of most any HR screen.

Asif Dasl

erpadmin wrote: »

Having said that, if a company can't afford to license things properly, they probably can't afford other things too....like an eventual raise. At this point, I would want to bounce from a place like that anyway, but not because "pirated software is wrong...Golly-Gee-Willikers, Skip...."

This is spot on, you could easily work for another MS Partner who can afford to license, views education as a worthwhile pursuit and most importantly can pay you more money. At a guess I would say they have a load of penny pinching customers not willing to spend Christmas when it comes to computers...