Is IT still a good career path or are most of us be out a job in the future

thomas130

Hi guys

The last six months this has been bothering me on whether or fact there is a future in IT in places like the Uk. I have been in IT for around 4 years and building quite of list of experience and skills for example hardware, servers, Linux, networking and now starting getting involved in programming.

Don't get me wrong I love IT but I am worry that might not be great future as I know a lot of jobs are getting exported where it is much cheaper. I know you always need people to look after stuff physically. But will these jobs be hard to find and crap pay.

Just wondering what thoughts you have from people that have been in this industry longer than me.

Thanks
Tom

erpadmin

There is a difference between an IT Job and an IT Career.

The first few years for me were working IT Jobs. It wasn't until the latter half of my career that it felt like a career.

IT is all I know how to do. I, personally, can deal with the challenges of ever changing technology.

There are a bunch of things that cannot be outsourced outside of the United States, and I'm not even talking help desk/desktop support. Certain industries are required BY LAW to house and maintain data in the United States. Of course you can outsource that work to a job shop in the United States, but they themselves cannot subcontract that work to a shop in Bangalore or Hyderabad (India).

What has worked for me was that I chose to specialize. You will find others who will say you gotta be a Jack of all Trades, but forget that. As long as I'm familiar with the other technologies (like Cisco), I can still do my job. But I don't have to configure routers/firewalls, but if I had to learn it, I could.

SteveO86

As long you don't stop learning new technologies jobs will always be there.

Besides you can't outsource the local in-person technicians that replace hardware

cyberguypr

I'm with the guys. That ever-changing element of IT is one of the main reasons why I love this field. An IT job is when you move and fix computers. IT stops being a job a becomes a career when you start finding creative solutions to business problems that will improve processes, result in saving the company money or a combination of both.

Yes, help desk, programmers and whatnot can be outsourced. But what about server/network engineers, systems architects, analysts, security professionals etc. People can argue about the stupid cloud (man i hate that word) but still, someone has to physically be there to work on the equipment. All that new cool technology will not install and upgrade itself. It's not Skynet.

Verruckt

I don't know why, but I feel like there's a rule of three with IT - the first three jobs of at least three years are jobs, and then after that it's a real career.

I say that because after that many years I don't see an IT guy doing much else - it's their career and there will always be a demand with those with the above.

No IT jobs will ever go away completely, and there will probably be an increase in demand for certain concentrations after our little lull.

Dakinggamer87

I totally agree with what others have mentioned. There will always be a need for IT people even with technologies such as cloud computing that continue to grow.

hex_omega

cyberguypr wrote: »

I'm with the guys. That ever-changing element of IT is one of the main reasons why I love this field. An IT job is when you move and fix computers. IT stops being a job a becomes a career when you start finding creative solutions to business problems that will improve processes, result in saving the company money or a combination of both.

Yes, help desk, programmers and whatnot can be outsourced. But what about server/network engineers, systems architects, analysts, security professionals etc. People can argue about the stupid cloud (man i hate that word) but still, someone has to physically be there to work on the equipment. All that new cool technology will not install and upgrade itself. It's not Skynet.

I too have grown to hate that "cloud" word. I feel it's always been a buzzword.

You are absolutely correct with your post though.

Turgon

thomas130 wrote: »

Hi guys

The last six months this has been bothering me on whether or fact there is a future in IT in places like the Uk. I have been in IT for around 4 years and building quite of list of experience and skills for example hardware, servers, Linux, networking and now starting getting involved in programming.

Don't get me wrong I love IT but I am worry that might not be great future as I know a lot of jobs are getting exported where it is much cheaper. I know you always need people to look after stuff physically. But will these jobs be hard to find and crap pay.

Just wondering what thoughts you have from people that have been in this industry longer than me.

Thanks
Tom

I would be cautious of people saying certain things cannot be outsourced. The technology is there to do it and it's constantly advancing as an enabler. If the perceived saving argument is powerful enough ways will be found and legislation revisted to make outsource possible either onshore, near shore or offshore. If a government has a stake in a US service provider, the lobby is powerful enough and the safeguards are in place the work could move out.

With the technology in place, all that is required is the legislation to leverage it.

In fact we are possibly on the cusp of the second great purge in IT. The last one circa 2000 - 2002 jettisoned many people from the industry. They tried plumbing instead and it didn't work out. This second one will be different because the technologies are maturing fast to make some of the options that bonus hungry executives wanted on the table back then a more realistic possibility today.

The money in support has been hemorraging since 1999. The trend will continue. Cloud isn't mature yet but the super datacentre and global provisions are improving. We will see more companies ability to hire local support staff crushed in the years ahead as globalisation continues. Small companies owned by larger parent companies with first regional followed by global IT policies that dictate what a local site can buy (practically nothing so budgetary power gone there) and what local IT staff they can recruit (practically no one as economies of scale support contracts will be in place to despatch spares + engineer to site across the company, with remote support provided at head office but later outsourced). In house software development will continue to be demolished. If your company wants an online hotel booking system you simply link your intranet to a provider of that service.

Of course the process to make all this happen does create some jobs and providers do need people. Just dont expect many of the roles there to pay well as they have to remain competitive. But this in no way counters the deadly embrace on opportunities for bespoke IT departments that have grown from practically nothing and done such a stirling job the last 15 years. They will lay people off and many will vanish.

The glass ceiling between support and design will get thicker. Once the support space has been largely destroyed by the beancounters the squeeze will take place on design and project managers so there will be plenty of layoffs there.

So are there great careers in IT? Sure, who doesn't work in IT in one form or another these days. It has absorbed a lot of people since traditional employers such as manufacturing have disintegrated. The trick is to position yourself where things are happening. I caveat the above statements by saying that with an industry this big there will be pockets of resistance so if you are lucky you may avoid a great deal of the changes that will come in over the course of the next 10 years and end up laughing all the way to the bank. But dont count on it! I expect the general public sector to get hammered, the general private sector to struggle. Banking will prosper. The security-military complex will grow with all the expense that involves for everyone. The service provider space will go through a lot of changes.

RockinRobin

^^^

Interesting!

itdaddy

thomas you are not alone; same here in the USA ..IT jobs crap pay.
since the jobs are scarce employers can low ball you!

I would like to hope that there are still good paying jobs out there for the hard working....IT dude

I hate the world cloud too it means to me Ghost management of your networks...
who really knows where you stuff is going? you are trusting and ISP and every one can be bought now a days...so I think your own personal networks should be secured even more. firewalls and IPS at each
site going into the so called cloud this is my opinon who knows who is coming int your network now.

and we have cloud stuff and man when we hosted many of our services ourselves we were down like 2 to 1 times a year only, with cloud you are depending on some big huge network of stuff that can go wrong...sucks=cloud

pitviper

Mehh, people tend to dwell too much on this stuff these days. I feel that there will always be opportunities for people who are good at what they do regardless of what field/job they perform. Do what you enjoy and embrace it. Make it a part of your life and not just a "job".

NetworkingStudent

erpadmin wrote: »

There is a difference between an IT Job and an IT Career.

The first few years for me were working IT Jobs. It wasn't until the latter half of my career that it felt like a career.

IT is all I know how to do. I, personally, can deal with the challenges of ever changing technology.

There are a bunch of things that cannot be outsourced outside of the United States, and I'm not even talking help desk/desktop support. Certain industries are required BY LAW to house and maintain data in the United States. Of course you can outsource that work to a job shop in the United States, but they themselves cannot subcontract that work to a shop in Bangalore or Hyderabad (India).

What has worked for me was that I chose to specialize. You will find others who will say you gotta be a Jack of all Trades, but forget that. As long as I'm familiar with the other technologies (like Cisco), I can still do my job. But I don't have to configure routers/firewalls, but if I had to learn it, I could.

I agree with your strategy, there will always be a need for specialization and skills that can’t be outsourced. In my opinion, making yourself stand out from the crowd will be the new standard in the coming years if IT workers want to get the higher paying jobs. Seems like more often than not, that it’s not enough to have the degree, experience, and certifications.

I get scared because I ‘m trying my best to break into the industry and it’s hard for someone with no experience. A lot of help desk jobs, even the entry level ones require experience(most of the time 1-2 years). I have a 2 year degree and my Comptia certifications(A+,S+ and N+), but that’s not enough in the economy. Currently, I’m studying for the Windows 7 70-680 certification. I have a help desk job interview on Tuesday, so I have my fingers crossed. I still think I made a good career choice, because I want a job that’s challenging mentally and has career growth. IT is always going to be changing and the IT field needs workers that are willing to change with the field.

I met a guy in school that told me he did it all, later on I found out that he worked on the help desk for 20 years. He had a job for 10 years paying $20.0 an hour doing help desk and he got laid off. Then he got a contract after that, but they let him go. He was doing his 2 year associates, but he just sounded burnt out. I don’t want to be that guy.

erpadmin

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

Seems like more often than not, that it’s not enough to have the degree, experience, and certifications.

Hmmm...so what else is there?

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

I get scared because I ‘m trying my best to break into the industry and it’s hard for someone with no experience. A lot of help desk jobs, even the entry level ones require experience(most of the time 1-2 years). I have a 2 year degree and my Comptia certifications(A+,S+ and N+), but that’s not enough in the economy. Currently, I’m studying for the Windows 7 70-680 certification. I have a help desk job interview on Tuesday, so I have my fingers crossed. I still think I made a good career choice, because I want a job that’s challenging mentally and has career growth. IT is always going to be changing and the IT field needs workers that are willing to change with the field.

I met a guy in school that told me he did it all, later on I found out that he worked on the help desk for 20 years. He had a job for 10 years paying $20.0 an hour doing help desk and he got laid off. Then he got a contract after that, but they let him go. He was doing his 2 year associates, but he just sounded burnt out. I don’t want to be that guy.

I'm gonna tell you something about help desk/desktop support: it can be the easiest and most complacent area in IT to stay in. Especially when you are that guy who became so good at his job, and have a likable personality, that he becomes the "go-to" guy when an executive, has a problem. Or, doesn't want to leave the trenches because he enjoys the people interaction too much/gets to check out some hot chicks in the field. There's really nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want to do and that's one way you will stay stay in the field for 20 years. It is that person's way of feeling "I'm important." Personally, that's not how I roll, because money is more important to me than what that cute chick in accounting thinks about me, or that CEO thanking me for fixing his crackberry. Replacing mobos/hard drives/OS refreshes wasn't in my own 20 year plan...moving up the ladder is.

So we all had to start somewhere. There will always be jobs, and the easiest place to find them are in small shops, especially if you want to "be the man..." because you're gonna be touching EVERYTHING. After a few years of doing that and getting your street cred in the IT game, you can get that money/career up. You have to figure out what you enjoy doing and then focus on doing that. After 14 years in IT, I was able to triple my initial salary, and that's without a degree, heck not even an associates. Oh, but I did do some college and some college plus experience counts... If had stayed a hard drive ninja, that would never have happened.

[ERP note to all: who started that "ninja" thing, btw?]

Priston

Companies that do the outsourcing work can outsource work to other outsourcing companies which can even still be outsourced to someone else!

Yay for Sub-subcontract work!

Anyways I agree with finding something you like and specializing. If your just "ok" with every technology then you can be easily replaced, but if your the best at a certain technology, it makes it harder to justify replacing you.

SteveO86

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

impressive post.

Anyhow, what certifications do you think are important 2-5 years from now?

Depends.. Virtualization is becoming popular so VMWare.. Wireless is making a spash with "n", Data Center stuff for larger corporations. If you want to try for the mobile market RIM has a few Blackberry certifications.

I would choose the field that interests you the most and see what's available.

xenodamus

erpadmin wrote: »

[ERP note to all: who started that "ninja" thing, btw?]

Lol...wasn't it Bl8ckr0uter with the term "password ninja"?

bertieb

cyberguypr wrote: »

Yes, help desk, programmers and whatnot can be outsourced. But what about server/network engineers, systems architects, analysts, security professionals etc. People can argue about the stupid cloud (man i hate that word) but still, someone has to physically be there to work on the equipment. All that new cool technology will not install and upgrade itself. It's not Skynet.

I'd be careful with such statements. Roles like those mentioned can be easily outsourced these days including the design, procurement, installation, configuration and maintenance of the hardware itself. I'm not wanting to sound like the harbringer of doom but the ability to do this is already in place and has matured fast for the global outsourcing providers of this world. To give a small example, I work for an outsourcing company and I have many customers who have outsourced their hosting requirements and environment to Company A, and then have arranged for Company B/C/D to provide the configuration and on-going management and support. Heck, many get Company A to do everything. As an example, we have one customer who had around 150ish dedicated IT staff and after 18 months now they have two - an IT director and a Service Level Manager, with all other positions being made redundant after out-sourcing every role including network/server admin, architects and desktop support - many of which we run via our offshore teams in India.

Outsourced services (particularly overseas) are currently of benefit to a companys bottom-line and will continue to be a favourite of the Financial Director (opportunities in a global economy they'll say). The bottom line is that most IT jobs can be outsourced and routine maintenance and support roles in general are high on the hit list.

Turgon

correct. I did a contract with network engineers based in hungary supporting the earth

thomas130

Thanks for your replys so far guys

What would you say is the best path would be to focus on at the moment I'm thinking two areas

Linux
Networking

I newer to Linux but I seem interested in both. While I do love Microsoft stuff etc people like this are dime a dozen. I also like starting to get into programming but my problem is this can be easily outsourced.

erpadmin

thomas130 wrote: »

Thanks for your replys so far guys

What would you say is the best path would be to focus on at the moment I'm thinking two areas

Linux
Networking

I newer to Linux but I seem interested in both. While I do love Microsoft stuff etc people like this are dime a dozen. I also like starting to get into programming but my problem is this can be easily outsourced.

The thing with Linux is that the shops that run them at 100% are small, compared to the shops that run Windows. Shops that have Linux/Unix will also have Windows as well, whether it's for their client O/Ses or they have servers that has a particular function. Server 2008 is trying to combat the Penguin with Powershell.

What I'm trying to say is that you should not replace Linux with Windows unless you want to work at a niche shop. Windows isn't going anywhere for quite sometime.

If Dave Chapelle were to answer this...."Microsoft has got this on lock, son!" LMAO.

Cisco Inferno

enough of being negative nancys.
my ideal is that if theres competition, you have to try your hardest to stand above the rest.

eansdad

bertieb wrote: »

As an example, we have one customer who had around 150ish dedicated IT staff and after 18 months now they have two - an IT director and a Service Level Manager, with all other positions being made redundant after out-sourcing every role including network/server admin, architects and desktop support - many of which we run via our offshore teams in India.

Out-sourcing will always be around but some jobs can't be out-sourced over seas and others you really don't want out-sourced depending on your industry. Also as Erp has said some industries can not out-source due to laws and regulations. I would imagine those networking and desktop jobs are still local since someone still has to touch the servers/pcs.

The biggest problem I've seen with out-sourcing is that not all out-sourcing companies are equal. Some get the job done with the right people while others hire anyone to to anything. Having been a temp worker and seeing a lot of temp employees from a lot of different out-source companies I can say that a good number of them don't care about the project they are on and always looking toward the next gig. Sure the job gets done but usually not as well as if the job was done in house. Who cares if the app doesn't work right since you won't be their by the time they discover it and it isn't your job to care about it. On only has to google about out-sourcing and can find hundreds and thousands of complaints about it. The thing a lot of people in charge don't look at is how much will it cost to bring it back if this fails.

The out-sourcing plan is great to make a company dependant on your company. Come in cheap and do away with all "company" assets. Then lease everything that will be replaced. Next step is increase price with next contract renewal. You now have a company that is entirely dependant on your out-source company. It will cost 2-3 times more to buy back and hire then it would to keep the out-source company regardless of how well they are doing. It would cost more to contract with another company then keep your current out-source company. It turns into a quagmire very fast. I've seen it. I temped at one company that was doing a tech refresh. They moved so slow that by the time they were finished the next refresh was about to start (2years for 600 PCs done by 4 people).

Turgon

eansdad wrote: »

Out-sourcing will always be around but some jobs can't be out-sourced over seas and others you really don't want out-sourced depending on your industry. Also as Erp has said some industries can not out-source due to laws and regulations. I would imagine those networking and desktop jobs are still local since someone still has to touch the servers/pcs.

The biggest problem I've seen with out-sourcing is that not all out-sourcing companies are equal. Some get the job done with the right people while others hire anyone to to anything. Having been a temp worker and seeing a lot of temp employees from a lot of different out-source companies I can say that a good number of them don't care about the project they are on and always looking toward the next gig. Sure the job gets done but usually not as well as if the job was done in house. Who cares if the app doesn't work right since you won't be their by the time they discover it and it isn't your job to care about it. On only has to google about out-sourcing and can find hundreds and thousands of complaints about it. The thing a lot of people in charge don't look at is how much will it cost to bring it back if this fails.

The out-sourcing plan is great to make a company dependant on your company. Come in cheap and do away with all "company" assets. Then lease everything that will be replaced. Next step is increase price with next contract renewal. You now have a company that is entirely dependant on your out-source company. It will cost 2-3 times more to buy back and hire then it would to keep the out-source company regardless of how well they are doing. It would cost more to contract with another company then keep your current out-source company. It turns into a quagmire very fast. I've seen it. I temped at one company that was doing a tech refresh. They moved so slow that by the time they were finished the next refresh was about to start (2years for 600 PCs done by 4 people).

All your points are valid but the hassles and costs of these problems are often lost in the dash to do it. If the estimated savings outweigh the costs then these issues will be written off as operational pain and appear as nothing more than a slice on a pie chart. It keeps you up all night in operations, but to an executive is nothing more than a red coloured segment on the chart that is smaller than the green one. C-level executives will continue to look at these options. We find these days that support is heading towards a vanishing point. It is constantly squeezed by companies looking for savings and profit.

This isn't a new thing, we have seen it in many industries. You boom and techs are King. Then the technologies level out once the surge is over. After that period more and more layers of management are added. Program management, platform management, security management, delivery management, customer relations management, procurement management, business continuity management, quality management, service management, change management and the bane of the engineer, project management. There is room for some of this but it has become bloated with too many people hanging on for their pensions. These folks need to justify their salaries so they create work for everyone and they love to get behind C-level initiatives. Changes in how things are done like outsourcing turns them on because it keeps them busy. In many environments what few pure techs remain in operations are overrun spending large parts of their day filling in process and explaining to all these managers what they are doing and what their work involves, instead of *doing* what they are good at and what pays the bills for everyone i.e turning the wrench on the solution. A lot of work is now done evenings and weekends because that is when the techs actually have the time to get stuff done. Once the tech has been wrung dry we will see companies start to squeeze the management layers.

So after earning your stripes in operations head to the hills and look at moving into either senior management or senior design. Getting an MBA before everyone else has one is one option, or positioning yourself in the design space where one day you will be technical lead on major infrastructure design and migration projects. Im a TDA, technical design authority myself.

bertieb

Turgon wrote: »

Once the tech has been wrung dry

Wrung dry or hung, drawn and quartered? They are both accurate either way

bertieb

eansdad wrote: »

Out-sourcing will always be around but some jobs can't be out-sourced over seas and others you really don't want out-sourced depending on your industry. Also as Erp has said some industries can not out-source due to laws and regulations. I would imagine those networking and desktop jobs are still local since someone still has to touch the servers/pcs.

The biggest problem I've seen with out-sourcing is that not all out-sourcing companies are equal. Some get the job done with the right people while others hire anyone to to anything. Having been a temp worker and seeing a lot of temp employees from a lot of different out-source companies I can say that a good number of them don't care about the project they are on and always looking toward the next gig. Sure the job gets done but usually not as well as if the job was done in house. Who cares if the app doesn't work right since you won't be their by the time they discover it and it isn't your job to care about it. On only has to google about out-sourcing and can find hundreds and thousands of complaints about it. The thing a lot of people in charge don't look at is how much will it cost to bring it back if this fails.

The out-sourcing plan is great to make a company dependant on your company. Come in cheap and do away with all "company" assets. Then lease everything that will be replaced. Next step is increase price with next contract renewal. You now have a company that is entirely dependant on your out-source company. It will cost 2-3 times more to buy back and hire then it would to keep the out-source company regardless of how well they are doing. It would cost more to contract with another company then keep your current out-source company. It turns into a quagmire very fast. I've seen it. I temped at one company that was doing a tech refresh. They moved so slow that by the time they were finished the next refresh was about to start (2years for 600 PCs done by 4 people).

All good and valid points, but if the bean counters conclude that it's more cost effective in the short/medium terms to out-source then 'you'll' quickly find yourself on the critical path of some PM's/Directors plan to 'optimise the workforce'. You are absolutely right with the dependancy stuff, the more 'sticky' the relationship comes by taking on more responsibility means longer contracts that are difficult and costly to get out of and ultimately, more revenue for the likes of the company I work for.

I do think that the out-sourcing providers are wisening their game though, in hiring more advanced and experienced staff (which hopefully I'm considered one of them) to work more closely with the customer whilst what I call the 'meat and gravy work' is farmed offshore (where possible) where labour is plentiful, cheaper and ultimately helps to maintain the margin on the account. The UK has become a big 'delivery centre' full of service delivery managers/project managers all following process and generating pie-charts for the execs whilst the operational work is done cheaply elsewhere. This doesn't necessarily apply only to out-sourcing providers either, I had the pleasure (and I use that term loosely) of working for a major, global UK based bank which does exactly that. Hundreds of PM's/SDM's running about like headless chickens in the UK, flapping at the offshore technical teams.

Certainly, I agree that quality varies a whole lot. We have trouble maintaining a decent level of skill in offshore centres as the best candidates tend to participate in a huge merry go round between the various out-sourcing delivery centres in order to increase their pay and benefits in order to improve their quality of life - and who can blame them?

networker050184

All the reasons everyone listed is why I much prefer to work for a service provider rather than in house IT for a company. The network is the business.

Claymoore

The global offshoring model will need a few things to stay in their favor if offshoring is going to continue.

1. Tax laws remain in their favor. As long as companies keep getting a tax break for moving work to other countries, that overhead reduction is an instant return.
2. Currency exchange rates and employee cost remain imbalanced. $10 buys more IT service in India than it does in the US. Should Indian rates rise closer to US rates, outsourcing will slow down. If China stops pegging their currency to the dollar, all sorts of things would change.
3. We don't go to war with them.
4. Least of all, IMO - the quality of work is comparable. If it takes twice as long, but cost 1/3 as much, you win. If it takes 3 times as long and someone beats you to market, you lose.

Turgon

bertieb wrote: »

The UK has become a big 'delivery centre' full of service delivery managers/project managers all following process and generating pie-charts for the execs whilst the operational work is done cheaply elsewhere. This doesn't necessarily apply only to out-sourcing providers either, I had the pleasure (and I use that term loosely) of working for a major, global UK based bank which does exactly that. Hundreds of PM's/SDM's running about like headless chickens in the UK, flapping at the offshore technical teams.

Correct. I fear for our young people. The technical opportunites are disappearing into the whirlpool. Mobility to the management bloat is difficult too. Many 30/40/50 somethings hanging on in that space and they are not moving anywhere soon. Until it's offshored and then they get laid off. I have seen every kind of Management offshored to cheaper workers who come from an India outsourcer and work in the UK. Yes it creates loads of operational problems and headaches for everyone, but the savings make a great pie chart. Our biggest telco employer loves to do this. I would say if you are in operations, look to be doing something completely different 10 years down the track. You may still find work as a school technician or something, but while that did once open up doors to a career elsewhere during the infrastructure boom that time has passed and there are millions of techies. Nothing wrong with that sort of work, but you will never have money, always be worried about losing your job, never be able to afford a nice car, much less a nice house. As for savings plans for retirement and your childrens future education...work two jobs.

UnixGuy

networker050184 wrote: »

All the reasons everyone listed is why I much prefer to work for a service provider rather than in house IT for a company. The network is the business.

me too ! Last thing I want to do is to spend my day making charts for executives and talk about service levels & have 3 managers managing a 'service' that's run by one technical person

Turgon

UnixGuy wrote: »

me too ! Last thing I want to do is to spend my day making charts for executives and talk about service levels & have 3 managers managing a 'service' that's run by one technical person

Service providers are going the same way. Watch And technical people dont run anything anymore. That's a management responsibility.

thomas130

Ok guys I think from reading all your above post I agree being a basic technical guy will be suicide in 10 years time.


I’m thinking about specialising moving in two areas

networking (finally site my ccna and start ccnp and security and voip
programming ( java, c++, c#, php , etc

I got a little head start in networking however I never seen any jobs compared to programming. What do you guys recommend?