Salary and Negotiating Pay Raises

snowbird4life

So here is the situation:

I'm currently 23 and I worked as an intern all of senior year about 20/hours a week while in college for a promising public company making pretty good money as an intern working flexible hours. Upon graduation, the company offered me a full-time salaried position as a Systems Admin making $41,500/year. Having researched an average salary for my position in my area I wasn't completely thrilled with this but I was happy with the offer since it was obviously way more than I had made at any other job I had had before so I accepted and began working.

Anyway, I feel like I am pretty talented and a good worker and definitely a good catch for most companies. So raise and bonus time comes around a year later and my boss has been hinting about how "huge" my raise and bonus would be so naturally I am thinking I am finally getting some recognition and better pay so I was pretty excited.

We finally have the conversation and he tells me that I am getting a 8.02% raise to $45,037/annually. Wooo not too bad right? Except when I look over the compensation summary sheet, here is the breakdown:

2011 Compensation Summary:

Current Salary: $41,500
Merit increase: 2.50% $1,037
EMV Adjustment: 6.02% $2,500
New Salary: $45,037

EMV(Estimated Market Value): $56,400
Compa-ratio (Salary/EMV): 80%

So in reality, they had given me a 2.50% merit increase and a 6.02% ajustment which just barely brings me to 80% of my EMV(Estimated Market Value) for my position. If you do the math you will see that with the 2.50% merit increase and the 6.02% adjustment increase I am just barely rounded to 80% of my EMV. I knew that I was probably being underpaid for my position but being right out of college even and that it was never stated on anything official I just kind of went with the offered salary without any negotiation. While I am grateful for the 8.02% "raise", I feel like in reality I didn't really get a raise, just a 8.02% adjustment to bring me up to 80% of my EMV, which is the companies stated compensation policy and really isn't that great for a very successful company who's stock has been basically doubling the past three years and is growing very rapidly. The company has a well-stated policy of paying employees 80%-120% of their EMV for their salary. So I am not really that thrilled with this "raise" to be honest, considering it just brings me to 80% of my EMV.

On top of this, they informed me that an HR auditor had looked at multiple job titles in our company and concluded that to be in compliance with the Fair Labor Standards Act that my job and several others had been changed from an SEE (Salary Exempt Employee) to an SNE (Salary Non-Exempt Employee) and now I would still make a salary but I would have to put in my time every week and if I work overtime, I would be paid overtime in accordance with state law. Oh and because I was now SNE my position only qualifies for a 6% bonus this year instead of the previous 8% I got the year before.

The conversation with my boss basically went something like "Sorry man, I just found out yesterday we had to change you to SNE. I feel bad since it kind of overshadows your large "raise" you are getting."

What is my play here? I feel like the company does recognize my talent to an extent. I feel like I probably get less respect and pay because I am so young and I am a first year employee (counting my internship I've actually been there over two years) and am thus given some tasks because I am simply the lowest or newest to the department but I feel like I am way more talented than the employees I work with and have a ton of potential. I think the company realizes this to an extent. A document a coworker showed me listed me as "Strong Potential" on some sort of talent development review he had.

However, I feel like only making 80% of my EMV is kind of lowballing me and the change in status from SEE to SNE (and 8% to 6% bonus downgrade) is a downgrade as well. I don't want to be overly greedy and I don't expect 120% of my EMV and I certainly am grateful but it makes me wonder if I just take this, will I be taken advantage of in the future? For example, they could easily just give me a 2% or 2.5% merit increase year after year while I am still well below my EMV.

Researching other jobs in my area, I feel very confident that I could attain a position making more money. I think it would be fairly easy to get a job making $55k/year and possibly even up to $65k/year. However, my current job offers some nice perks like $7,500/year tuition reimbursement which is helping me attain a MBA but you have to work a year after the money is reimbursed or you will need to pay it back when you leave the company. Also, they offer a large locked in discount on our stock which is effectively doubling my money everytime I purchase some through our company plan so my new job would have to offer a significant pay increase for it to be worth it IMO. Also, some things such as connections and relationships built at my current company are invaluable IMO.

So my options are to:

1) Find a new job making a higher base salary.
2) Find a new job making a higher base salary and see if the chance of leaving my current position will help me get a larger raise/promotion.
3) Don't say anything and just take what I got.
4) Discuss the raise and ask for more.
5) Keep taking advantage of the free training, education, and certifications and leave at a later point if I am not compensated better.

Sorry for such a long post, I just wanted to include all details that seemed relevant to the situation.

Thoughts anyone?

networker050184

I think you are over thinking the whole thing. Are you happy with your job and salary? If not find a new job. Who gives a crap about EMV or some other percentage. I don't really know what my EMV is, but I know what I want to make and what I want to do for a living. As long as I have that I'm happy.

shaqazoolu

I read the first half of the OP and stopped when I saw how long it was so I apologize if something is already addressed. Networker pretty much has it simplified down to about as complex as it should be.

You got double the percentage raise that I just did, mine was the second highest across the company and I'm pretty awesome at my job so I wouldn't knock it too hard. I think I am vastly underpaid for the skill required and the amount of work that I do (moreso the amount of work than the skill), but I love this work and I will not be able to get this amount of experience this fast doing anything else, so I stick around. I asked for more and I had good reason to, but I still didn't get anything. I got 3 certs last year, I'm now one of the most senior guys in the whole place and I have been handling responsibilities that I shouldn't have until I get promoted at least one level higher, if not two for about 6 months now. In fact, when I asked, I was told that not only was I not getting anything, I was going to keep the extra responsibility. However, they will be taking another look at it in July, but I suspect that bump will be just as insignificant as this most recent one was.

Again, ultimately it boils down to how much you like what you do. If you hate it, go for something else that pays more. Otherwise, it's probably a good idea to stay put and make yourself more valuable for whoever is willing to pay for it down the road. I've heard the only way you get a raise in IT is to switch jobs, but it's also important to remember that a lot of places value stability when reviewing your resume for a position so don't hop around too much too fast. In my situation, it's probably going to take me having another job offer on the table to squeeze any more cash out of them, so that's probably what I'm going to end up having to do. Or I could just move to another state to do the same thing and likely double my salary. Not sure why I haven't done that yet. For me, the amount of experience I get, the cert reimbursement, the people/networking and the atmosphere are worth a little less money right now. Once that changes, I'll make a move.

ConradJ

Dude, where do you live? That will dictate an awful lot of the answers you will get here!

ibcritn

Same thing happened to me....sys admin started at 40 promised more got 45.

I left and my pay has more then doubled within 6months.....can't say you'll experience the same thing, but you might want to consider another job if you aren't happy.

Alif_Sadida_Ekin

Can I ask if this is your first IT job? What is your past experience like?

CodeBlox

Psh, I'd be happy (at the moment) with 45k. I make only 10k but I do live at home! Working on getting a help desk job to at least get IN!!!

Monkerz

Dude, I started out at $26,000 a year working on a help desk. After 3 years I was only at $36,000. I didn't get bonuses and 2% was my annual increase. The employer did not pay for any training. After years of hard work, proving myself to management, and taking **** from everyone. I am finally at a salary I am happy with and a job title that makes me feel "special".

This salary I am at, it still well below what you are expecting to make after a year of working in the IT field.

Jobs are hard to come by now a days. If you think you can find a better job making more than you are not minus the perks you are getting, then by all means do it, but remember what you will be giving up.

No one starts at the top...

BTW, I would kill to get paid overtime.

snowbird4life

My past experience is really good for someone my age. I've had 4-5 IT jobs. Most of them were either temporary or part-time because I was in college full-time. Some were full-time during the summer or when I had more time. I've worked as a desktop support intern, technical support analyst, desktop support tech, another technical support analyst job before getting the internship with my current company and over a year later getting hired as a Systems Administrator once I graduated college. I felt I could have been a Systems Administrator a lot earlier in my career but unfortunately I still had several years of schooling left.

I agree with what some of you have said to an extent - If you are happy with your job and salary, stay put. If not, find a new job but I think that is oversimplifying things. I think many people stay put for years instead of simply asking for a raise or seeking a new job and higher salary elsewhere. I'll be honest, i'm young and money is important to me as is advancing in my career as fast as possible.

I like what I do but I am certainly itching to move on to more advanced and more challenging tasks. I keep getting more responsibility and more tasks and i'm certainly taking advantage of the free training/certs education but I feel like with my salary i'm being taken advantage of or taken for granted to an extent.

"I left and my pay has more then doubled within 6months.....can't say you'll experience the same thing, but you might want to consider another job if you aren't happy."

Could you tell me a little more about your particular situation? What do you do now? Similar to what you did before? It's weird, I like my company and the company is performing extremely well and growing fast but I feel like because of my age i'm being somewhat taken advantage of.

snowbird4life

Haha I agree. The being paid overtime thing I think will actually be really nice. I worked a lot of overtime and nights/weekends on projects where I wasn't being paid anymore as an SEE.

I know everyone has to work their way up and i'm certainly not saying I should just be given everything, but there are plenty of jobs and growth in my area and I am confident in my ability to get another job, even one paying a higher salary. I'm more trying to figure out how to handle this particular situation. I don't know if it is worth it to leave because of all the perks and how well I know the people and systems at my current job but I also don't want to continue being taken advantage of. If I continue like this, who knows what will come next year. Next year and the year after they could offer a measly 1% or 2% raise while the company is doing extremely well and I am clearly being paid below my market value.

ibcritn

snowbird4life wrote: »

My past experience is really good for someone my age. I've had 4-5 IT jobs. Most of them were either temporary or part-time because I was in college full-time. Some were full-time during the summer or when I had more time. I've worked as a desktop support intern, technical support analyst, desktop support tech, another technical support analyst job before getting the internship with my current company and over a year later getting hired as a Systems Administrator once I graduated college. I felt I could have been a Systems Administrator a lot earlier in my career but unfortunately I still had several years of schooling left.

I agree with what some of you have said to an extent - If you are happy with your job and salary, stay put. If not, find a new job but I think that is oversimplifying things. I think many people stay put for years instead of simply asking for a raise or seeking a new job and higher salary elsewhere. I'll be honest, i'm young and money is important to me as is advancing in my career as fast as possible.

I like what I do but I am certainly itching to move on to more advanced and more challenging tasks. I keep getting more responsibility and more tasks and i'm certainly taking advantage of the free training/certs education but I feel like with my salary i'm being taken advantage of or taken for granted to an extent.

"I left and my pay has more then doubled within 6months.....can't say you'll experience the same thing, but you might want to consider another job if you aren't happy."

Could you tell me a little more about your particular situation? What do you do now? Similar to what you did before? It's weird, I like my company and the company is performing extremely well and growing fast but I feel like because of my age i'm being somewhat taken advantage of.

Before I did sys admin stuff (Microsoft, Citrix, VMware, Sonicwall, Juniper SSL VPN, etc) was brought on at 40K was promised a lot more at the time. Worked hard and was recognized as a top performer and only saw 45k....because apparently the person who handled the money switched (yikes! small company /outsourced CFO who didn't know me)

So I switched into the security field because I love it....saw a 50% jump....was very passionate about skill advancement/certs and pushed hard got CISSP, CEH, etc few others within 6 months and performed and lead the team. I was then promoted to Team Lead and saw another 50% jump.

All within a 7month time frame....point being I was sorta in your shoes 7 months ago....I asked for more they didn't do it, so I looked elsewhere and followed my passion which allowed me to excel in the role, which lead to a promotion.

CamtheChamp

They actually announced pay cuts across the company at my job recently and ended up giving my entire team a 20% raise to get us to 80% EMV. They then made us take furlough which took away the 20% raise and then they delayed the next merit increase by 6 months so we came out behind in the end.

The point: I wish I was in your position.

Forsaken_GA

ibcritn wrote: »

No before I did Citrix,VMware, and M$ server admin, but I also did firewall stuff, VPN, w/e needed to get done They promised me a lot more then 40k like the 60k + bonus range when I came on....I worked hard, but they only did 45k.

I was very passionate about security, so I sought after a security role. At that point I got in at 50% more in pay....then worked very hard at work and outside work to gain skills (Got CEH, CISSP, few others) within 6 months my salary jumped up another 50% and unlimited overtime....basically my pay 7 months ago was a lot less then it is right now.

I did switch fields, but I also made some pretty big accomplishments as far as skills/certs go....I was promoted to the Lead in my new job within the first 6months....which is how the $$ increased.

You fell into the trap of believing that if you work harder, you'll get paid more.

There are alot of companies out there that are more than willing to let you work yourself to death without giving you an extra cent. I went three years at my last job without a raise, and I would have been HAPPY to be at 80% of my EMV for my position.

You need to explain to them that you're unhappy with your compensation, and you'd like them to do something about it. I would have a healthy emergency fund and at least one other job offer on the table before I had that conversation, but that's your call. You need to decide whether you like your job enough to stay there and continue to get lowballed. If it's something you simply cannot get past, you're going to need to face the reality that if you want more compensation, you're likely going to have to change jobs. It'd be nice if all companies recognized their talent and worked to keep it, but in the ends, it's a numbers game, and if they think they can get more performance out of you without more compensation, they'll do it.

networker050184

snowbird4life wrote: »

I agree with what some of you have said to an extent - If you are happy with your job and salary, stay put. If not, find a new job but I think that is oversimplifying things. I think many people stay put for years instead of simply asking for a raise or seeking a new job and higher salary elsewhere. I'll be honest, i'm young and money is important to me as is advancing in my career as fast as possible.

No offense, but you sound like almost every other new jack out there with a few years of experience. The money and advancement will come with time. Unfortunately, a lot of times with higher paying positions if you don't have the years on your resume it doesn't matter what you know because you won't get past the filters. Its the nature of the beast. There are people who don't know jack raking in the big bucks just because they have "been doing it for 15 years." If you can move up to bigger and better things now, go for it. Don't get discouraged if it takes some time though.

Forsaken_GA

snowbird4life wrote: »

Haha I agree. The being paid overtime thing I think will actually be really nice. I worked a lot of overtime and nights/weekends on projects where I wasn't being paid anymore as an SEE.

I know everyone has to work their way up and i'm certainly not saying I should just be given everything, but there are plenty of jobs and growth in my area and I am confident in my ability to get another job, even one paying a higher salary. I'm more trying to figure out how to handle this particular situation. I don't know if it is worth it to leave because of all the perks and how well I know the people and systems at my current job but I also don't want to continue being taken advantage of. If I continue like this, who knows what will come next year. Next year and the year after they could offer a measly 1% or 2% raise while the company is doing extremely well and I am clearly being paid below my market value.

I'm pretty sure the only folks being paid market value are the ones who actually took a hardline negotiation for it when they accepted the job. The sad truth of my experience in the workplace is that too see any appreciable gains in income, I've had to use each company as a stepping stone, only getting appreciable salary increases when I changed jobs. Wish it hadn't worked out like that, but when it comes down to it, money talks, and no one is irreplaceable.

erpadmin

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

The sad truth of my experience in the workplace is that too see any appreciable gains in income, I've had to use each company as a stepping stone, only getting appreciable salary increases when I changed jobs. Wish it hadn't worked out like that, but when it comes down to it, money talks, and no one is irreplaceable.

Same deal with me....it took me thirteen years of KNOWING jack to get me to increase my initial salary by ~$63k. However, in order for that to happen, I had to move. Between my current salary, what I currently do, plus me finally working on a BS (and soon after that a Masters), a job in management is all but assured.

Some new jack, or young buck who just graduates college expecting that same jump to happen in a year or two is only deluding himself/herself.

It takes time to earn your stripes in any career...IT especially. Especially when the pool is a large enough (still) to choose competent people from.

My advice to you, Snowbird, is to stay where you're at for another year or two, gain your experience....then look for opportunities that will get you that big salary jump. The one thing you have to keep in mind is that there is always someone out there (with more experience, to boot) that can do your job for less and will be more than happy to do it...just so that he can provide for his family or whatever. You're in a great spot right now; don't lose it to delusion.

2E151

I think you'll be better off as a SNE in the long run, if you stick with this company. In my experience SEE provides more benefits for the employer than it does the employee. The incenetive packages exempt workers got (401K plan, paid vacation,ect,ect) is now routinely offered to exempt and hourly workers alike in many lines of work.

Likewise, from my experience the "flat pay no matter how many hours you work" argument is a one way street. Employers can require you to work as many overtime hours as they deem necessary to complete a project, while your still tied to a traditional PTO or vacation package (ie: 2 weeks a year, ect).

This isn't to say that all Exempt positions are bad, I have seen some companys offer some nice fringe benefits to their SEE employees (comp time, generous 401K plans, bonuses, ect) but this has generally been the exception to the rule.

I currently work SEE and prefer it greatly. For me to take a SNE position would require a heftly benefits package to outweigh what I see as the drawbacks of straight salary work.