Obnoxious job interviewers

billyr

GT-Rob wrote: »

Good engineers, not the ones looking for their first job after they dumped a few certs, won't put up with this. I myself have no problem dealing with pressure, and actually enjoy it. I have worked as a 3rd party responsible for financial networks, trust me, I have been yelled at plenty and deal fine. However if I had an interview like the OP described, I would have NO hesitation to stand up, thank him, and walk out. If he wanted to chalk that up to someone who 'cant handle the heat' then so be it, and I wish him luck finding someone desperate (likely unskilled) enough to work with him.


This tactic might be a good way of weeding out fresh grads and people with no experience to see if they can handle real life, but to anyone else it just comes off as a dick to work for, and why would I want to when there are plenty of other companies. You are not weeding out the people who can't handle pressure, you are weeding out people who are not desperate enough to put up with BS. Want to guess why they are desperate?.

What he said.


I've almost left mid interview in the past due to a completely obnoxious interview panel member. I could tell by the slightly embarassed looks from one of the other interviewers that he wasn't faking it either for the purposes of piling on the pressure. He was just an embarrassment to himself and a very poor reflection on the company management.

I declined their offer of attending for a further interview and also had the opportunity at a later date of passing a lot of business to one of their competitors.

Mishra

I interview the interviewer as much as they are interviewing me.

If they purposely act horrible to you to try and "put you in a pressure situation" then I don't know who the real person is behind that facade. Thus I wouldn't take the job.

There are different ways to put people into that kind of pressure situation while still showing your true personality.


I would like to add that if the manager seems really awesome, but the owner is not, then you can bring up your concerns of the owner to the manager during the interview. Just be honest with him and see if he is on your side. Sometimes it's worth it to choose the awesome manager even with the boss's boss is not that great. Ask the manager about training and he might say "I know he said that but I will make him change his mind".

A great manager will shield the crap from the top so you are happy.

pert

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Since I've been called much worse things than obnoxious as an interviewer, I'm afraid I have to take up for the other side. I purposely try and make folks uncomfortable during an interview because I need to see how they handle pressure. If you can't acquit yourself during a high pressure interview, I sure as hell don't want you touching mission critical portions of my infrastructure.

You need to understand that if you're in that interview room, it's probably because you asked to be there. If it's a privately owned company, you have no right to expect to be treated how you think you should be treated. If you walk into a job interview with ANY sense of entitlement about ANYTHING, you're getting way ahead of yourself.

You decided that the job wasn't for you, and that's good. You should be interviewing the people you're asking to work for at the same time in order to make sure it's a mutual fit.

However, by coming to an internet message board and complaining because someone you were asking for a job didn't talk nice to you, you've lost a little grace. If you're really that fragile, and an interview like that gets under your skin, I wouldn't want you working with me either.

I've had people to this to me in an interview before. Here's the thing, yes the interviewer will get to see how you are under pressure. However, the interviewer gets to see that the people who work at this company are mean spirited and treat strangers with disrespect. So lets say you as the interview get lucky and find someone who doesn't mind pressure. Well If they accept the job that means they also don't mind working at a place where people are disrespectful in general, OR they don't accept because even though they are graceful under pressure they have better things to do than work form someone like that.

If your goal is really to see how they act under pressure there are SO MANY WAYS to test that out that are not disrespectful. Give them a mildly complicated problem on a sheet of paper and tell them they have 90 seconds to solve it. Ask questions that typical interviewers don't and see how they can react on the fly, there are tons of options.

Or you could just be rude, treat them like crap, and see if they still want to work there because everyone at the company is miserable and they better get used to it.

Forsaken_GA

pert wrote: »

I've had people to this to me in an interview before. Here's the thing, yes the interviewer will get to see how you are under pressure. However, the interviewer gets to see that the people who work at this company are mean spirited and treat strangers with disrespect. So lets say you as the interview get lucky and find someone who doesn't mind pressure. Well If they accept the job that means they also don't mind working at a place where people are disrespectful in general, OR they don't accept because even though they are graceful under pressure they have better things to do than work form someone like that.

I'm sorry, but I am not buying this. If your skin is that thin, I'd rather you find someplace else to work. If you expect that folks remain pleasant and respectful in a high pressure situation where hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue are being lost every minute because people are waiting on *you* to fix a problem, your expectations are highly unrealistic.

If you're enough of a prima donna that you expect 1st class treatment all the time, you can go be someone else's problem.

Mishra

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I am not buying this. If your skin is that thin, I'd rather you find someplace else to work. If you expect that folks remain pleasant and respectful in a high pressure situation where hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue are being lost every minute because people are waiting on *you* to fix a problem, your expectations are highly unrealistic.

If you're enough of a prima donna that you expect 1st class treatment all the time, you can go be someone else's problem.

It doesn't feel like a healthy debate would likely change your mind.

I would like you to note that you may be turning away GREAT engineers like people on this board because of this method. If you know that and you hedge your risks the way you think is successful, then so be it.

Some of the people I really respect will turn down jobs because of the atmosphere. Heck, some of the greatest people go to west coast companies like Google because of the benefits/atmosphere.

Mishra

I normally give that 'pressure' situation over my phone interviews.

I ask so many questions over a very wide variety of subjects that at the end of the phone screens, I've heard many people say "Whew! That was one of the hardest interviews I've done in a while".

If you pass my phone screens, normally I'm very light in the in person interviews. I already know you know your stuff (or maybe not, depending on the position) so I don't need to be super technical or difficult during the interview. The interview is mostly to determine what kind of person you are and how well you will fit in the group. It's also for you to see if you want to work at the company.

If I like the person, I catch myself sometimes trying to sell the job position to the interviewer. "We have a very intelligent staff and we are all very dedicated. This is a great group to work in." kind of thing.

networker050184

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I am not buying this. If your skin is that thin, I'd rather you find someplace else to work. If you expect that folks remain pleasant and respectful in a high pressure situation where hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue are being lost every minute because people are waiting on *you* to fix a problem, your expectations are highly unrealistic.

You don't expect people to remain professional during high pressure situations? Remaining pleasant and respectful is a big part of that IMO.

EMcCaleb

networker050184 wrote: »

You don't expect people to remain professional during high pressure situations? Remaining pleasant and respectful is a big part of that IMO.

I agree 100%.

I also don't know of any seasoned, skilled professional (in any career field) that would or should tolerate a rude interviewer. As others have said, that may work with some kid fresh out of school or another looking for a "break", but that won't attracts seasoned, SKILLED professionals. It is not a buyers market for the elite in our industry. How many RHCE's, OCPs and GSEs are pounding doors looking for work? Just on this thread alone, there is a wealth of experience and talent that in no way would oblige a dysfunctional interviewer. That attitude just makes one a bottom feeder IMHO.


When a surgeon goes in for a job interview, is the hospital administrator rude and obnoxious to mimic the stress of brain surgery?

andrewtariq

EMcCaleb wrote: »

I agree 100%.
When a surgeon goes in for a job interview, is the hospital administrator rude and obnoxious to mimic the stress of brain surgery?

Nice! I'd like to see a comeback to that brilliant stated line.

Forsaken_GA

Mishra wrote: »

It doesn't feel like a healthy debate would likely change your mind.

I would like you to note that you may be turning away GREAT engineers like people on this board because of this method. If you know that and you hedge your risks the way you think is successful, then so be it.

Some of the people I really respect will turn down jobs because of the atmosphere. Heck, some of the greatest people go to west coast companies like Google because of the benefits/atmosphere.

Well, try to understand, I don't actually disagree with you in principle. I've turned down jobs because I didn't think I'd like the environment, or the people I'd be working with, and I wholly support the idea that any candidate should do the same.

However, I know what my company is looking for, and I know what the environment is like. During an interview, you tend to see the candidate at their best. Any number of people can talk a good game. I'm looking at whether folks have the knowledge they claim, and whether they can handle what the job looks like at it's worst. And though I don't do it on purpose, I suppose I am giving them a look at what the job is like at it's worst.

And if they can't handle it, it's better to know about it up front, for all parties involved.

Forsaken_GA

networker050184 wrote: »

You don't expect people to remain professional during high pressure situations? Remaining pleasant and respectful is a big part of that IMO.

Would I like them to? Sure.

Unfortunately, I live in the real world.

Maybe I'm too far gone as a cynic, but you'll forgive me if I'm skeptical of the idea that the rest of you work for companies where everyone is always happy, even when things are going wrong, and going to work is an uplifting and enlightening experience. If that is true, I have to have the absolute worst luck in the world when it comes to job selection.

Forsaken_GA

EMcCaleb wrote: »

When a surgeon goes in for a job interview, is the hospital administrator rude and obnoxious to mimic the stress of brain surgery?

Probably not.

Probably should, though. I don't know if you know much about the healthcare industry, but doctors tend to pay out rather large malpractice premiums, because they tend to get sued for it.

After all, if you're the one on the table the day that brain surgeon comes into work drunk and coked up because his girlfriend left him, and he makes a tiny mistake, you'd probably wish that maybe the hospital did just a little bit better of a job at screening the folks it lets perform dangerous acts.

Forsaken_GA

Now, with all that being said, I'm sure you guys have an image of me being a screaming and raving lunatic. And that's fine, it's not true, but it's fine.

I've had plenty of candidates in front of me who have boatloads more experience, with technology I've never touched (I like those folks, because they force me to go learn about it, otherwise I can't rightly talk to them about it).

I've never had someone get up and walk out. We've never had someone decline further interviews.

We also don't have a problem with turnover. The last guy to leave the group did so because he retired. We have a few members of the team who are coming up on double digit years of service with the company. I'm the second most junior member.

I can't speak for the other departments. We have a few that have high rates of turnover, and I suspect it's because they didn't do their screening very well.

The bottom line is that, for our team, technical ability is not enough. I don't give a damn if you're a brilliant engineer, and one of maybe four people in the world that can effectively deploy a given technology. In those cases, we tend to hire folks as a consultant rather than a full time employee. If you cannot operate under our working conditions, we do not want you, and chances are pretty good, you don't want to be here either.

We are more than willing to pass on a candidate if they're not the right kind of person for the job. We absolutely refuse to compromise on our standards just to fill a seat. We like each other, we get along with each other, and there's no ego driven bullshit, or internecine backbiting. We believe in honesty and directness, and we don't pull any punches. We're fortunate that we have managers who are willing to back us up when conflict does arise between departments. It's far from Shangri-la, but it's easily the most well functioning group I've ever had the privilege of working with.

And I think it works so well because we take our time when it comes to hiring (my own saga of getting hired on lasted close to two months) and because we do not subscribe to alot of the myths that I see perpetuated in this thread.

networker050184

Ah I see, when you need a good engineer you just get a consultant. No need to hire good ones.

Forsaken_GA

networker050184 wrote: »

Ah I see you, when you need a good engineer you just get a consultant. No need to hire good ones.

You can look at it that way if you wish, that's certainly your prerogative. We just tend to have a different idea of what makes a good engineer, and hire those instead. If a person is high maintenance and thin skinned, we wouldn't be doing anyone any favors by hiring them on.

For the sports fans, I can sum this up a better way - we are more than willing to pass on a Randy Moss if we can hire a Wes Welker instead.

joneno

cmon guys more posting, im enjoying this debate...ha ha ha.

lockdnloaded

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

For the sports fans, I can sum this up a better way - we are more than willing to pass on a Randy Moss if we can hire a Wes Welker instead.

I think everyone agrees with you on that point. I know I do. With that said I would take Brady over both of them and I bet he wouldn't put up with to much stuff in an interview. (He can get a job anywhere!)

Forsaken_GA

lockdnloaded wrote: »

I think everyone agrees with you on that point. I know I do. With that said I would take Brady over both of them and I bet he wouldn't put up with to much stuff in an interview. (He can get a job anywhere!)

Well, Brady's an excellent example of the kind of person we like. Brady got drafted, what, 199th I think it was? Started out at 4th on the depth chart, worked his way up to 2nd, and then stole Bledsoe's job. He's never rested on his laurels or gone into prima donna mode. Hell, he restructured his own contract so that they could get around the salary cap issues and take on Moss. His work ethic and poise under pressure are unquestionable. The man is a superstar, but above all, he's a team player.

On the other side of that, you have folks like Brett Favre. Much the same as Brady, until the end of his career. Minnesota did not do him or themselves any favors by indulging his whims. They went for the short term gain of picking up a guy with boatloads of talent.... and came up short, and as a consequence they're in a horrible shambles at the position (Ponder may prove me wrong, but I doubt it)

networker050184

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

For the sports fans, I can sum this up a better way - we are more than willing to pass on a Randy Moss if we can hire a Wes Welker instead.

Sounds more like you are just looking for a push over to me. There is a difference between having a good level head under pressure and taking crap off of someone. Especially in an interview for a higher level position where you are selling the company to the interviewee as much as they are selling themselves to the company.

Everyone

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Probably not.

Probably should, though. I don't know if you know much about the healthcare industry, but doctors tend to pay out rather large malpractice premiums, because they tend to get sued for it.

Only if it is a private practice. Doctors that work for a hospital or healthcare system, get those premiums paid for them by their employer.

Mishra

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Would I like them to?
Maybe I'm too far gone as a cynic, but you'll forgive me if I'm skeptical of the idea that the rest of you work for companies where everyone is always happy, even when things are going wrong, and going to work is an uplifting and enlightening experience. If that is true, I have to have the absolute worst luck in the world when it comes to job selection.

Our group just works. We aren't super happy when things are good, we aren't super happy when things are bad.

If it is broke, we just work to fix it. If a migrations is happening, we work to make it happen.

Breaking something is stressful in it's own right and we pride ourselves in good work. So when it is broke, we care about our work thus want to fix it and make sure it never happens again.

We hire people that are ready to come in, have pride in their work, and just work. Our environment is one that everyone is working so we don't have influences that may distract from that perception.

I think with all the other stresses of this job, if I worked in an environment where people are flipping out when something breaks, I probably wouldn't be here much longer.

Forsaken_GA

networker050184 wrote: »

Sounds more like you are just looking for a push over to me. There is a difference between having a good level head under pressure and taking crap off of someone. Especially in an interview for a higher level position where you are selling the company to the interviewee as much as they are selling themselves to the company.

You've got it exactly! We must be looking for pushovers, because despite the fact that I've been tenacious about defending what I knew would be an unpopular viewpoint for this entire thread, I'm a pushover.

Come on, man.

I think it's safe to say we have a severe difference of opinion, and there's probably no chance of changing each others mind, so it's probably best to leave it at that before it gets nasty.

Course, since I don't want to be seen as a pushover, we can go a few more rounds if you want!

Forsaken_GA

Everyone wrote: »

Only if it is a private practice. Doctors that work for a hospital or healthcare system, get those premiums paid for them by their employer.

True enough, and I acknowledge the point.

Who pays the premiums is not really an important part of my point though!

networker050184

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

You've got it exactly! We must be looking for pushovers, because despite the fact that I've been tenacious about defending what I knew would be an unpopular viewpoint for this entire thread, I'm a pushover.

Come on, man.

I think it's safe to say we have a severe difference of opinion, and there's probably no chance of changing each others mind, so it's probably best to leave it at that before it gets nasty.

Course, since I don't want to be seen as a pushover, we can go a few more rounds if you want!

We can leave it at agree to disagree. See, I'm a pushover. Want to hire me?

Forsaken_GA

Mishra wrote: »

We hire people that are ready to come in, have pride in their work, and just work. Our environment is one that everyone is working so we don't have influences that may distract from that perception.

Alright, so it sounds like you do indeed hire good people. And you probably follow a somewhat similar process. You did, after all, admit that you also try to put pressure on a candidate, you just do it during the phone screen. Truth be told, I would prefer to as well, but I'm not involved with any phone screens.

I think with all the other stresses of this job, if I worked in an environment where people are flipping out when something breaks, I probably wouldn't be here much longer.

It's not an every day thing, hell it's not even an every week thing. Again, I think y'all have entirely the wrong idea, and that's probably my fault, but depending on what's down, the invective can fly pretty fast and furious, and if someone's going to break under that pressure, rather know about it up front.

And I think y'all are also assuming that the candidate is automatically supposed to take it and not say anything at all. I've had more than one occasion where I've told someone above my pay grade to shut up and let me work, and they can yell at me about it in the post mortem. I was a whole lot more diplomatic about it than that, of course, and nothing has ever come of it.

shodown

Excellent thread. Hopefully we have all learning something new here.

LCA

Not sure where to start in summarizing my reactions to this thread of mine. I certainly didn't expect it to take the path it did.

The implication from one poster that I'm fragile made me ROFL. People who know me well are aware that I'm very single minded and used to have a very short fuse (I've mellowed a lot in recent years). Some really tough times years ago made me a much harder person. Also I've worked for hardnosed types including one company where I was just about the only person who wasn't plain scared of the CEO and I thought nothing of taking him on head on in a toe-to-toe verbal stoush.

I have enjoyed reading about interviewing methodologies. So thanks to all the people who so far have made a contribution. I think it is a very important topic.

Re the job I had numerous other serious concerns about it other than the people skills of the owner.

EMcCaleb

LCA wrote: »

Not sure where to start in summarizing my reactions to this thread of mine. I certainly didn't expect it to take the path it did.

The implication from one poster that I'm fragile made me ROFL. People who know me well are aware that I'm very single minded and used to have a very short fuse (I've mellowed a lot in recent years). Some really tough times years ago made me a much harder person. Also I've worked for hardnosed types including one company where I was just about the only person who wasn't plain scared of the CEO and I thought nothing of taking him on head on in a toe-to-toe verbal stoush.

I have enjoyed reading about interviewing methodologies. So thanks to all the people who so far have made a contribution. I think it is a very important topic.

Re the job I had numerous other serious concerns about it other than the people skills of the owner.

There's certainly no reason for you to feel compelled to defend your character. If someone determines you’re emotionally “fragile” because you rejected/complained about being treated unprofessionally then I really doubt there is much you can say to them.

apr911

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

If your skin is that thin, I'd rather you find someplace else to work.

I dont think this debate has anything to do with being thin or thick skinned individual. I consider myself to be reasonably thick skinned. I can calmly listen to some one rant and rave to me all day long and can quite respectfully tell them where they can get off and stick it (if they deserve it) but the key in that statement is the respect.

Are there people out there unworthy of the respect given them? Absolutely, respect is earned not given in my book but there is also a modicum of respect that societal norms dictate should be given in this or any other situation. Let the person earn or lose the respect from there.

From the sounds of this interview, the owner did not even have the ability to show that minimal level of respect and instead belittled questions asked by the OP that I think most people who are serious about their careers, especially in IT, would ask.

Im all for testing a person under pressure but there is pressure and then there's what this interviewer did to the OP.

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

If you expect that folks remain pleasant and respectful in a high pressure situation where hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue are being lost every minute because people are waiting on *you* to fix a problem, your expectations are highly unrealistic.

If you're enough of a prima donna that you expect 1st class treatment all the time, you can go be someone else's problem.

Do I expect folks to remain pleasant, calm, collected and respectful at all times, even when losing money? I should, but like you, I am more of a realist and recognize this wont happen.

Do I expect to be treated like a prima donna getting 1st class treatment all the time? Hell no. I dont expect 1st class treatment even some of the time but I do expect to be treated fairly

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Probably should, though. I don't know if you know much about the healthcare industry, but doctors tend to pay out rather large malpractice premiums, because they tend to get sued for it.

This says more about our society than it does about a doctor's ability to work under pressure. Interesting episode of House this past week that highlights this nicely...

Save a person's life, get sued for it because they cant do all the same things they used to do... Hey at least you're alive... But wah, I can go up and down stairs so Im suing you anyway...

Granted that wasnt what the lawsuit was "really" about but there is a lot of truth in there as well about the state of our medical system that something like that would be allowed to pass as medical malpractice.

billyr wrote: »

I declined their offer of attending for a further interview and also had the opportunity at a later date of passing a lot of business to one of their competitors.

Ahh, one of the hidden dangers of working in IT. Once you get out of the muck and start moving into the higher level positions, the community becomes much much smaller and much closer knit. Sure there are 100's of thousands of IT workers out there but once beyond the help desk and other low level roles youll find yourself working with the same people. Ive already found myself working with people Ive worked with in the past at different companies in completely different states, halfway across the country.

Moral of that, it goes both ways. Yes, treating your employees, especially your good ones may get your company blacklisted by the upper echelon of IT and may see them actively turn customers away from you but so too can the employee shoot themselves in the foot in a similar manner and find themselves blacklisted at other companies.

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

For the sports fans, I can sum this up a better way - we are more than willing to pass on a Randy Moss if we can hire a Wes Welker instead.

I think in IT we actually have an inverse effect. Unlike sports where, when you're the best, you know it. In IT it seems when you're the best, you know you're not... I tend to see the newer people to the industry as the cocky ones who think they know everything there is to know about xyz and they are the best.

Your seasoned and skilled IT workers tend to be more humble, or at least usually (there are some people out there who think they are the be all end all because they wrote a book or some other thing). You get to a point where you realize, hey I am the best at technology ABC but Im certainly weak in DEF and tomorrow there might be somebody who knows more about ABC than I do and even if they dont, there might be someone today who knows something about ABC that I dont.

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Now, with all that being said, I'm sure you guys have an image of me being a screaming and raving lunatic. And that's fine, it's not true, but it's fine.

I certainly dont. I respect what you did by playing devil's advocate and I know that is hard especially on this board on this thread.

I think the big issue is the manner in which you went about it. There's a big difference between talking down to the interviewee, being dismissive and rude versus putting someone on the spot and under pressure.

These arent always mutually exclusive ideas but Id have to imagine if you ran the entire interview being dismissive i.e. "That's silly" then you'd have a tough time filling positions.

Now if you dismissed the "Well, Im a CCNA, MCSE blah blah blah blah" with a "Thats great but..." thats a different type of dismissive which is totally understandable and anyone who has been in the industry for a while and truly knows what they are talking about wont take that harshly.

Forsaken_GA

EMcCaleb wrote: »

There's certainly no reason for you to feel compelled to defend your character. If someone determines you’re emotionally “fragile” because you rejected/complained about being treated unprofessionally then I really doubt there is much you can say to them.

So you feel I was bashing the OP?

I'm kind of curious as to why you think it's ok for the OP to bash the interviewer, but because someone speaks up with a dissenting opinion from his, *now* it's wrong?

I don't know the OP. I have no idea what kind of worker he is, what kind of person he is. I was simply responding with my viewpoint based on what he posted. It's not like I'm going to follow him around from thread to thread and pick at him for everything he says.

Fortunately, he seems to have taken it in stride, and I hope he and others understand that my initial response was not what I felt to be a statement of fact about his character, but my perception based on the situation presented.