Do certifications hold value for you, or the vendor?

DigitalZeroOne

I know this may sound off, especially coming from someone who really enjoys working in IT; but I don't really care for certifications. I remember back in 1998 I had to study to take my Microsoft exams for the MCSE, I was just getting into IT then, and it was really exciting. Having an MCSE was almost a free pass into any IT related job, as time has gone on and new technologies have emerged, coupled with new certs, my opinion on certifications has waned.

I don't think certifications really show how much someone knows, with the exception of a few certs, mainly Cisco and Redhat (Because of the hands-on approach). Most exams are basically multiple choice answer sheets that do not test real world knowledge, and just like reality shows, everyone has a cert now, and just about every vendor creates some new variation of their cert.

Of course I can definitely see the advantages in studying for certs; you are forced to learn material that you may not have otherwise learned, you get to show that you can set a goal and achieve it, it can show that you are serious about your career and education. I may be channeling my frustration at the wrong target, it's not really the certification vendor, it's more so the employer. They want x amount of years of experience, a degree, and a cert. Now don't get me wrong, I actually have the major certs and the degree and I have no problems getting a job (DoD contractor), but when I think about new people coming in, there is just so much that they need to get in the door.

In a way, I like the way CompTIA is going as well as ISC^2 with their CISSP; I like continuing education credits (even though CompTIA certs use to be for life, but I understand that technology changes) instead of re-certification.

Okay, this is getting too long, just give me your opinion on certs, good, bad, or in indifferent. Also, I'm curious if anyone has been turned down for a job that they were completely qualified for, but they didn't hold a particular cert, so they didn't get it.

MrRyte

DigitalZeroOne wrote: »

I know this may sound off, especially coming from someone who really enjoys working in IT; but I don't really care for certifications. I remember back in 1998 I had to study to take my Microsoft exams for the MCSE, I was just getting into IT then, and it was really exciting. Having an MCSE was almost a free pass into any IT related job, as time has gone on and new technologies have emerged, coupled with new certs, my opinion on certifications has waned.

I don't think certifications really show how much someone knows, with the exception of a few certs, mainly Cisco and Redhat (Because of the hands-on approach). Most exams are basically multiple choice answer sheets that do not test real world knowledge, and just like reality shows, everyone has a cert now, and just about every vendor creates some new variation of their cert.

Of course I can definitely see the advantages in studying for certs; you are forced to learn material that you may not have otherwise learned, you get to show that you can set a goal and achieve it, it can show that you are serious about your career and education. I may be channeling my frustration at the wrong target, it's not really the certification vendor, it's more so the employer. They want x amount of years of experience, a degree, and a cert. Now don't get me wrong, I actually have the major certs and the degree and I have no problems getting a job (DoD contractor), but when I think about new people coming in, there is just so much that they need to get in the door.

In a way, I like the way CompTIA is going as well as ISC^2 with their CISSP; I like continuing education credits (even though CompTIA certs use to be for life, but I understand that technology changes) instead of re-certification.

Okay, this is getting too long, just give me your opinion on certs, good, bad, or in indifferent. Also, I'm curious if anyone has been turned down for a job that they were completely qualified for, but they didn't hold a particular cert, so they didn't get it.

Both. Here why I say that-
A cert (like a degree) is an official document from the vendor declaring competency in a certain skill/field. Its purpose is to get your foot in the door and show potential employees that you have SOME degree of knowledge for the opening that they are trying to fill. But the real test begins when you're actually on the job. If you can't do your job, then you, the cert and the vendor lose their value.

Asif Dasl

I actually think continuing education credits for lower level certifications is a waste of time and money. If anything creates more hurdles for those entering the IT field and does little if anything for actual working knowledge. As far as a CISSP goes, that's fair game.


As the usual argument goes - certs aren't everything, neither is experience, neither is a degree only. But put them altogether and you are on to a winner in most respects. Experience counts for more the longer you have been in the field as far as I am concerned. It's easier for someone with a lot of experience to lean back on older certifications which they may have done. But the real value of certifications is keeping up with the latest in your chosen area of specialty.


In most circumstances I would still choose someone with the latest mid-level certifications over someone with experience and no certifications or very old certifications.

networker050184

They hold value for both you and the vendor. People will always chose a product they are comfortable with and companies want people familiar with the products they use. The vendor is probably coming out a little ahead of the the person getting certified, but hey its still a win/win IMO.

DigitalZeroOne

Asif Dasl wrote: »

In most circumstances I would still choose someone with the latest mid-level certifications over someone with experience and no certifications or very old certifications.

So you would rather have someone with an MCITP and maybe a CCNA than someone with 10 years of experience in AD management and networking, simply because they didn't take a Microsoft and Cisco exam?

Asif Dasl

DigitalZeroOne wrote: »

So you would rather have someone with an MCITP and maybe a CCNA than someone with 10 years of experience in AD management and networking, simply because they didn't take a Microsoft and Cisco exam?

Just because you have 10 years of experience doesn't mean an awful lot if you just sat on the same system setup for like 5 years. If you have taken exams it shows you want to learn and are willing to learn new ways of doing things. Experience is great but book learning has significant advantages, especially if that person goes on to take exams and test themselves even further.

NetworkingStudent

DigitalZeroOne wrote: »

I know this may sound off, especially coming from someone who really enjoys working in IT; but I don't really care for certifications. I remember back in 1998 I had to study to take my Microsoft exams for the MCSE, I was just getting into IT then, and it was really exciting. Having an MCSE was almost a free pass into any IT related job, as time has gone on and new technologies have emerged, coupled with new certs, my opinion on certifications has waned.

I don't think certifications really show how much someone knows, with the exception of a few certs, mainly Cisco and Redhat (Because of the hands-on approach). Most exams are basically multiple choice answer sheets that do not test real world knowledge, and just like reality shows, everyone has a cert now, and just about every vendor creates some new variation of their cert.

Of course I can definitely see the advantages in studying for certs; you are forced to learn material that you may not have otherwise learned, you get to show that you can set a goal and achieve it, it can show that you are serious about your career and education. I may be channeling my frustration at the wrong target, it's not really the certification vendor, it's more so the employer. They want x amount of years of experience, a degree, and a cert. Now don't get me wrong, I actually have the major certs and the degree and I have no problems getting a job (DoD contractor), but when I think about new people coming in, there is just so much that they need to get in the door.

In a way, I like the way CompTIA is going as well as ISC^2 with their CISSP; I like continuing education credits (even though CompTIA certs use to be for life, but I understand that technology changes) instead of re-certification.

Okay, this is getting too long, just give me your opinion on certs, good, bad, or in indifferent. Also, I'm curious if anyone has been turned down for a job that they were completely qualified for, but they didn't hold a particular cert, so they didn't get it.

Like a degree it depends on what you do with said certification. The past few months I have seen more jobs that require certifications. I even had an employer tell me that one of the reasons he brought me in for an interview was because I had my A+ certification.

I will say that the horrible economy has made it especially difficult to get a job. I’m a recent graduated with a A.A.S degree in IT. I have had several interviews and not having the experience really hurts a recent graduate. In my opinion, Internships need to be mandatory for graduation. Most of the help desk jobs I have seen are requiring 1-2 years of experience. My advice is to stay active in your job search. Here is what I’m doing:
• Looking for internships
• Took a 2nd job titled “PC Mover” we connect and disconnect PC’s
• I Volunteer on Mondays
Studying for the Windows 70-680 exam

DigitalZeroOne

Asif Dasl wrote: »

Just because you have 10 years of experience doesn't mean an awful lot if you just sat on the same system setup for like 5 years. If you have taken exams it shows you want to learn and are willing to learn new ways of doing things. Experience is great but book learning has significant advantages, especially if that person goes on to take exams and test themselves even further.

I didn't just say 10 years of experience, I made sure that I put AD management and networking in there with it; but I can see that we probably won't agree on this matter. I will say this, I have been on multiple contracts in different states and from my experience, passing a certification exam does not mean a lot to me (depending on the exam). I play the certification game, I know the rules, but it's a little frustrating when people put so much value in certifications (not saying you do, I mean in general).

CompTIA's site has 11 certifications, Microsoft has 18 certs when you count the different variations, VMware recently added 2 additional certs as a go-between for its VCDX. So now new people need a degree + experience + certifications just to get a job.

contentpros

As a guy who does a fair amount of hiring I tend to lean towards experience over certifications. That being said there are a number of other things that I look for when reviewing a resume. As one person pointed out previously if somebody has 10 years of doing or working with platform x, I look to see have the done any migrations what other duties are included in the case of exchange if I look at a resume and I see 10 years of supporting exchange 2000 and nothing more current then that it would raise a red flag for me. Just like if a candidate has 15 or 20 credentials and 3 years of work experience. If you are stuck in a shop that doesn't have budget for upgrades or where the management doesn't see the benefits of investing in infrastructure I do not hold that against a candidate, but this is where having the certs in the more current versions can work in your favor. At least if I see that even though a candidate is stuck in a rut they are still trying to keep current that shows me that you want to learn and may tip the scales in favor of bringing you in for an interview.

HTH,

~CP

Asif Dasl

DigitalZeroOne wrote: »

CompTIA's site has 11 certifications, Microsoft has 18 certs when you count the different variations, VMware recently added 2 additional certs as a go-between for its VCDX. So now new people need a degree + experience + certifications just to get a job.

But I don't have experience in all of those areas for me to take all of those CompTIA or Microsoft exams. I don't have a degree but have 10 years of experience, so I kind of get away with needing a degree. I have a job but it is doing the same old same old stuff. I am in the process of finishing my MCSE and doing the latest Windows 7 and MCITP upgrade exams. But yeah you need all 3 to get a job in the right area. I can't get a VMware job cause I don't have a VCP. If I want to get a VMware job then I probably will need to pay for it out of my own pocket and hope to pick up a job using it. The certification game, we are all playing it because employers are the ones making the rules.

instant000

You asked at least two questions:

1. Do certifications hold value for you, or the vendor?
2. Have you been ever been denied a job solely because of a certification?

==========================

1. Do certifications hold value for you, or the vendor?
- Both.
Obviously for vendors, they've found that having individuals certified on their product can help them sell their products ... imagine that.
For myself, I've had past employers who specifically mention that they brought me in because I had certifications.

2. Have you been ever been denied a job solely because of a certification?
Not specifically. However, I have been told that I need to get XYZ certification in order to get a job (which I did). And, I have seen jobs that I meet all the qualifications for, but don't have the certification, so I can't apply for them.

To me, it is kind of wack (the certification game). But, it is what it is. What can we really do to get around it? Business buy products, and want people to administer those products. A good objective measurement of that is the vendor's attestation that the person has a certain competence level about the product. And, a company is not going to pay to send their own employees to training, as long as there are people out there willing to pay for it themselves, and give the company a certified pool to pick from. I hope this makes sense.

Akaricloud

Your knowledge of a subject definitely shows up on certification exams but having the certification doesn't necessarily show that you have knowledge.

Yes there's a disconnect between the two but I'm willing to bet that on average someone with a certification in a specific area is more knowledgeable in it than other applicants without one. They definitely hold their place in society and in my opinion are like smaller, more specific degrees.

I look at a lot of people trying to get into the IT industry and can't help think to myself that they're not really trying but rather expecting it to just happen. You can work on a degree and certifications while getting very entry level IT experience quite easily and if you really enjoy the field then you'll enjoy the journey as well.

powerfool

Well, you discussed several ideas, so I will weigh in on a few:

1) Continuing Education: I have to agree with the first response that this is a waste of time for entry-level certs (CompTIA) because your continuing education should be to get a higher level certification (similar to Cisco's recertification model). For high-end certifications, like CISSP, they are perfect. I actually would like to see Cisco move towards a model like this for the CCIE or the new CCA (Cisco Certified Architect).

2) There are two types of credentials that we have available in this industry, degrees and certifications. Degrees are for long-term value, whereas certifications are for the short-term and prove competency for something that is up to date (e.g. MCSE 2000, MCSE 2003, MCITP Enterprise Admin for 200. Computer Science degrees are notorious for being seven years behind the industry. So, you get the degree for theory and becoming a well-rounded educated person; you get certifications for this product.

3) As far as hiring, I have frequently seen certs used as quick filters. I have never been told that I didn't get a job because I lacked a certification... however, I have to imagine that I didn't even get a call because of it on several occasions. When I only had MCSE 2000 and CCNA, I was told bluntly by a hiring manager that he was only interviewing me because of someone I knew and that otherwise he would not have even called me back (the most interesting thing is that I didn't even apply for the job...). I didn't get the job, which I didn't want anyways, but I have to imagine my certifications were not where they wanted them as the other folks on the team have professional level Cisco certs. That was previous to my current job and my employer is much more prestigious.

4) If I were a hiring manager, it would be based on the job, but my pick would be someone that had ongoing professional development (degrees, certifications, soft-skills training, etc). While it isn't the professional development that made the person, a qualified and motivated individual will seek professional development and do so in the most well-rounded way.

And I have to say that you should expect certifications like the MCSE to fade with time... Novell folks aren't marketable these days, but the associated certifications used to be hot. One of a few things happens to a certification over time: the product becomes irrelevant making the cert irrelevant, the market becomes saturated with individuals certified for a product, or people lose their certification on an ongoing basis because it must be maintained and it is no longer relevant to the individual.

powerfool

Akaricloud wrote: »

Yes there's a disconnect between the two but I'm willing to bet that on average someone with a certification in a specific area is more knowledgeable in it than other applicants without one. They definitely hold their place in society and in my opinion are like smaller, more specific degrees.

Those are similar to my thoughts. Specifically, if someone is knowledgeable about a product, why not just get the certification?

N2IT

In my humble opinion there is only one thing that matters. Can you deliver!

mikedisd2

I absolutely got where I am through having certs. I wouldn't have my level of MS knowledge if I hadn't studied for them as well. It goes hand in hand with experience.

I see it as just a game. Hirers want them, so I get them for the job which gets me the experience. This builds resume strength and I then get higher certs to get a higher job. It's like playing Zelda.

djfunz

powerfool wrote: »

Those are similar to my thoughts. Specifically, if someone is knowledgeable about a product, why not just get the certification?

Easy! $$$. Or in my case, €€€.

blargoe

Now that I am well established in the IT field, I still find certification valuable. I use certification to validate my skills to potential employers on technologies that I am already using and with which I have a existing level of proficiency.

Secondarily, the process of preparing for a cert, for me, helps me to bridge the gaps between the areas that I am familiar and the things on the exam blueprint with which I have less experience. Often I am able to take the new things I learn and apply them on the job... either at the current job or the next one.

MickQ

N2IT wrote: »

In my humble opinion there is only one thing that matters. Can you deliver!

Exactly.

I've been doing IT for about 15 years. Actually, longer now that I think of it. That doesn't include the time spent growing up with the stuff in its various forms.
I've had my degree for a while and that was good enough for most people. I've recently (last couple of months) sat for and got my MCITPs and CCNA. Why? Just in case someone asks for them. Noone has yet, but that doesn't mean that they won't.
I'm in the fortunate position where my customers come to me and ask me to take care of problem X or maintain system Y.
If I had to go after them, I'd probably need some bits of paper to show them that I know a certain amount.
If I was applying for a job, I'd need them for the larger enterprises as the HR depts. in them are actively screening based on certs. If it was a smaller shop, I'd get away with walking in and showing my skills. This should be the case in any job application, but taking up the time of the techies who know their stuff for applicant screening can get expensive. Hence the active cert screening.
So, in summary:
Certs get you through that awful wall of HR and hopefully to the point where you're discussing work related problems and solutions, with the techies, in an interview. This is where your experience will be seen.
Experience is what really counts. You can have all the certs and degrees you like, but I've seen so many people with them who still don't know what fdisk did to their drive when they used it on some malware.