Why You Need a Degree

eMeS

Table A-4. Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment

It's impossible to assume causation from these numbers (it could just be that people with degrees work harder or interview better, and are therefore more employable), but there is a relationship between level of education and unemployment rate.

I know I've seen something before that breaks down advanced degrees, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'd love to see something that compares degrees from different types of schools.

And this:

Table 3. The 10 industries with the largest wage and salary employment growth, 2008-18 (1)

#1 - Management, scientific, and technical consulting services

I'm raising rates!

MS

Everyone

Once again I'm a statistical anomaly. :P No degree, and I've had no lapse of employment for 12 years straight, even though I've had 4 different employers in the last 12 years. I make just as much or more as my coworkers that do have degrees too.

N2IT

eMeS wrote: »

Table A-4. Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment

It's impossible to assume causation from these numbers (it could just be that people with degrees work harder or interview better, and are therefore more employable), but there is a relationship between level of education and unemployment rate.

I know I've seen something before that breaks down advanced degrees, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'd love to see something that compares degrees from different types of schools.

And this:

Table 3. The 10 industries with the largest wage and salary employment growth, 2008-18 (1)

#1 - Management, scientific, and technical consulting services

I'm raising rates!

MS

Great post!

I heard the other day in Detriot the unemployment rate was 22%, but for people with a bachelors it was 5%.

higherho

Everyone wrote: »

Once again I'm a statistical anomaly. :P No degree, and I've had no lapse of employment for 12 years straight, even though I've had 4 different employers in the last 12 years. I make just as much or more as my coworkers that do have degrees too.

This is true in many cases but it also depends were you work. Were I work at for the Network Security Officer position they would require some formal education and prefer 4 year degree holders over most. You can get it with exp alone but its really tough when you are up against someone with a formal education and exp and certs.

Plus IT is getting really tight when it comes to education, certs, and exp. My brother in law is a senior programmer at Cornell uni. he's been doing programming for over 20 years and he only had a 4 year english degree. They basically told / forced him that he needed a masters degree in a computer science major (he just recently got it). My point is 10 years ago it was much easier to get by with just exp but 5 to 10 years from now it will not be.

videguy

I just completed my degree a couple of weeks ago. I have noticed since changing my profile in various job sites I am getting more views and the offers to sell insurance are coming from real companies I have heard of.
I was a bit late in finishing took my first college class between Junior and Senior year in high school. It will be interesting to see if it leads to a better job, time will tell. It is a good feeling to be able to say yes I have a bachelors when asked though.

Pash

While I am not denying that a degree is a very good choice for personal and professional development I thought I would throw this link into the mix:-

List of college dropout billionaires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't stop being creative and working hard to realise your ideas/passions because I certainly won't.

mikedisd2

Pash wrote: »

List of college dropout billionaires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't stop being creative and working hard to realise your ideas/passions because I certainly won't.

Good to see they kept the playing field open and included these two:

Pablo Escobar - Colombian drug lord
Amado Carrillo Fuentes - Mexican drug lord

Follow your dreams, you can make it happen.

eansdad

Pash wrote: »

While I am not denying that a degree is a very good choice for personal and professional development I thought I would throw this link into the mix:-

List of college dropout billionaires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't stop being creative and working hard to realise your ideas/passions because I certainly won't.

Some drop outs do go one to make fortunes BUT take if you look at the drop outs of the 90's-on the schools they dropped from are some big name schools. I dare someone to find someone who dropped out of community college in the last 20 years that went on to be a millionaire (with out winning the lottery).

Facts are the tech field is getting more competitive. 15-20 years ago an A+ ment good pay with out a degree, 5-10 years ago it ment getting your foot in the door. Now an A+ might get you in but usually needs to be backed up with an asscoiates and/or Net+. A lot of jobs are asking for certs, degrees and exp (years worth) simple because they can. Sure some parts of the country finding a good/higher level tech job might be easier but that won't always be. As more people get better education and certs it will only server to tighten the requirements that companies can ask for in new hires. 20 years ago asking jr level admin to already be an MCSE AND Cisco certed on top of a 4 year degree would never of getton filled. Now they have dozens of applicants to chose from.

it_consultant

Tech is most certainly getting more competitive for entry level jobs. I am 7 years in to my career and I can honestly tell you that I fairly compete with degree'd candidates and often beat them out. At some point in your professional development a BS in IT is irrelevant because years of experience have taught you what you need to know. Of course, when I get to the point (and it is fast approaching) where I need an MBA to advance my career, I am at a severe disadvantage.

Not to crap on anyone, but I feel like these posts are started by folks to justify the time and expense they put into college. You don't have to justify to us your life decisions. Just know that IT is not your average field, you can have a masters degree and be unable to find work, you can have no degree and earn north of $100,000 per annum.

The most important component to employment in tech is experience and know how, the two go hand in hand. Those are also the two most difficult things to come by. I have come by all of my valuable experience consulting. Frankly, a lot of IT guys don't have the bones to stay in the consulting game for an extended period of time. If you can stick it out for more than 2 years you will have racked up a wealth of experience that internal IT guys can't hope to match in the same amount of time.

More discussions on this board should focus on how to get good and relevant experience rather than the merits of earning certifications or college degrees.

networker050184

it_consultant wrote: »

Not to crap on anyone, but I feel like these posts are started by folks to justify the time and expense they put into college. You don't have to justify to us your life decisions. Just know that IT is not your average field, you can have a masters degree and be unable to find work, you can have no degree and earn north of $100,000 per annum.

The most important component to employment in tech is experience and know how, the two go hand in hand. Those are also the two most difficult things to come by.

I couldn't agree more!

it_consultant wrote: »

More discussions on this board should focus on how to get good and relevant experience rather than the merits of earning certifications or college degrees.

Well, this is a certification forum so most of the focus is and should be on certs. I see what your point is though.

Everyone

it_consultant wrote: »

Tech is most certainly getting more competitive for entry level jobs. I am 7 years in to my career and I can honestly tell you that I fairly compete with degree'd candidates and often beat them out. At some point in your professional development a BS in IT is irrelevant because years of experience have taught you what you need to know. Of course, when I get to the point (and it is fast approaching) where I need an MBA to advance my career, I am at a severe disadvantage.

Not to crap on anyone, but I feel like these posts are started by folks to justify the time and expense they put into college. You don't have to justify to us your life decisions. Just know that IT is not your average field, you can have a masters degree and be unable to find work, you can have no degree and earn north of $100,000 per annum.

The most important component to employment in tech is experience and know how, the two go hand in hand. Those are also the two most difficult things to come by. I have come by all of my valuable experience consulting. Frankly, a lot of IT guys don't have the bones to stay in the consulting game for an extended period of time. If you can stick it out for more than 2 years you will have racked up a wealth of experience that internal IT guys can't hope to match in the same amount of time.

More discussions on this board should focus on how to get good and relevant experience rather than the merits of earning certifications or college degrees.

Well said. If you look at the data on sites like salary.com and compare someone with 10+ years experience in a senior level position and no degree to someone with that much experience AND a degree, sometimes the salary range is LESS for someone with a degree! Even when the degree comes out with a higher salary range, it's never more than $1-2k higher per year, which is barely anything. I've been trying to convince my boss of this, but he's stuck up on that these job descriptions say "Typically requires a bachelors degree in a related field". Even though he agrees that experience can more than make up for a lack of degree, as more people in my department do not have a degree than those that do.

Bl8ckr0uter

Interesting article. I would say that I have only just started to see the need for a degree in my personal career. I have had a few job changes and now I want to break the 60 - 70k window. I think going any higher than that will be extremely difficult without either specialized experience and knowledge and/or a degree. I still consider myself somewhat entry level and I don't think not having my degree has held me back . I also don't think that ny degree will further my applicable knowledge too much.

earweed

Interesting article.
It brings to mind one of the senior network guys where I work. He has a CS degree but is adamant about the fact that his degree is worthless because there are people who are doing the same job as his and have no degree and make approximately the same money.
I personally see that trend changing in the coming years as IT is getting more competetive and any edge (a degree is just an edge up) will help when competing for a job.

veritas_libertas

N2IT wrote: »

Great post!

I heard the other day in Detriot the unemployment rate was 22%, but for people with a bachelors it was 5%.

Yes, and only 50% of Detroiters can read!

http://www.businessinsider.com/nearly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read-2011-5

I'm convinced that a BS degree is going to be required more and more as time goes on. That being said, I'm sure we are going to continue to see, "A BS or equivalent years of experience" for quite a while on job postings.

it_consultant

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

Interesting article. I would say that I have only just started to see the need for a degree in my personal career. I have had a few job changes and now I want to break the 60 - 70k window. I think going any higher than that will be extremely difficult without either specialized experience and knowledge and/or a degree. I still consider myself somewhat entry level and I don't think not having my degree has held me back . I also don't think that ny degree will further my applicable knowledge too much.

I just recently broke 70K (having been slightly below it for a while) barrier, as did my wife who is an insurance underwriter. I promise that I have to be VERY good to justify my salary, better than I would have had to have been 7-8 years ago.

At that point, we are talking not just about technical skills but about professional skills like project management and high level business direction. Instead of just executing the mission of IT in your company, you have to start forming opinions on how to make IT profitable for your company.

Everyone

I broke the $70k barrier a couple years ago, and am close to breaking $80k now. However with the level of work I do and responsibilities I have, I should be making over $100k. Really trying to push to get closer to that, but it's hard since we're in the middle of being acquired by another company (pending FTC approval right now).

eMeS

it_consultant wrote: »

I feel like these posts are started by folks to justify the time and expense they put into college. You don't have to justify to us your life decisions. Just know that IT is not your average field, you can have a masters degree and be unable to find work, you can have no degree and earn north of $100,000 per annum.

Trust me, I have no need to justify anything to you or anyone else, so you can go **** yourself.

What justifies the decisions I've made are the results I've achieved. I started in IT at 18, and worked through college, so it's not like I chose to go to school and to delay pursuing a career and I need to justify that choice.

Statements like I'm seeing here is exactly why many of you need to earn college degrees. Statistics never imply a 100% hard and fast rule that absolutely applies to everyone. I haven't said that and the link I posted doesn't say that. What it says is that there is a tendency for people with higher levels of education to experience less unemployment than those without higher levels of education. There are, and always will be exceptions to any general trend. The link doesn't even say that the education is the cause of less unemployment, simply that there is some correlation. The effect could be because people with higher levels of education smell better than others (or any other myriad number of causes).

You keep focusing on exceptions to general trends, and I'll keep focusing on being happy, wealthy and wise.

MS

MrAgent

Whats funny is, Ive always had a job since I was 18. Im 34 now. I didnt get my degree until last year. Ive always had recruiters from govt agencies calling me. Now I get govt and commercial recruiters calling me.

Ive definitely seen a difference since completing my degree. Wish I would have done it sooner.

Akaricloud

eMeS wrote: »

Statistics never imply a 100% hard and fast rule that absolutely applies to everyone. I haven't said that and the link I posted doesn't say that. What it says is that there is a tendency for people with higher levels of education to experience less unemployment than those without higher levels of education. There are, and always will be exceptions to any general trend. The link doesn't even say that the education is the cause of less unemployment, simply that there is some correlation. The effect could be because people with higher levels of education smell better than others (or any other myriad number of causes).

I agree. The people who aren't willing to try to improve themselves with college or are unable to mentally handle it are going to have a higher unemployment rate. I'm not saying that's true of all the people who don't hold a degree but it's true of some of them which largely impacts the statistics.

The same can be said on the other side of it; Someone with the motivation and dedication to finish a 4-year education is more likely to be motivated to pursue a job. The statistics don't take into account any of this and are really not relevant for the type of comparison that they are trying to present.

People that are unemployed are unemployed because they're not trying or aren't willing to settle for a job that matches their experience and education. Even with the current state of the economy I've never had any problem getting a decent paying position with 0 experience and education in a given field. Everyone I know that really tries to get a job has one.

I'm about to finish my degree but if I had to do it all over again I'd likely choose a different route.

SteveLord

it_consultant wrote: »

Not to crap on anyone, but I feel like these posts are started by folks to justify the time and expense they put into college. You don't have to justify to us your life decisions. Just know that IT is not your average field, you can have a masters degree and be unable to find work, you can have no degree and earn north of $100,000 per annum.

Agreed with all, especially the bolded part. However, I do not feel it applies to the the OP in this case.

And then I really don't give a crap the stuff the OP posted (and that isn't meant as a jab against him). Sites also regularly say a person with just an A+ can expect a salary of $50k.

I see just as many if not more peers from highschool that felt their degree was wasted (talking general, not just IT) as those who are in a successful career.

it_consultant

There is just too much that goes into making a big salary to say that you need a degree to make a lot of money. Yes it helps, but there are many other factors including where you are physically located that will affect your bottom line.

I'm not actually trying to insult anyone but I do have a certain bluntness (which is one the reasons why I make a lot of money) and I don't pussy-foot around topics. I know enough people who get business degrees who go one to bemoan the fact that they have to start in entry level positions, they have a degree, obviously they should be starting out at $60K with benefits.

The real crux of what I was trying to say was that experience is the real key to moving upward and onward. Getting through the door, the degree and certs and all that good stuff is very helpful. A couple of years in and its all about the experience.

I'm sorry eMeS if your feelings were hurt but I certainly got the justification vibe and you are far from the first person who has pointed out the correlation between education levels and employment rates. Those statistics, as have been pointed out, are very 2 dimensional. Like I said originally and other posters have said, there are people with Master's degrees who can't find work and people with no degrees pulling in huge salaries.

DigitalZeroOne

Even though I don't think a degree is required to perform my job (DoD contractor), it has been a requirement of many jobs. Actually, my first DoD contract required a B.S. degree and there was no way around it; I'm happy that I finished my degree, and it is paying off.

Of course in this field you need a degree, certs, experience, and a very clean credit and criminal history, so they all add up. I'm thinking of going for a graduate degree in IA to increase my pay and marketability. I guess it's all about stacking the deck in your favor.

Bl8ckr0uter

Kinda had a feeling this thread was going to go here. Too bad. Bottom line is be very good at what you do and be able to talk the business side of things and you will get paid. Degrees, certs and even experience don't necessarily mean that you have marketable skills. Being skilled far outweighs them all and for those of that would imply that getting a degree means you are skilled, you are missing the point. I don't think degrees are designed in a way (minus professional degrees and some hard sciences) to get you skilled. My soon to be acquired A.A.S in networking has little to do with my networking knowledge. The actual ccna exam didn't either. Studying helped and experience did but only because I made it helpful. If I worked as a password reset king then my experience would not have helped me.

You guys need to relax.

SteveLord

DigitalZeroOne wrote: »

Even though I don't think a degree is required to perform my job (DoD contractor), it has been a requirement of many jobs. Actually, my first DoD contract required a B.S. degree and there was no way around it; I'm happy that I finished my degree, and it is paying off.

Of course in this field you need a degree, certs, experience, and a very clean credit and criminal history, so they all add up. I'm thinking of going for a graduate degree in IA to increase my pay and marketability. I guess it's all about stacking the deck in your favor.

Government is definitely 1 place that almost always requires them if you want to excel. However, some will allow X amount of years to substitute.

Nobody can always accurately predict how the shape of one's credentials can affect their future.

eMeS

it_consultant wrote: »

I'm sorry eMeS if your feelings were hurt but I certainly got the justification vibe and you are far from the first person who has pointed out the correlation between education levels and employment rates. Those statistics, as have been pointed out, are very 2 dimensional. Like I said originally and other posters have said, there are people with Master's degrees who can't find work and people with no degrees pulling in huge salaries.

Don't confuse that I think you're stupid with my feelings being hurt.

Mostly, I find it insulting that you're offering advice and insight into a topic that you clearly don't fully understand. You are generalizing from the point of an exception. I've made it clear that there are always exceptions to statistics such as this.

You're also telling me that I'm using statistics to justify something that I did, and at the same time justifying the approach you've taken through anecdotal evidence of your success. I simply find this information interesting, and I think it's clear; I'd much rather be in the group that has the higher education vs. any of the groups that don't.

It's also not as if I scoured the Internet for some obscure source to justify what I've done. This is from the US Department of Labor. It's their job to track things like this.

But let me ask you this...for April 2011 the table indicates that the unemployment rate was 4.1% for those with a bachelor's degree or higher. This is compared to 7.2% unemployment for those with some college, and 9.6% for those with only a high school education. Are you seriously going to tell me that you don't see a difference between those numbers, and recognize that the difference has something to do with group membership?

The first table says nothing about the salaries of employed people in each group, so I'm not sure why that's been inserted into this conversation? I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that higher education generally results in higher salary, but that's not the subject of the first table.

Again, exceptions are permitted, in fact, I wouldn't want to live in a country that didn't allow exceptions. However, the general relationship is clear. People generally exist in different groups, and something about their membership in those groups affects their rate of unemployment. It appears that level of education is a contributing factor.

MS

networker050184

Completely unprofessional. We can have discussion without name calling.


AHRIAKIN Butting in:
Agreed. I was watching this earlier and hoping it wouldn't degrade and we'd have some intelligent points and rebuttals from each side (and there were a few). Guys, you're adults, do small jabs on the internet really matter that much - to the point were they escalate like this? I stay away from locking posts for the small stuff if possible as you aren't kids and I sure as hell ain't daddy, But Networker is right.