"Hands on" is selling me short...

ccnxjr

So i got decent paper quals.
CCNA, A+, Net+, Bachelors cum laude
4+ help desk/ desk side support.
However still stuck in a help desk role, where I don't even get to work on switches.
Getting more certs is not the answer.

Been trying to find a NOC position but most of the ads are for experienced techs.
I know that they get experience from somewhere, but where!!!
Recruiters always get dismissive once I mention that I don't have any hands on experience.
It seems that even working for a temp agencies they're more ready to ship me off to another help desk role, it's a hard sell for them to get me into a networking position. I do get call backs from people that did state they needed experience in their ads, however I don't think they read my resume, since i do not list any router/switch experience in my last positions and they get dissapointed when I tell them I have no hands on, aside from labs at DeVry (3 yrs ago!).

Typical chicken and egg story, however I do have certs and more than competent (my network admins have faith in me, but there was/is a lot of bureaucracy at my last position)

Any ideas on which companies I can cold call to get some experience, even if its just boxing and shipping routers & switches, or just labeling the hardware?
Or do any of you current admins/engineers know of any contractors that may take me on to do the grunt work on a pt basis while I do help desk?

CompuTron99

Are you applying to the positions that state "experienced"? If not, I would apply anyway.

shodown

I'm just going to have to come out and say it. Its saddening to see these threads of people who are doing the right thing(instead of the best thing for them), and getting pumped from behind as a result


buy you some switches. Cover them inside out. Do every lab you can find. Read about what you did, do the labs again.

Apply for jobs if they ask you about switching tell them what you know. Don't really lie about real world experience.


Find the hustlers mentality in you and you will find something rather quickly.

Also a big thing is to be in a market where there are jobs at. I see a lot of guy trying to get jobs in backwood country where there maybe 1/2 cisco jobs available, where in other markets they are begging for a cisco guy



A few years a back I was in the same boat.



A few years back I was in the same boat. I had to really so some digging and thought about taking care of me while not hurting others at the same time. I went from NOC worker to Sr Engineer in 3 years. I had 4 jobs changes and moved from VA to MPLS, to DC, in the same time, but it has been worth it.



You have guys who **** exams say anything to get the job and they will beat you out time and time over. You have to start playing by the rules of the real world. Not the fairy tale world we make up in IT.


Last thing I will say is I don' tknow your situation 100 percent there could be other factors coming into play, but what I noticed is that you said "Recruiters always get dismissive once I mention that I don't have any hands on experience." Do something about that part.

VAHokie56

shodown wrote: »

Find the hustlers mentality in you and you will find something rather quickly.

This is spot on.

tpatt100

Don't forget the economy sucks so people with experience might be sitting in lower end jobs or in middle level jobs but afraid to look for something else.

If you can afford it sell yourself for an internship somewhere. Maybe a short term weekend upgrade project. Or nights? Even free if you explain how you want to learn and get more real world hands on.

higherho

Yea with your credentials (especially the 4 year degree too) you should not subject yourself to a help desk job that has no room for growth (especially that long).

Lab hours count for a lot. I've been putting on my resume that I have over 75 lab hours (over one year network academy and my work lab witch has large business to enterprise level equipment) and that counts for a lot.

Also if you know what you are talking about regarding the position apply for it and let them know. I honestly think this "Experience" positions go way to far in the requirements because most of them are so easy. If you know what you are doing and a good solid education and lab time can give you all the experience you need.


My general rule is too never settle for anything less than what you are worth (unless it's a dire emergency) and sell your self the best way you can. Make yourself known and let those people know how good you are.

Forsaken_GA

shodown wrote: »

I'm just going to have to come out and say it. Its saddening to see these threads of people who are doing the right thing(instead of the best thing for them), and getting pumped from behind as a result

I don't personally think that the entire get an education, get certs is the 'right thing'. There's no such thing as a blueprint. I've said it before, I'll say it again many times - the certs aren't the end goal. The knowledge is. The certs should be, if anything, about self-validation that you've honed your skills to the point where they're useful. With all the rampant dumping, employers can't take certs at their word anymore.

And you don't need certs. They help, sure, but they're not required. One of our guys has been with the company for 5 years as a network engineer. Had 5 additional years prior to that. Passed his CCNA two weeks ago (I think he got tired of looking at all the CC** paper posted at my desk ).

shodown is dead right when he says its all about your hustle. I suspect your problem is a presentation issue, and a motivation issue. Relying on agencies or head hunters should be a last ditch effort. I view it in as much the same vein as expecting the government to take care of your problems with a program - it's lazy, unintelligent, and inefficient. Rely on someone else to do the heavy lifting for you, good luck getting out of the ghetto.

If you don't have any hands on, go get yourself some. I have my home lab charted and diagrammed out, and a short bulleted list of all the technologies I feature in it. I'm a little more hardcore than your average nerd... my home environment is entirely integrated into a single sign on environment via LDAP, 802.1x authentication, security zones, etc. I basically emulate a full enterprise network as close as possible. If a technology looks fun or cool, I take the time to go learn about it and learn it's implementation. Even for the stuff I ultimately decide I don't like and I decomm, I've still learned about it, and that gives me more insight into it's use than somebody who would be coming at it fresh. This approach shows the interviewer two very important things #1 - I have a clue as to what I'm doing. #2 - I am a very highly motivated person who is more than willing to go learn new things without any prompting.

And I talk about all of that before I even get to my actual work experience. After my initial presentation, they're usually suitably impressed that when I talk about my work experiences, it's a bit anti-climatic.

You're wasting your time with agencies. They don't give a damn what kind of person you are. If you don't fit their profile, they're not going to be willing to take a risk on you. If they send their companies bad prospects, it affects their relations and likelyhood of gaining business in the future, not to mention their bottom line. The agency gets a big payout when one of their prospects gets hired full time, so they're going to do everything they can to maximize the chances of that happening.

If you have problems with how to present yourself, get yourself some education. Do yourself a HUGE favor and pickup a copy of Seth Godin's Tribes (and then go read everything else Seth has ever written, including his blog). The man is a mastermind at marketing. And while you may not be interested in marketing as a career, it will teach you how to market yourself, and that's an immensely useful skill.

With all that being said, every meaningful job I've ever had, including my current one, have all come via contacts through other people, and the interview process was pretty much just a formality. The person who keyed me in on the opportunity already knew what I was capable of, and had already sold the hiring manager on me. Networking is the most potent job search tool you can possibly have, cultivate your relationships.

If you've got any user groups in your area (and I'd be very surprised if NYC didn't have more than a few), go attend them. Make connections. Or do something as simple as volunteer your time. I've gotten to know folks who have been positive influences in my life just from spending time working at the soup kitchen. Churches also tend to be an excellent place to extend your flesh and blood network.

Sitting back and just applying for jobs is throwing a hail mary. You are not John Elway, so go out and make some preparations to tip the scales in your favor.

froggy3132000

You are in NYC. I know there are plenty of jobs that have jr level network engineer jobs. You have to sell yourself in the interview. If you are not getting the interview then its your resume. just like it was stated before go to ebay buy a small lab or use gns3 (if you dont have the money)

There are a bunch of sites that have free lab material gns3 vault is one of the top of my head. Read sites like techrepublic, networkworld and others to find out what is going in our field and what you need to know to stay ahead.

Like the dude said you have to HUSTLE, it is not going to fall in your lap. If you work hard jobs will be calling you and not the other way around.

Word of advice that I tell anyone, don't become a one trick pony. there are plenty technologies and "vendors" that can support/implement them.

Good luck.

ehnde

ccnxjr wrote: »

Been trying to find a NOC position but most of the ads are for experienced techs.
.....
Recruiters always get dismissive once I mention that I don't have any hands on experience.
It seems that even working for a temp agencies they're more ready to ship me off to another help desk role, it's a hard sell for them to get me into a networking position. I do get call backs from people that did state they needed experience in their ads, however I don't think they read my resume, since i do not list any router/switch experience in my last positions and they get dissapointed when I tell them I have no hands on, aside from labs at DeVry (3 yrs ago!).

Typical chicken and egg story, however I do have certs and more than competent (my network admins have faith in me, but there was/is a lot of bureaucracy at my last position)

Any ideas on which companies I can cold call to get some experience, even if its just boxing and shipping routers & switches, or just labeling the hardware?
Or do any of you current admins/engineers know of any contractors that may take me on to do the grunt work on a pt basis while I do help desk?

Yes NOCs want experienced people. So what? Do you know what the turnover is like in almost every single NOC? Really high.

Perception is 9/10ths of reality. Including how you perceive and present yourself. When you talk to someone interviewing you, tell them you have over 4 years of IT experience.

Working in a NOC is not all about configuring routers and switches. It has much more to do with monitoring them. If you want to go from helpdesk to network engineering you need start out in a NOC, but working in a NOC for you will likely mean monitoring - not configuring.

If you just come at this job search from a slightly different angle I think you could be working in a NOC within 3 months.

ccnxjr

This is a lot of good, useful information.
Most of my colleagues at work give their sympathies and i hear the usual "things will get better if you just think positive!" , "work hard and in time it'll pay off" (this advice comes from the people that spend 3 hrs of the day discussing their new smartphone apps and toys, they clearly are not working hard)

Just as important as the effort is the direction i channel that effort!
This is a lot of good, useful information.
Most of my colleagues at work give their sympathies and i hear the usual "things will get better if you just think positive!" , "work hard and in time it'll pay off" (this advice comes from the people that clearly are not working hard)

Just as important as the effort is the direction i channel that effort!
I know I'm a hard worker, but I need this direction component and in less ambiguous terms than just "think about what you want and go for it!"
If I can demonstrate knowledge of the system, and prove that physical contact is my ONLY shortcoming then things may turn around.
*should* be common sense, but when your in the midst of user-support hell it's hard to see the obvious (me and one other handle calls/e-mails/walk-ins for over 2500 users, as well as handle user account maintenance)

The "hustle" and marketing is clearly my weak spot, my prior supervisor did mention that i need to work on being more assertive in my personal interaction.

Tuesday I'm interviewing for this position

Senior Technology & Network Consultant

even though I applied for this one

Associate Technology & Network Consultant

The networking (people) thing is certainly something i need to work on.
I've been paying dues to IEEE for over 3 yrs now, it's about time i visit their events and start becoming an active participant, and I've just registered for the NYC Financial Tech professionals meetup (awesome site i think ).


My priorities are now
1) Learning specific technologies that I do fall short on during some interviews.
-6500 series switches seems to come up a lot, I can't buy one of those, but at least i can read the product specs and mull over the sample configs
-MPLS & BGP seems to be talking points, at least get a good overview on how they work and how to configure the DTE end of it.
-Network monitoring tools and suites. SpiceWorks, Nagios and SCOM seem to be popular.

2) Finding those people who can appreciate that I am learning those technologies, through meetups

3) spend tomorrow interviewing myself (using a voice recorder) and start learning how to talk like a network engineer and not as a desktop support guy. Acknowledge the value of my experience and do something about my shortcomings.

4) Honing my network troubleshooting/configuring skills to be as sharp as my desktop skills. I don't work with routers/switches daily, which means I still need to run sims to stay sharp, can't just sit on my certs.

5) Not letting my 9-5 er bleed into my personal life

This is just the kind of solid, practical advice i need to hear.
I wish i did ask for this sort of help earlier, better late than never!
It is greatly appreciated!

dstock7337

A lot of what the other folks have said in here is true. I've learned a lot from my days of sales and from many different people over the years - it is all in your presentation. You should be selling people on your accomplishments and put everything about yourself in a positive light.

When you interview for a job - it is a sales pitch for your skills and services. Avoid negatives! Refrain from no's, can'ts, not's, won'ts, etc. If you went out to go buy a TV or a microwave, would you want to still buy it if the description or the sales guy says "It can't do this, and it never has done this, and although it can do this thing its not quite like this"? Heck no. Unless you want it as an expensive door stopper.

Point is that it is all about how you convey yourself and how much confidence you have in yourself. How you appear to others is the only thing they have to go off of. So if you're not confident in yourself, it'll show. Do something about it. A home lab is worth its weight, which must be a lot cause my equipment is heavvvy! The great thing is even if you buy some used stuff off of ebay cause its cheaper - that's okay. It is a heck of a lot better saying that yeah, I can set up some cisco 2500/2600s, i can set up a domain controller, DNS, dchp scopes on a real box -versus- I have no experience than labs.

That negative remark puts off your "prospective buyer" aka a potential employer and they've lost interest in anything you can say at that point.

BTW, last I remember, Devry offers career/job guidance including job boards, mock interviews, resume help etc. I suggest using those resources cause it really does help. Like others said, there really is no blueprint since every employer is looking for something different. If you are a fit, you'll get the job with the right attitude.

Hope this helps you a bit.