Cost of Education and the Value associated with it

sentimetal

it_consultant wrote: »

We used to have a real apprenticeship / vocational training in this country where people were trained for high paying jobs that were skill based. IT is skill based. Now we have a whole generation of people (I am in it) that have an automatic expectation that college it he route one must go. We had it beaten in our heads that we MUST go to college. No you don't, you need to have a skill.

This has the potential to turn into a discussion about secondary school tracking etc. that is not applicable to his board. We don't tell kids that it is OK to be a plumber or a transmission mechanic. I know Audi mechanics that I would have to get my MBA with a finance specialty in order to catch up too in salary. Should my Audi mechanic friends go to college?

Definitely this. The CFO, my boss, where I used to work had no degree, just a very good understanding of accounting principles, banking, and business. She was good at her job. Of course, she'd been with the organization for 20 years and had extensive experience in banking, loansm and finance.

College is a great idea, but for those living off loans on-campus, "experimenting with life and what they want to do" ... what do they do after they finish and they managed to rake up $70k in student loans with a degree English? I have friends who prancied around in college, which I'm not saying is a total bad thing - it definitely seems like a fun experience, but after switching majors a few times and finally deciding on business or civil engineering, they're making starting salaries of $35kish a year with $975/mo in student loans to Fannie Mae.

Public universities have always kind of ticked me off with their theoretical approach to everything. With computer science, you learn interesting stuff and I honestly think you can apply some of the things you learn if you go into IT, but it almost seems like the university tries to shovel the responsibility of learning specific technology such as NOS, IOS, Virtualization, etc on the employer. In turn, the employer thinks it is the responsibility of the college, and in the end it gets "dumped" on the student/graduate to learn these technologies.

Now, there is nothing wrong with self-study. In my opinion, those who are able to self-study for difficult IT certifications show a good work ethic and ability to work under supervision. If you're going after a B.S. in CS because you want to get into the IT field, though... it almost feels pointless to do so.

NOC-Ninja

I also want to add up that last month or 2, only 2 people graduated at CSUN with IT degree.

it_consultant

aethereos wrote: »

That's assuming going to college was a compromise. If college was affordable and decent, would you tell them NOT to go?

That depends huh, what are the options. If they were tired of being an Audi mechanic (one of them is) and they want to be an engineer, then they have to go to college. Going for the sake of going is a waste of time and talent. Perhaps they just want to go to broaden their horizons, that is fine too, it is their scratch on the line. In that case though, they are not doing it to get a better job.

An MBA from Brigham Young University can expect to make $90K out of the gate, I would say that value is very apparent. Same for engineers and other hard science degrees. The problem I recognize is that most students are not studying those disciplines and ASSUME that their degree in History translates to something in the real world, they are literally shocked to learn they are qualified to shovel gravel or serve fries. Hell, even Bachelors of Business degrees only gets you in entry level business jobs.

scalpelrush

Here is a video that could be related to this discussion, if you have the time, watch IT!!!

College Conspiracy YouTube - ‪College Conspiracy‬‏

In the end, I'm happy that I selected WGU as my University! Like they say on the video, Online Education is the Future!!!

sentimetal

scalpelrush wrote: »

Here is a video that could be related to this discussion, if you have the time, watch IT!!!

College Conspiracy YouTube - ‪College Conspiracy‬‏

In the end, I'm happy that I selected WGU as my University! Like they say on the video, Online Education is the Future!!!

That's kind of what I disliked about this video. It had great info but the end was kind of like "wat...?" Don't get me wrong, I think schools like WGU, but some of the online universities are very questionable in their curriculum methods.

Zartanasaurus

It depends on the degree and how far you want to go. Some career fields mandate education (teaching, law, medicine). Some fields you have to be educated in to have a career (math and sciences).

I don't think college is overrated for the people it would be good for. I just think that too many people who aren't college material coming out of HS are pushed into going to college. It's drilled into your head constantly how important college is and how you have to get into a good school if you don't want to work at Wal-Mart as a greeter for the rest of your life.

I think some people are ready for the 4-year college experience right away out of high school. And for those people, college is going to do them the most good. Then there's everyone else ranging from bright but lazy to not-so-bright and lazy. Going to college right away will probably be not so good for them.

My recommendation is to go to the best college that you can get into for relatively cheap. Going to a small state school on an almost full ride is better than paying out of pocket to go to Harvard. I would also recommend the average person go to a CC first. The real racket of colleges are the gen ed requirements. $600+/credit to take English Comp and College Algebra? Waste of money. Go to CC and get your transferable A.S. degree. Chances are you'll have a better chance of getting into a better college that way than applying straight out of school.

Compare:
60 credits at $200/ch at local CC = $130/month loan repayment. You can actually afford that if the best you can do in life is Wal-Mart greeter.

60 credits at $600/ch @ big name state school = $500/month loan repayment. That'd buy you a nice car to pick the ladies up in. It's very expensive to wash out at big colleges when you are paying out of pocket.

By the time those two years are up at CC, you'll know if you have what it takes to survive in the college environment when no one is taking attendance or calling your parents if you skip school or don't turn in homework. College is more about maturity and long-term planning than intelligence IMO.

From there, you can either get your foot in the door in a low-level IT job and maybe hope for some tuition reimbursement, or finish off college straight away. Either way, you'll be ahead of where most of your graduating class is at that time.

higherho

Skills come first and foremost and this was my experience in college.

So after watching that video I wanted to share the reason why I went to a 4 year technical college. When I graduated high school I passed and I was not a mature adult at all. At the time, I was like I could go into the military or go to College. I choose college because of two reasons. 1. I needed to get educated / grow mature and 2. I followed my friends.

Well only one of my friends out of the 5 of us that went graduated with a B.S and a A.A.S degrees and I actually felt that my years of wasting high school away was redeemed by getting educated in College in Business and Information Technology.

By the time I was a Junior in College I quickly started to realize the amount of debt that i was accumulating in my own name (at the time 20k in my name and by the time I graduated 36k in my name). So thats when I started looking into my education and asking myself " what classes are really helping me gain skills that will help me get job"? At the time in the business sense I was pretty confident but the IT sense was all over the place (I knew how to do basic administration of windows servers / batch scripts and some bash scripting). This is were the value of the education you receive comes into play. My original argument in the main posts shows that the majority of teachers at my school were not providing the skills I needed. So of course I was getting scared. The education side of the fence really helped me expand my horizons, made be a better troubleshooter, better people skills, and made me a critical thinker but then I thought to myself "I need more skills" .

1.5 year's left (Why that half a year? During that time I took the whole Cisco Network Academy (CCNA) and two CCNP courses in the CCNP academy) I needed a job for experience in the field and that's when I was getting into my Networking job with the college and before that I was a technical support analyst.

After I graduated, I quickly realized that if I did not get the job experience and take the network academy I would be in big trouble. Just like my friend is now were he is still searching for a job a year later after he graduated from Penn State. So I thank Cisco and those jobs for providing me the entry level skills I needed to get into a job that paid me very well ($38 to $43k a year). This is why I joined this forum to keep expanding my technical knowledge through other technical people and educating myself even more by studding for certifications and gaining the most important thing experience.

Now when I come home, I feel that I am going on the right road and money will keep going up (as long as the job is there to supply it). How much debt I'm in if I include the loans my mom took out for me? 80k..... Thankfully my mom works for the state (15 years now) and we found ways to get her side forgiven after a period of time. Was this whole experience worth it? I think it drastically changed me from who I was when I was younger to who I am now so in that sense yes. Cost? no. MY wife's mom works for that school took and she got free education for 4 years!! so lucky.

higherho

my buddy who graduated with me, He knew about his debt and he paid it all over in two years. however, the way he did it was a little unrealistic. He got a job paying 55k a year right out of college. He lived with his mother, did not pay any rent or for anything. Every single penny of his pay check went right to his student loans. When I say him during those two years it was like I was looking at a bum but he did not have to wait 10 years to pay off his loans so I guess it worked out for him.

Kasor

Considering student loan is a way to build your credit history. It's part of your life and a way that most American have to face it. I'm 110% agree today education fee is over price.

A lot of time that you don't get the education or training that you need. That's why many people choose to go to Technical school. I"m only talking about IT/Engineer/Mechanic/technical field.

blargoe

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

It depends on the degree and how far you want to go. Some career fields mandate education (teaching, law, medicine). Some fields you have to be educated in to have a career (math and sciences).

I don't think college is overrated for the people it would be good for. I just think that too many people who aren't college material coming out of HS are pushed into going to college. It's drilled into your head constantly how important college is and how you have to get into a good school if you don't want to work at Wal-Mart as a greeter for the rest of your life.

I think some people are ready for the 4-year college experience right away out of high school. And for those people, college is going to do them the most good. Then there's everyone else ranging from bright but lazy to not-so-bright and lazy. Going to college right away will probably be not so good for them.

My recommendation is to go to the best college that you can get into for relatively cheap. Going to a small state school on an almost full ride is better than paying out of pocket to go to Harvard. I would also recommend the average person go to a CC first. The real racket of colleges are the gen ed requirements. $600+/credit to take English Comp and College Algebra? Waste of money. Go to CC and get your transferable A.S. degree. Chances are you'll have a better chance of getting into a better college that way than applying straight out of school.

Compare:
60 credits at $200/ch at local CC = $130/month loan repayment. You can actually afford that if the best you can do in life is Wal-Mart greeter.

60 credits at $600/ch @ big name state school = $500/month loan repayment. That'd buy you a nice car to pick the ladies up in. It's very expensive to wash out at big colleges when you are paying out of pocket.

By the time those two years are up at CC, you'll know if you have what it takes to survive in the college environment when no one is taking attendance or calling your parents if you skip school or don't turn in homework. College is more about maturity and long-term planning than intelligence IMO.

From there, you can either get your foot in the door in a low-level IT job and maybe hope for some tuition reimbursement, or finish off college straight away. Either way, you'll be ahead of where most of your graduating class is at that time.

Spot on, best answer of this thread so far.

Furthermore, the CC option is honestly the best bargain out there for many of us who chose to ultimately work toward completing a 4-year degree at an institution of higher learning. I get people wanting to have the "college experience" of getting away from their parents and "finding themselves" and all that, but I think it's quite stupid to pay 20K+ per year to do so for 4 years, when you can get many of the same classes out of the way for the first 1-2 years at a CC for 90% of the cost, and then transfer in the credits.

As it relates to IT, I don't think four years of college is an absolute requirement, but in the long run, it will be the exception rather than the rule for someone to have a long and fulfilling IT career without at least a 2-year technical degree.

afcyung

Going to school is important, buts its relative to your goals in life. Do you want to become a manger? Then school is a good way to show you are a cut above. The problem most people face is the keeping up with the jones mentality that a lot of people have. You dont need to attend a 4 year college right out of high school. CC is a great way to get your gen eds out of the way. Also basic college comp and public speaking is key to effective communications. There are some skills that gen eds to teach that you can use. Are you trying to convince management that you need to buy an expensive new toy to improve network performance, communicating that effectively is key.

NetworkingStudent

higherho wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

I want to make out that I do not think college is worthless and I would appreciate it if we can keep this discussion as civil as possible. Students seeking an education should not have to be in debt for 30 years just because they want to improve themselves.

So this morning (7:20 am roughly) I got into a random debate on Facebook about this issue regarding cost of education. First I did not have my cup of coffee so I most likely could have made my arguments better and I just woke up but this topic just gets on my nerves. I could have made a better debate but I want to know what you guys think.

Attached is the debate I had with an individual I went to school with and now he is teaching at the college (and also got the last half of his education for free and can go to Penn state for 75% off for a masters degree). He also does technical work at the college.

my overall point is that teachers at my college (most of them not all) gave me and many other students the impression that they knew very little about IT and its current state. The education provided by them was worthless and if I Did not take the network academy, or other IT / Non IT based classes that I knew were worth it then I would have regretted the overall experience.

I had a comment a while ago on Facebook about the tuition cost was going up and I said that instead of increasing tuition costs they should cut professors pay.

btw some of the professors I mention did not even work in the field or they did but it was so long ago that they keep teaching old information and not keeping up with the new.


EDIT

Plus think about this:
. The pay of professors. Why increase tuition on students when professors make a ton of money and can easily cut back? Or some even get pay increases. This part really disturbs me because you are teaching! How difficult is it really to teach students that warrant high double figures to triple figure salaries?

I believe college is what you make of it. It does require a certain level of maturity and reasonability to be successful. It’s not for everyone because it demands a certain level of commitment and dedication. Also, it requires people to understand that after obtaining a degree ,they could make more money and have a better quality of life. In my opinion, I believe that college isn’t for people that want instant results.

At my college we had some sort of network management software called “Altiris”. This software prevented us from prevented us from doing a lot of labs. Now imagine that the teacher says “ok it’s lab time,but more often than not he mentions we can’t do the labs because we don’t have system admin rights, or that the network management software won’t give us access to the network.

I remember being in one class were the teacher would ask a student if we could do a lab, or if it would work. half the time the labs didn’t work.

My teacher was shocked and amazed at all certs I obtain, while in school. I got my A+, net+, and Sec+ when I was in school. He said he never saw anyone get so many while in school, let alone hasn’t seen anyone at school get the A+.
After this comment he pointed one to guy and said “ this guy has been in the IT program for 4 or5 years and doesn’t have one cert”

I remember a student would always make a comment about how the music students had a $20,000 to $100,000 lab, and he would always ask why the IT students couldn’t have an IT lab, of course nothing happened.

Here’s what I did…I got my certs while in school, obtained a 3.42 GPA, volunteered and joined TE forums.

it_consultant

It is worth pointing out that a lot of people who go to college are not "uneducated" per se, they are simply not college educated. My Audi mechanic friends I mentioned; had to work very hard to get into a selective Audi training center in Atlanta in order to become certified to work on those vehicles. Please don't mistake the lack of a college degree with being unschooled.

As far as IT programs go, I think the problems are related to how one would get the good and experienced IT professionals to teach in an IT program. In many cases those same individuals either have not degree or have a degree in an unrelated discipline. A college can't hire a non-degree'd person to teach a collegiate course. Therefore they end up hiring a lot of their own graduates to teach regardless of their real life experience, you can see how keeping that talent pool restricted is not helpful to the curriculum.

sentimetal

Extreme tuition hikes ahead - Colleges increase tuition after state cuts (1) - CNNMoney

News like this makes you question the practicality of going for a 4 year degree if you're going to be paying back $60k+ in loans right after school.

instant000

My pay increased 25% after gaining a bachelor's degree. I have no college debt. I did not go to a high-priced school.

If I wanted to go to a school for a career boost in and of itself, then I would indeed go to a top-of-the-line school, and not a run-of-the-mill one.

I may have stated this before, but I'll state it again:
The single best thing any IT professional can do for their career is to join this forum: Free MCTS MCITP CCNA CompTIA and CISSP exams, study notes and forums.

Most of this site is about certification tests, to be sure, but the true value in this site comes from the real life advice and career mentoring.

TechExams 4 Life!

I'm hoping that the next generation of IT professionals will be much stronger than this one, able to learn from our mistakes.