SPLIT - Potpourri from IT consulting jobs now becoming US education and other stuff

it_consultant

Turgon wrote: »

Its not just endusers. We have gone through an aggressive recruiting drive for good support engineers. They are all from overseas and not cheap. Homegrown talent is taking point and click habits socially into their work. They do not read network fundamentals like they used to. The foreigners have less free time and less money and want a better life. They read books.

They actually teach science and technology in India and China, in the US and UK our students are "finding themselves" taking comparative English literature instead of math. Math might kill their spirit and make it easier for "the man" to hold them down.

Turgon

it_consultant wrote: »

They actually teach science and technology in India and China, in the US and UK our students are "finding themselves" taking comparative English literature instead of math. Math might kill their spirit and make it easier for "the man" to hold them down.

Your making a point there but I think I have missed it. Please qualify as I may agree with you. As for hard science, necessary, but lets not knock the arts. I have a History degree, never hurt my career and in life one of the best study choices I ever made.

it_consultant

Turgon wrote: »

Your making a point there but I think I have missed it. Please qualify as I may agree with you. As for hard science, necessary, but lets not knock the arts. I have a History degree, never hurt my career and in life one of the best study choices I ever made.

Its an attitude difference is the point. American students shy away from what is hard because if they work hard and do mediocre they won't get praise and their self esteem (which has been artificially inflated) will be ruined. We have taught an entire generation, myself included, that it is more important to be "fulfilled" then productive. I would be a million times more "fulfilled" if I were a writer, but I also like having a house, car, no debt, steady work, etc. I don't knock any course of study and as I mentioned in another thread I am a huge supporter of liberal arts studies. In the US though we are graduating more foreigners with math and science degrees (by percentage) then US born citizens by a wide margin.

This doesn't have much to do with the original topic except to say that as you alluded too, it is hard to find the talent domestically that you need. Additionally, as Bill Gates (I think) said, its not just that there are more Indian engineers then American ones, they are also better engineers.

Turgon

it_consultant wrote: »

Its an attitude difference is the point. American students shy away from what is hard because if they work hard and do mediocre they won't get praise and their self esteem (which has been artificially inflated) will be ruined. We have taught an entire generation, myself included, that it is more important to be "fulfilled" then productive. I would be a million times more "fulfilled" if I were a writer, but I also like having a house, car, no debt, steady work, etc. I don't knock any course of study and as I mentioned in another thread I am a huge supporter of liberal arts studies. In the US though we are graduating more foreigners with math and science degrees (by percentage) then US born citizens by a wide margin.

This doesn't have much to do with the original topic except to say that as you alluded too, it is hard to find the talent domestically that you need. Additionally, as Bill Gates (I think) said, its not just that there are more Indian engineers then American ones, they are also better engineers.

I think I understand your points. For me, the economic imperative is skewing things. In developing nations you can make a quantum leap in lifestyle by becoming x or y. So people pour in droves. In the west, science and technology does not offer the same jump. This needs to change. China didn't invent..it learned, and we taught them to make money.

zerglings

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

Thats good. Maybe I can go back to PI if they pay me the same amount that they pay me right now. lol

You know they wont. From what I heard, VZB (Verizon Business) is paying them 40-60K/month PHP ($950 - $1400/month) and I believe that is with good amount of experience. Without the experience, he/she will probably be making 15-25K/month PHP. That salary is not even half of what you're currently making right now.

it_consultant

Oh I disagree, the money made with math and science based degrees in America are far and away more profitable then arts based degrees. The leap in the standard of living is not as extreme in a first world country but it is certainly worth your while. Plus, there is a markedly different attitude in those countries then in the US as it relates to work ethic and work skills.

We used to NOT be like that at all. As a matter of fact we were the engineering captains of the world with companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Cisco, ATT, Siemens, Bell, etc being fed by domestic employees graduating from US public Universities. Now our public universities feed these companies foreign students because they are the ones willing to do the work. It isn't that American students are born more stupid then other students, we just don't push are ourselves like we used to.

Turgon

it_consultant wrote: »

Oh I disagree, the money made with math and science based degrees in America are far and away more profitable then arts based degrees. The leap in the standard of living is not as extreme in a first world country but it is certainly worth your while. Plus, there is a markedly different attitude in those countries then in the US as it relates to work ethic and work skills.

We used to NOT be like that at all. As a matter of fact we were the engineering captains of the world with companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Cisco, ATT, Siemens, Bell, etc being fed by domestic employees graduating from US public Universities. Now our public universities feed these companies foreign students because they are the ones willing to do the work. It isn't that American students are born more stupid then other students, we just don't push are ourselves like we used to.

Does everything have to be about being profitable? Sure a nation needs to create wealth, but we also need people not money mad who will take care of our people, in teaching, social work, nursing for our old folks. These areas need quality people too. There is also the arts which enriches society.

America got comfortable but there are still many people out there striving to better themselves.

it_consultant

Turgon wrote: »

Does everything have to be about being profitable? Sure a nation needs to create wealth, but we also need people not money mad who will take care of our people, in teaching, social work, nursing for our old folks. These areas need quality people too. There is also the arts which enriches society.

America got comfortable but there are still many people out there striving to better themselves.

I agree that its not all about profit, it is about productivity and innovation. In the 50s and 60s when there was a massive push to teach math and science (you know, to beat the commies) we didn't STOP teaching the arts we just pushed a little harder in the math and science arenas. In US public schools we have effectively stopped teaching math and science. American universities have specific remedial math courses for freshmen because they can't trust our high schools to teach math properly. Now we are in a situation where high paying jobs are sent overseas not because companies are greedy but because there aren't any qualified applicants here in the US.

What bothers me even more is that not only are we less intelligent on math and science we have the self esteem of a pro footballer with nothing to show for it. That is a subject of a different discussion though

LoMo

it_consultant wrote: »

I agree that its not all about profit, it is about productivity and innovation. In the 50s and 60s when there was a massive push to teach math and science (you know, to beat the commies) we didn't STOP teaching the arts we just pushed a little harder in the math and science arenas. In US public schools we have effectively stopped teaching math and science. American universities have specific remedial math courses for freshmen because they can't trust our high schools to teach math properly. Now we are in a situation where high paying jobs are sent overseas not because companies are greedy but because there aren't any qualified applicants here in the US.

What bothers me even more is that not only are we less intelligent on math and science we have the self esteem of a pro footballer with nothing to show for it. That is a subject of a different discussion though

I feel an Off Topic thread coming on!

Turgon

it_consultant wrote: »

I agree that its not all about profit, it is about productivity and innovation. In the 50s and 60s when there was a massive push to teach math and science (you know, to beat the commies) we didn't STOP teaching the arts we just pushed a little harder in the math and science arenas. In US public schools we have effectively stopped teaching math and science. American universities have specific remedial math courses for freshmen because they can't trust our high schools to teach math properly. Now we are in a situation where high paying jobs are sent overseas not because companies are greedy but because there aren't any qualified applicants here in the US.

What bothers me even more is that not only are we less intelligent on math and science we have the self esteem of a pro footballer with nothing to show for it. That is a subject of a different discussion though

Interesting. We need to get back to teaching people *properly*. But again, it seems that education is following an imperative..beat the commies, follow the dollars. How about just teaching people well? I take the point on maths and science. The chinese were finally defeated at the Annual World Mathematics games..by the Russians. Probably the only people who could do it as things stand. I know many Russians, they deeply love their country, do not hold a grudge on the past and remain friendly to visitors and dont follow the stock market. They study what they want to and read a lot too and make great food!

MrRyte

Turgon wrote: »

Does everything have to be about being profitable? Sure a nation needs to create wealth, but we also need people not money mad who will take care of our people, in teaching, social work, nursing for our old folks. These areas need quality people too. There is also the arts which enriches society.

America got comfortable but there are still many people out there striving to better themselves.

Noble as that may be; no one wants to choose a career that barely pays. And as for those who claim to choose a job they love for little or no pay, the struggles of paying bills will make them rethink that statement.

And sad to say; America seems to have become more complacent over the years.

it_consultant

I think we are in for a new normal in the US, one with Indians at a lot of very professional jobs. I have to stress that this is not necessarily a bad thing, my brother in law is Indian. I am only suggesting that we harness a little bit of that motivation (we can't use the commie boogeyman anymore) that is making Indians so successful here in the US and in India. This has an inevitable effect on IT as this is a math and science field.

MrRyte

it_consultant wrote: »

I agree that its not all about profit, it is about productivity and innovation. In the 50s and 60s when there was a massive push to teach math and science (you know, to beat the commies) we didn't STOP teaching the arts we just pushed a little harder in the math and science arenas. In US public schools we have effectively stopped teaching math and science. American universities have specific remedial math courses for freshmen because they can't trust our high schools to teach math properly. Now we are in a situation where high paying jobs are sent overseas not because companies are greedy but because there aren't any qualified applicants here in the US.

What bothers me even more is that not only are we less intelligent on math and science we have the self esteem of a pro footballer with nothing to show for it. That is a subject of a different discussion though

A situation that will be further compounded since a lot of states are laying off more and more teachers.....

Turgon

MrRyte wrote: »

Noble as that may be; no one wants to choose a career that barely pays. And as for those who claim to choose a job they love for little or no pay, the struggles of paying bills will make them rethink that statement.

And sad to say; America seems to have become more complacent over the years.

I dont think it's noble. It's an imperative. For me the quality of a society is not determined by an elite, which I believe a society does in fact need, it is determined by the actions and quality of life of everyday people. They are the society.

Turgon

it_consultant wrote: »

I think we are in for a new normal in the US, one with Indians at a lot of very professional jobs. I have to stress that this is not necessarily a bad thing, my brother in law is Indian. I am only suggesting that we harness a little bit of that motivation (we can't use the commie boogeyman anymore) that is making Indians so successful here in the US and in India. This has an inevitable effect on IT as this is a math and science field.

The Indians have been tooled up and brought on by the very people that relied on American talent when the going was good i.e western venture capitalists. I listened to a BBC documentary in 1997, there were western expats in India seeding the place for future offshoring. The infrastructure to do what has been happening was bankrolled and designed and engineereed by the west. It's not an Indian invention. It's by design and made in America.

higherho

About the Math and Sciences. From my own personal experience its not that I did not enjoy math ( I did like figuring out the problems (I liked calling them puzzles) with any formula they threw out at me) but the only reason why I did not go higher in math because it was not required to do my job. If my passion lied elsewhere (engineering, robotics, etc) then I would have taken more math.

Rappeller

Part of the problem is that our teachers have their hands tied. they have to pass some some to the next grade in order not to "hurt his self esteem" or to keep him playing some sport. If we as a country held our kids to a standard instead of finding an excuse for them to get by, we would all be better off. Before you think i don't know what I am talking about, I have a 13 year old son who I have been struggling with since 2nd grade about his spelling. I would look at his homework every night and have him correct it and he would tell me that his teacher didn't care as long as it was sounded out correctly. I didn't believe him until I talked to the teacher and was told that they couldn't hold all the students to a higher standard because of some disadvantaged youth in the classes. I had a come apart and spoke to the principal and school board and was told this was happening all across the country. Middle school is slightly better, but not by much. My son had to be retaught math. Luckily I taught him long division because they didn't. Sorry it just burns me up on how badly politically correctness is screwing up our schools.

it_consultant

India and China have both feverishly copied America's recipe for success, which doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that WE don't follow this recipe anymore! In many ways it mirrors how we copied a lot of the trade and commerce practices from the British Empire with great success when we were a younger country.

NOC-Ninja

zerglings wrote: »

You know they wont. From what I heard, VZB (Verizon Business) is paying them 40-60K/month PHP ($950 - $1400/month) and I believe that is with good amount of experience. Without the experience, he/she will probably be making 15-25K/month PHP. That salary is not even half of what you're currently making right now.

yah and that is why I am here. lol

tpatt100

Is any of this backed with any actual facts or just a bunch of anecdotal evidence.

Saw an article online and the top ten paying degrees now are all engineering related lol.

it_consultant

tpatt100 wrote: »

Is any of this backed with any actual facts or just a bunch of anecdotal evidence.

Saw an article online and the top ten paying degrees now are all engineering related lol.

Yes, I will have to dig around for the stats related to the percentage of foreign science and math students compared to Americans. I know they need remedial math because I was recently in college and had to take 2 levels of remedial math. I was told this was not uncommon! In fact I think the number bandied about was 60% of incoming freshmen need remedial math.

undomiel

it_consultant wrote: »

I know they need remedial math because I was recently in college and had to take 2 levels of remedial math. I was told this was not uncommon! In fact I think the number bandied about was 60% of incoming freshmen need remedial math.

I grew up with my father working as a professor at a university so I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the students and their lack of knowledge of the basics. The remedial classes were always packed for both english and math. The professors were always commenting on the students not even having a high school level of english.

it_consultant

undomiel wrote: »

I grew up with my father working as a professor at a university so I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the students and their lack of knowledge of the basics. The remedial classes were always packed for both english and math. The professors were always commenting on the students not even having a high school level of english.

What was interesting, from my experience, is that even though I needed to take two remedial math courses, I learned much more math in those courses then I ever had before. One could say that it was because I was more motivated when I was 24 then when I was 16, but I truly think the math was simply taught better. It didn't seem like such a friggin mystery anymore. The teachers knew their subject so well that they were able to catch me doing stupid things as I was doing them, and then were able to tell me how I needed to THINK in order to not make that mistake again.

I had a similar experience with English but my mother was insistent that I learn reading and writing very well so I was well prepared for college English. Now, having worked so long in IT, I find my writing has become very perfunctory and ordered because when explaining technical things, that's the only way that really works. I reread some things I post here and things I have wrote to other people and I think; "Dear God, I sound like a machine!".