Management flaw on my part

N2IT

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

And I'll clarify this a bit, because I am sounding like an unreasonable hardass.

Alot of stuff like this is handled within the team. Our convention is that the on-call technician handles any scheduled off-hours maintenance windows. After all, if something breaks, they're supposed to be the ones fixing it, and maintenance windows are generally when things start breaking.

Sometimes, there are certain maints that are better performed by certain members of the team, usually because it's a sensitive bit of work, and we want the person with the strongest skillset in that area to be the one performing the work. When that happens, we do a bit of horse-trading, where the guy who needs to do the maint is on call that week, and the guy that would have normally been on call covers that guys next on-call week. Sometimes personal commitments get in the way of that happening, and we either have to let the less-skilled guys handle it, or someone agrees to be gracious and do the extra work, but since we pay attention to what's going on and what needs to be done, those incidents are few and far between.

Now, *none* of this applies to emergency situations. If something serious is going on, it's all hands on deck. We all know that's the case ahead of time, and we accept that as part of our job role. But outside of that, we (and our manager) make every effort to be fair to each other and not screw each other over.

This explains exactly where I am at.

I like the way you mentioned if you work overtime or outside of hours of operation you are compensated a day. I utilize that tactic as well. I try to be as fair as possible. I am not perfect, nor do I try to be, but I do try to be fair. This is just another step in the right direction, but there is a learning curve. Just like when you first started answering phones or configuring production servers. It's just going to take some time.

I really do appreciate everyone out there sharing their experiences. It really helps take some of the edge off.

Excellent1

N2IT wrote: »

This explains exactly where I am at.

I like the way you mentioned if you work overtime or outside of hours of operation you are compensated a day. I utilize that tactic as well. I try to be as fair as possible. I am not perfect, nor do I try to be, but I do try to be fair. This is just another step in the right direction, but there is a learning curve. Just like when you first started answering phones or configuring production servers. It's just going to take some time.

I really do appreciate everyone out there sharing their experiences. It really helps take some of the edge off.

One thing I will say about some of the experiences you've shared, and that is not to take things personally when people behave in ways that are directly contrary to what you would do yourself. Over the last 11 years, I've had a minimum of 15-27 people reporting directly to me. Something that took me a long time to really internalize is that it doesn't matter how much you care for your people, how much you try to bend over backwards to communicate, train, encourage buy-in, etc, etc--there will ALWAYS be those people who hate you, their jobs, their lives, their dogs, their friends, their friend's dogs. These people will do the minimum to get by, always skate up to the line in insubordinate attitude / actions, while not quite crossing it. They poison the well, they sabotage any efforts made to get the team beyond the typical "fight the man" attitude that is so prevalent these days. You will always have this person (one or more, depending on how evil you were in a previous life ), so don't see their existence as a failure of leadership on your part: it isn't.

While you cannot change or control what people do, you can control how you react to it. Don't let these people push your buttons. Take any criticism leveled at you without taking it personally and analyze it objectively. The difficulty in doing this is directly proportionate to your passion to do the job well--the more you care, the harder it is to leave emotion out of it, but it's essential. If there are things that you need to improve, do so, and move on. If not, dismiss it and don't take it to heart (I find Ecc 7:21-22 to be applicable here, but ymmv).

In short, I've found the most difficult thing to do as a manager that cares a LOT about doing the job well is to ride that line between making upper management happy and keeping your people happy. Usually you will feel beat up by both sides, as both have inherently different goals (or at least different paths to those goals). In addition, if you're a control freak (something that I still struggle with), nothing sucks worse than being a manager. Why? When you're working with the tech, you have (mostly) direct and absolute control of your performance. You have a list of criteria that you're evaluated against, and you yourself dictate whether you meet those targets. As a manager, you're reliant on people with varying levels of commitment, skill, and competency to do the job you're responsible for the outcome for. There aren't enough hours in the day to do it yourself, so you're at their mercy. Obviously there are things you can do to position yourself for success, but there will always be that fine level of control you will lack in determining the outcome of any given measurable.

Anyway, insert the "random guy on the internet" disclaimer here. Good luck.

afcyung

You have to decide if you want to be a leader or a manager.

Leaders lead a team to accomplish a goal by motivating the team to excel. Leaders can explain the value of the tasks and the value the team has to the company. They have the respect of their subordinates. Respect is earned many ways not by being everyone's friend or everyone's enemy.

Managers just check boxes off as a task is complete hoping to get it done in time. Usually they lack the foresight to lean forward and get ahead of the curve. They don't understand their true job which is to be a someone that enables the team to accomplish its goals, they usually value their work more then the teams. Management is an aspect of leadership the reverse is not true.

I'm not sure what the contract states to be honest. That was taken care of by HR. (I can't know and do everything)

I suppose its nice to have a cop out but this won't fly the second you get in trouble for breaching a contract or terms of employment. As the leader you need to know and do everything for your team because who else will? This is the part that leads me to believe you are a manager. You don't even know what is expected of your subordinates yet you are upset they aren't working late nights. It is impossible to enforce a standard as set by the company if you don't even know what is expected of them.

You plan to implement a schedule but this is a change to the norm and you more then likely haven't done any type of "change management" step 1 being you need to get buy in from the effected people so they understand why and see its value otherwise you won't get the desired results.

Personally you need to check yourself because what you are doing is letting the stress you have from your bosses requests show through. You appear weak. If you can't handle the stress of the job and are taking it out on your team they will have zero respect for you and your boss will see this.

The type of situation you are in is what I have always called a trial by fire. You won't learn more about leadership then now but when you have cops out like "I can't know and do everything" you have already given up and the company should look elsewhere for their leadership team. The teams ineffectiveness is a direct reflection of your leadership or lack thereof. The best advice I can give you is to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get the job done.

For some good understanding of leadership http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFPAM36-2241.pdf check out Chapter 10 for leadership and the NCO responsibilities in chapter 9

powerfool

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I'm a team player, but I don't come to work out of a sense of altruism.

Yes!!! You are my friggin hero!!!

powerfool

WafflesAndRootbeer wrote: »

It sounds like you've worked for CompuCom before. That's their SOP to a T and they make you work unpaid overtime to boot.

Well, that is pretty standard for IT. And bottom line, if you are responsible for a certain area, you shouldn't need a lot of extra time if you are doing things right. I work at limiting the occurrences of incidents that have me working on the weekend or late hours. If it becomes habitual, it is either my fault, or I have not been allowed to do what is necessary to fix things.

At the moment, I am in the boat of not being allowed to do things... I am all for documentation and process, but our organization is overly bureaucratic... we have a situation where our Exchange 2003 clusters are becoming unavailable at regular intervals and I have a fix that has actually been tested in the lab... instead of fixing it in our maintenance window this weekend... I am taking a quick pass at a document on performing the fix, and this will have to be reviewed by two other people before it can be implemented... and when it is implemented, it will only be on one server.

Since it has already been tested, I think it would be reasonable to go ahead and perform it on one of the servers, and then spend the "burn in" time monitoring and finishing up the documentation before we perform it on all of the servers. This process it supposed to reduce the problems we have from changes, and I think it does a good job at that... however, our Exchange 2003 setup is huge and aging... and since I just took over responsibility for it as an engineer and my main task it to start working on our migration to 2010... I am being pulled in odd directions trying to keep everything in the air.

So, if you have control and you are working a lot of extra hours to keep things running... shame on you; if you are expected to have control and you are not permitted to fix things in a timely manner just to keep things running... shame on your employer.

If it is shame on your employer, then some expectation of compensation is completely warranted.

Forsaken_GA

Excellent1 wrote: »

While you cannot change or control what people do, you can control how you react to it. Don't let these people push your buttons. Take any criticism leveled at you without taking it personally and analyze it objectively. The difficulty in doing this is directly proportionate to your passion to do the job well--the more you care, the harder it is to leave emotion out of it, but it's essential. If there are things that you need to improve, do so, and move on. If not, dismiss it and don't take it to heart (I find Ecc 7:21-22 to be applicable here, but ymmv).

This is actually a pretty good lesson for employees as well. I've been the guy poisoning the well, but it was because I actually gave a damn about the team, while our manager just liked to pop in every once in awhile to delegate, and roll the crap downhill when upper management wasn't happy. I got into a very combative mentality because I felt like I was busting my ass to make the team the best it could be, and he was contributing nothing, just taking credit for our successes, while laying off blame for any failures.

The more this happened, the more I let my emotions get into it, and the less effective I became, and that frustration rippled throughout the team.

Finally, a friend in another department (who was the manager of said department, and had experience with this particular manager in the past) called me into his office, sat me down, and set me straight. He understood that my passion drove me, and that I was easily frustrated by road blocks put in my path, and that the way I was reacting was just helping to inflame the situation, not make it any better.

Unfortunately, that particular job, it was already too late. I was already pissed off well beyond the point of no return, and I walked a short time later. Thankfully my friend talked enough sense into me to not do it with any flare, and kept the parting nice and civil.

The important lessons I took out of it were the following:

#1 Employ the same strategy you would in a relationship - don't go to bed angry. If you've got a problem, get it out in the open. The longer you let it fester, the angrier you're going to get, and that's never good for anyone involved. No one likes (or worse, listens to) a raving lunatic. If you feel like you can't talk to your manager, find one of their peers and talk to them about it. If they can't help you directly, they may be able to offer you some insight in how to manage your manager. If you feel like you can't talk to anyone, that should be a big clue that you need to find another job.

#2 Nobody loves a prophet. If you see problems all around, but you can't suggest any feasible alternatives, then keep your mouth shut. By doing nothing but pointing out flaws (and pointing out that you were right, when those flaws become blatantly obvious to everyone else), you will gain a reputation as a negative person, and that's nearly impossible to shake once you've earned the label. Prepare your arguments against something you feel is wrong in a sound and logical manner, present your counter proposal, and if you get shot down, deal with it gracefully. Do not marry yourself to an idea you've had, especially when presented with information you did not know. Always allow for the possibility that you just might be wrong.

#3 Do not ***** to your teammates. Chances are, they are in the same boat as you, and having a big pity party with each other isn't going to make it any better. If your teammates start doing it around you, ask them to take it elsewhere. If they don't, remove yourself from the situation. Do not get caught up in office gossip if you can possibly avoid it. If our manager is being ineffective, rather than bitching to the team about it, I try and get everyone on the same page as to how we're going to deal with it in a constructive manner. Just because our boss may be a frigging idiot doesn't give us license to follow suit. While it may not be nice, enduring the bosses presence with smiles and nods that are the equivalent of 'yes dear', and then dealing with things internally when he's not paying attention tends to work out better than trying to inflame anarchy and open rebellion.

#4 Sometimes you need to just lay off and chill the fark out. There is such a thing as caring too much. You have to remember that at the end of the day, it's a job, not a Holy calling from the Lord (unless you're a minister, in which case, ok, but for most of us...)

These are all things I have to remind myself of fairly frequently, and sometimes it's very difficult to choke down that impulse to rip someone's head off in a very dramatic and public way. I recognize those childish impulses for what they are, and try not to let them slip out. It's the only way to stay sane, and not be looking for a new job every few years.

kingslayer

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

If you don't want to be exploited, you need to set your boundaries very clearly, and very early.

This is a mistake I made with my current (and first IT) job, I guess out of sheer inexperience and naivety.

Things have become unbearable now, so Im looking for a new job.

You know how you know you're underpaid? If after only 2 days of sending out applications you've been invited to interview for 3 jobs, all of them being 5-10k more than what you get paid now.

N2IT

afcyung wrote: »

You have to decide if you want to be a leader or a manager.

Leaders lead a team to accomplish a goal by motivating the team to excel. Leaders can explain the value of the tasks and the value the team has to the company. They have the respect of their subordinates. Respect is earned many ways not by being everyone's friend or everyone's enemy.

Managers just check boxes off as a task is complete hoping to get it done in time. Usually they lack the foresight to lean forward and get ahead of the curve. They don't understand their true job which is to be a someone that enables the team to accomplish its goals, they usually value their work more then the teams. Management is an aspect of leadership the reverse is not true.


I suppose its nice to have a cop out but this won't fly the second you get in trouble for breaching a contract or terms of employment. As the leader you need to know and do everything for your team because who else will? This is the part that leads me to believe you are a manager. You don't even know what is expected of your subordinates yet you are upset they aren't working late nights. It is impossible to enforce a standard as set by the company if you don't even know what is expected of them.

You plan to implement a schedule but this is a change to the norm and you more then likely haven't done any type of "change management" step 1 being you need to get buy in from the effected people so they understand why and see its value otherwise you won't get the desired results.

Personally you need to check yourself because what you are doing is letting the stress you have from your bosses requests show through. You appear weak. If you can't handle the stress of the job and are taking it out on your team they will have zero respect for you and your boss will see this.

The type of situation you are in is what I have always called a trial by fire. You won't learn more about leadership then now but when you have cops out like "I can't know and do everything" you have already given up and the company should look elsewhere for their leadership team. The teams ineffectiveness is a direct reflection of your leadership or lack thereof. The best advice I can give you is to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get the job done.

For some good understanding of leadership http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFPAM36-2241.pdf check out Chapter 10 for leadership and the NCO responsibilities in chapter 9

This has snow balled into a beat up fest. I mentioned one flaw and now I can't get it done or I am "weak".

Well transitioning in and up seating an incumbent is not the easiest thing in the world. I utilized my past experiences with ITIL best practice to transition our service into a new environment. The goal was for it be transparent and according to upper management and all senior leadership it has been. (We just had a quarterly review). In fact I received praise from our client and the company I work for with one of the biggest stakeholders mentioning he has never seen a transition go so smoothly. Sounds like a win to me. I also had to deal with a upper manager quitting due to the stress in the infancy of the transition. I had to fill two sets of shoes that was difficult, but showed strength. I can't tell you the amount of times I had someone come up to me and say they couldn't believe I was still there, due to stress and the amount of work I had to perform.

The team has been working hard and I have made it a point to let these guys know we couldn't get it done without them. We have implemented a 100 dollar cell phone reimbursement plan and a few other perks to show we aren't all talk. I am consistently taking them out to lunch on my dime and listening to what they have to say. I care maybe too much like Forsaken mentioned in one of his post. My biggest challenge is taking the emotion out of it. Facts base decision is the best way to make a decision. Remove the emotion out you can make a clear decision. Whether it's removing an employee or providing an monetary bonus or hourly raise.

I don't care who you are, there is always going to be a learning curve. Turgon mentioned that it takes at least 2 years to really hit your stride. With 13 months total IT management experience and 6 in this new environment I can buy in the fact it will take two years.

Stiltz79

I don't feel bad for these technicians one bit. When you choose IT as a profession, you should know that no matter where you go, there is going to be off-hours work. Being on-call and completing maintenance is part of the job. It's a given. When I was in college just 5 years ago, I was the IT Major Campus Ambassador. I spoke to all of the new IT Majors coming into the campus. The 2 things I stressed are:

1. Expect to be on-call and working after normal hours without extra pay or compensation.

2. Expect to be going to school or training the rest of your career.

If they can't accept these 2 statements, then they are in the wrong career. That's life in the IT Industry. I work all day, I then go home and play with the same technologies along with looking for new ones at home. I still have time to spend with my family and do the things I love.

No I am not a manager either.

Turgon

powerfool wrote: »

Since it has already been tested, I think it would be reasonable to go ahead and perform it on one of the servers, and then spend the "burn in" time monitoring and finishing up the documentation before we perform it on all of the servers.

The issue there is that if you make an exception on that basis then everyone will want to do it. Also if you proceed and everyone gets pulled into P1's elsewhere after the application of the fix the the documentation often never gets done..

Everyone

I had to LOL @ afcyoung... sounds like someone recently went to ALS. LOL. Wait until you get into the corporate world, you have to do both.


@N2IT

I skimmed over most of this... are you pushing back at your management? When the "**** rolls down hill" as they say, you can't just step out of the way and let it roll right over your team. You need to at least give the appearance that you are fighting back against things like working extra hours. Doing it yourself, as you seem to have learned, isn't the answer either. It will get better with time, but you have to be the bad guy every once in a while, not just with your employees, but with those above you as well.

Arysta

Stiltz79 wrote: »

I don't feel bad for these technicians one bit. When you choose IT as a profession, you should know that no matter where you go, there is going to be off-hours work. Being on-call and completing maintenance is part of the job. It's a given. When I was in college just 5 years ago, I was the IT Major Campus Ambassador. I spoke to all of the new IT Majors coming into the campus. The 2 things I stressed are:

1. Expect to be on-call and working after normal hours without extra pay or compensation.

2. Expect to be going to school or training the rest of your career.

If they can't accept these 2 statements, then they are in the wrong career. That's life in the IT Industry. I work all day, I then go home and play with the same technologies along with looking for new ones at home. I still have time to spend with my family and do the things I love.

No I am not a manager either.

This really depends on where you work. I've never experienced working overtime with no pay. On-call time where I work is also very structured and rare. I rarely work overtime because I don't want to -- they're cool with it and I even recently received a promotion.

I'm pretty sure I tend to do more in 8 hrs than most of the slackers I work with do in 16, though. After my promotion, I actually offered to take up more duties because if I only did only what the previous guy did, I'd seriously be sitting there doing nothing for 4-6 hrs a day.

Stiltz79

I'm salary so overtime is not paid.... Like I said, it's expected. Especially since I just recently got into a Server Administrator Position. I grew up with my father being in IT. I remember as a kid him having to dial in during the night for Production Support and having to work some weekends for maintenance and upgrades. So I was raised that it's part of the job. It adds to your experience and helps your career in the future.

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

This has snow balled into a beat up fest. I mentioned one flaw and now I can't get it done or I am "weak".

Well transitioning in and up seating an incumbent is not the easiest thing in the world. I utilized my past experiences with ITIL best practice to transition our service into a new environment. The goal was for it be transparent and according to upper management and all senior leadership it has been. (We just had a quarterly review). In fact I received praise from our client and the company I work for with one of the biggest stakeholders mentioning he has never seen a transition go so smoothly. Sounds like a win to me. I also had to deal with a upper manager quitting due to the stress in the infancy of the transition. I had to fill two sets of shoes that was difficult, but showed strength. I can't tell you the amount of times I had someone come up to me and say they couldn't believe I was still there, due to stress and the amount of work I had to perform.

The team has been working hard and I have made it a point to let these guys know we couldn't get it done without them. We have implemented a 100 dollar cell phone reimbursement plan and a few other perks to show we aren't all talk. I am consistently taking them out to lunch on my dime and listening to what they have to say. I care maybe too much like Forsaken mentioned in one of his post. My biggest challenge is taking the emotion out of it. Facts base decision is the best way to make a decision. Remove the emotion out you can make a clear decision. Whether it's removing an employee or providing an monetary bonus or hourly raise.

I don't care who you are, there is always going to be a learning curve. Turgon mentioned that it takes at least 2 years to really hit your stride. With 13 months total IT management experience and 6 in this new environment I can buy in the fact it will take two years.

I shouldn't beat yourself up. It's easy for someone to come on here and berate you about a fluid situation of which they know very little. You are hitting targets which is the important thing. The rest you will get right with experience. You do have to learn when to let some things go, when to give slack and when to take it up. There are many managers in the world, and many of them are not very good at it. That is because contrary to popular belief it is often not easy to manage really well. It requires effort and application as well as nouce and discretion and an ability to lead and handle stressful situations and difficult people. All qualities sadly lacking in many people who berate managers or indeed are managers!

N2IT

Turgon wrote: »

I shouldn't beat yourself up. It's easy for someone to come on here and berate you about a fluid situation of which they know very little. You are hitting targets which is the important thing. The rest you will get right with experience. You do have to learn when to let some things go, when to give slack and when to take it up. There are many managers in the world, and many of them are not very good at it. That is because contrary to popular belief it is often not easy to manage really well. It requires effort and application as well as nouce and discretion and an ability to lead and handle stressful situations and difficult people. All qualities sadly lacking in many people who berate managers or indeed are managers!

Thanks for the encouraging words.

Turgon circling back about 7 months I remember letting everyone know on this forum that I recieved a new position. After describing the job and what it entailed you went on record saying that this was going to be an extremely difficult job.

You couldn't have been more correct.

N2IT

Everyone wrote: »

I had to LOL @ afcyoung... sounds like someone recently went to ALS. LOL. Wait until you get into the corporate world, you have to do both.


@N2IT

I skimmed over most of this... are you pushing back at your management? When the "**** rolls down hill" as they say, you can't just step out of the way and let it roll right over your team. You need to at least give the appearance that you are fighting back against things like working extra hours. Doing it yourself, as you seem to have learned, isn't the answer either. It will get better with time, but you have to be the bad guy every once in a while, not just with your employees, but with those above you as well.

I pick my battles no question about it. I acknowledge they have more experience and probably know more than I. So I usually listen, but sometimes I feel convicted and step up. Both to my management and my employees.

I agree doing it myself isn't the answer. Funny thing is I just recently was approached by too of my employees who volunteered to work this coming up weekend. I think the hard work and communication plan has started to gain traction.

kingslayer

Stiltz79 wrote: »

1. Expect to be on-call and working after normal hours without extra pay or compensation.

If they can't accept these 2 statements, then they are in the wrong career. That's life in the IT Industry.

Being in IT and not being compensated for your time are two separate things that have nothing to do with each other.

Forsaken_GA

Stiltz79 wrote: »

I don't feel bad for these technicians one bit. When you choose IT as a profession, you should know that no matter where you go, there is going to be off-hours work. Being on-call and completing maintenance is part of the job. It's a given. When I was in college just 5 years ago, I was the IT Major Campus Ambassador. I spoke to all of the new IT Majors coming into the campus. The 2 things I stressed are:

1. Expect to be on-call and working after normal hours without extra pay or compensation.

2. Expect to be going to school or training the rest of your career.

The second sentiment, I can agree with entirely.

The first sentiment.... not so much. IT Professionals are often compared to doctors and lawyers. You think those two professions aren't going to charge you if they do off hours work for you?

You should expect to work off-hours, that's a given. Maintenance windows during regular business hours are usually unacceptable. Not being compensated for your time as a given? Yeah, no. If you feel that your time isn't worth that much, your employer will be happy to exploit it for their gain. If you do believe your time is worth something, you either need to negotiate a schedule that doesn't set you up to work 50+ hours a week, or negotiate compensation to make working that much extra worth it.

Not all of us are willing to be doormats, and if you're counseling new entrants into the field to act as such, you are doing them a grave disservice.

Stiltz79

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

The second sentiment, I can agree with entirely.

The first sentiment.... not so much. IT Professionals are often compared to doctors and lawyers. You think those two professions aren't going to charge you if they do off hours work for you?

You should expect to work off-hours, that's a given. Maintenance windows during regular business hours are usually unacceptable. Not being compensated for your time as a given? Yeah, no. If you feel that your time isn't worth that much, your employer will be happy to exploit it for their gain. If you do believe your time is worth something, you either need to negotiate a schedule that doesn't set you up to work 50+ hours a week, or negotiate compensation to make working that much extra worth it.

Not all of us are willing to be doormats, and if you're counseling new entrants into the field to act as such, you are doing them a grave disservice.

If you're salary there is no extra compensation. If you want to get far in this field then you do what you have to do.

Forsaken_GA

N2IT wrote: »

I pick my battles no question about it. I acknowledge they have more experience and probably know more than I. So I usually listen, but sometimes I feel convicted and step up. Both to my management and my employees.

I have alot of friends and acquaintances who are former military. And they've always told me they could tell a good officer from a bad one in about 5 minutes. The bad ones came in all fire and brimstone and flaunting their authority. The good ones were smart enough to acknowledge that their senior NCO's often knew more than they did, and actively sought out their advice, and actually listened to it. Which isn't to say they were pushovers. They made their own decisions, and they owned those decisions, and their men respected them for it.

I've always kept that in mind, and I've found it's very applicable to the private sector as well.

Forsaken_GA

Stiltz79 wrote: »

If you're salary there is no extra compensation. If you want to get far in this field then you do what you have to do.

Sure there is. You negotiate it up front. You really think the number they name when they offer you the job is the only number you can possibly get?

When I was interviewing for my current job, I named what I wanted for salary. They didn't blink and accepted it. During the course of the interview, it came to light that there was an expectation to do off hours work and on-call. That hadn't been mentioned before, and I hadn't figured it into my initial salary request. I told them as much, and stated that if that was part of the job requirements, then my salary requirements were higher, and I expected my cell phone bill to be reimbursed. They didn't even try and negotiate my number, they just accepted what I asked for (which means I probably didn't ask for enough, but I got what I felt was worth my time, so I was satisfied), and we compromised on a limit for the phone reimbursement.

I was able to do this because I was dealing from a position of strength. I already had a job, I wasn't desperate to move, and I had some very solid recommendations from well-regarded current employees. And I wasn't the least bit afraid to walk away. Smart companies know talent when they see it, and they will pay for it, but they're not going to offer it to you just to be nice, you do have to ask for it.

You do what you have to do, sure, but you don't *have* to be somebody's *****. That's something you choose to do. There's a very large difference.

TLeTourneau

Stiltz79 wrote: »

If you're salary there is no extra compensation. If you want to get far in this field then you do what you have to do.

Well I've been in this field as a salaried employee for quite some time and although call-ins and maintenance CAN BE (and usually are) part of the job every employer I've ever worked for (some very large) have offered reasonable comp time for it. I consider that compensation, and I've always been very clear about my expectations with that with every prospective employer I've ever dealt with. Salaried does not equal indentured servant!

Stiltz79

Where I work you're expected to do a lot of research and learning on your own. They'll pay for books but they expect you to play and learn technologies at home on your own time. Our salaries are below average here and we even pay for our own medical insurance. The BIG +++ here is the year end bonus. Depending on our company's sales, our year end end bonus could be pretty substantial. Last year I got 52% of yearly salary. This year we are riding around 78% so far. If that stays the same and say I make $50k, it's really cool to receive a check for somewhere around $40k minus taxes. You get some pretty interesting looks at the bank.....

kingslayer

Stiltz79 wrote: »

Where I work you're expected to do a lot of research and learning on your own. They'll pay for books but they expect you to play and learn technologies at home on your own time. Our salaries are below average here and we even pay for our own medical insurance. The BIG +++ here is the year end bonus. Depending on our company's sales, our year end end bonus could be pretty substantial. Last year I got 52% of yearly salary. This year we are riding around 78% so far. If that stays the same and say I make $50k, it's really cool to receive a check for somewhere around $40k minus taxes. You get some pretty interesting looks at the bank.....

Research and learning, fine. The skills and knowledge stay with you so its an investment on yourself.

But having to work unpaid overtime to make up for poor management and understaffing (all because the CEO is too cheap/greedy to hire more people) is unacceptable..regardless of industry.

Forsaken_GA

Stiltz79 wrote: »

Where I work you're expected to do a lot of research and learning on your own. They'll pay for books but they expect you to play and learn technologies at home on your own time. Our salaries are below average here and we even pay for our own medical insurance. The BIG +++ here is the year end bonus. Depending on our company's sales, our year end end bonus could be pretty substantial. Last year I got 52% of yearly salary. This year we are riding around 78% so far. If that stays the same and say I make $50k, it's really cool to receive a check for somewhere around $40k minus taxes. You get some pretty interesting looks at the bank.....

The expectation of keeping your skills current is not unreasonable.

But you freely admit that you're underpaid and your benefits aren't what they should be. But hey, they're dangling the carrot of a potentially big pay day in front of you.

Just my interpretation, but I think you're getting screwed, and it sounds like you're happy to let them do it.

rwmidl

Stiltz79 wrote: »

Where I work you're expected to do a lot of research and learning on your own. They'll pay for books but they expect you to play and learn technologies at home on your own time. Our salaries are below average here and we even pay for our own medical insurance. The BIG +++ here is the year end bonus. Depending on our company's sales, our year end end bonus could be pretty substantial. Last year I got 52% of yearly salary. This year we are riding around 78% so far. If that stays the same and say I make $50k, it's really cool to receive a check for somewhere around $40k minus taxes. You get some pretty interesting looks at the bank.....

I use to work for a company like this. They wouldn't pay for any IT training (when we rolled out XP and I asked for training, my boss said "no, you can figure it out".). I did have good benefits and got a good $$$$ raise every year.

That being said, it is a bit unreasonable for a company to expect you, on your own time, to learn/keep up with new technologies. If your job requirements are to keep up with technologies/certified, then they - the company - should help pay and train you.

Turgon

rwmidl wrote: »

That being said, it is a bit unreasonable for a company to expect you, on your own time, to learn/keep up with new technologies. If your job requirements are to keep up with technologies/certified, then they - the company - should help pay and train you.

The world is run by managers who don't understand technology. If it was run by technocrats you would get training in spades. It isn't. Had I not given up so much commute time, evening time and weekend time to learn and keep up, I would not have been effective and not have had the career and the job I have today.

petedude

rwmidl wrote: »

That being said, it is a bit unreasonable for a company to expect you, on your own time, to learn/keep up with new technologies. If your job requirements are to keep up with technologies/certified, then they - the company - should help pay and train you.

It's all well and good that the law in many states says employers can't demand directly that you pursue certifications on your own time. It's also somewhat reasonable to hope that employers will want to invest in your contribution to their efforts via training.

I have to say, though. . .Reading this thread, I'm a little concerned that we have a culture of entitlement among many IT folks in the US-- that is, "they" (the employer") SHOULD move our careers forward, and that we IT people should not have to have any investment in it. As many folks elsewhere in the 'net will tell you-- the reality is that YOU have to be in charge of your own career and invest in yourself. If you wait for private industry or the government to do it for you, you may not only be in for a long wait but also you will likely not get what you wanted.

GAngel

Outside of the U.K. and the North America there aern't many companies that pay for skill upgrades anymore. Those days are gone and past and why experience is such a big factor at senior levels now as opposed to certs 10 years ago.

It doesn't concern me in the least when i've upgraded to the next sufficient level I move on to bigger and better or ask for a promotion. We're already one of the highest paid and most mobile professions in the world time to stop demanding everything and just get on with it.

petedude

Stiltz79 wrote: »

If you're salary there is no extra compensation. If you want to get far in this field then you do what you have to do.

Adding to this a bit, as Stiltz hit a button. I recall reading posts around here about "putting family first" and "having a life", etc. It's good that folks want to be balanced, but what Stiltz said is very much true-- you do what you have to do. Hopefully, sacrifices in time and energy that would otherwise be devoted to other aspects of your life will either be temporary/can be made up/will be repaid later.

Two articles about "work/life balance" that are applicable (to one degree or another) here:
Work/life balance: What it does and doesn't mean | Adventures in IT - InfoWorld
It’s Not Your ‘Work’ and ‘Life’ That Need Balancing | BNET