Show Me the Money/Blackballed?

rwmidl

For the past few months I've been feeling very "stagnant" in my current role. I've discussed this with my manager and with his blessing I've been applying for some positions internally with my company (see one of my posts about it here ).

During the first part of July, there was an opening for a Systems Admin. The job description was, well "all over the place" in terms of what was wanted/skills. It was to the point where I wasn't sure "what they were wanting". I went ahead and applied, and got a face to face interview. During the interview, the big issue they were having was their current sys admin was getting ready to leave and in the past few months (I gathered 6+ months) the admin had not done any patches/vulnerability remediation and they were getting ready to have their servers disconnected if this wasn't taken care of ASAP. Yeah, that's no problem, I can do that in my sleep.

After the interview, I still didn't have the "warm and fuzzies" about the job (a few things weren't sitting right with me, if that makes sense). I hadn't been back at my desk 10 minutes when my manager called me, and they (the other manager) wanted to hire me. And wanted me to start in a week. Umm...ok. So I called the manager I interviews with to get some more details (specifically salary) and I was told since this was a lateral move, no salary increase. Ok, that I can understand but for internal postings we can see what the salary range for the job posting is. My current salary was only 4k higher than the very BOTTOM of the posted range. I brought this up to the manager, who then proceeded to give me a lecture on if I ever wanted to make "more money" I would need to get a Masters degree. As fyi, a Masters was NOT required for this position (only a Bachelors in CS or related field and/or 8 years experience). I have my Bachelors in Political Science but 11+ years of experience. So yeah, I'm very qualified if not "highly". After his "talk", he said he'd see what he can do.

I went home for lunch, talked it over with my wife and decided on declining the position. Mostly because after hearing what the job entailed, it didn't sound any different than what I'm currently doing (thus feeling stagnant) and to be honest, I feel like the manager was trying to F me on the money. I called my boss and told him I was declining based on I wasn't interested in the position. I called the hiring manager and before I could say anything he started in on the "happy to have you aboard" speech. I finally told him I was going to decline, as I felt I wasn't a good fit for the position. The manager paused, and then said "Oh, well we were going to offer you a raise". Again, remember at first they weren't going to. That weekend, I was talking to some friends who are in IT and told them about this and they agreed that they were trying to F me on the money. Jump ahead a few weeks, the position is still "open" but now there is a $2500 sign on bonus.

I just wanted to get some opinions. Do you think I was trying to get lowballed on the salary? I should also clarify, they never asked me during the interview what my requirements were, they just asked what is/was my current salary.

Also, by declining a position internally, do you think I run the risk of being "blackballed"? I'm happy in my decision to decline the offer as I think I wouldn't have been happy, but I'm also a little concerned that by declining it I might have been blackballed internally.

ehnde

My Aunt was in a similar position (she works in I.T.). She was asked to take a promotion to a new role with more responsibility and would get a raise of 10,000. She said up front that she would like to take the position, but she felt that the current salary for the position was not high enough with the responsibility it entailed. She told them she could only accept if the salary for that position was raised 20k over what it was currently listed at.

The ball was now in HRs court. After deliberation and fighting between HR and upper management, the appropriate changes were put in place, the listed salary for this position was raised, and she accepted the position.

You can see that she had a pretty good idea of how all of this was going to turn out, but couldn't be absolutely certain. Her mindset throughout the whole ordeal was "I'm perfectly fine in my current role if they don't want to make the change".

Is it too late for you to take this approach? If so maybe you could look for employment outside of your company if you are feeling stagnant? What you just went through had to have been an emotional rollercoaster - sorry to hear about it.

Devilry

I agree, I think you were being low balled. I think you made a good decision.

The only thing I can think of how this would benefit you would be 'resume title' for future employment, if you are in a position like help desk or the like.

Still, there is no reason they couldn't offer you at least 10-15% + signon bonus they are advertising.

zaxbysauce

Devilry wrote: »

I agree, I think you were being low balled. I think you made a good decision.

The only thing I can think of how this would benefit you would be 'resume title' for future employment, if you are in a position like help desk or the like.

Still, there is no reason they couldn't offer you at least 10-15% + signon bonus they are advertising.

If he was in a help desk role with 11 years of experience, a bachelors, and those certs...well then he must be awful at interviews lol.

rwmidl

Devilry wrote: »

I agree, I think you were being low balled. I think you made a good decision.

The only thing I can think of how this would benefit you would be 'resume title' for future employment, if you are in a position like help desk or the like.

Still, there is no reason they couldn't offer you at least 10-15% + signon bonus they are advertising.

Thanks. What really got me was they were so desperate to have someone fix these problems yet they weren't going to offer me any more. I think that is what bothered me more than anything.

rwmidl

zaxbysauce wrote: »

If he was in a help desk role with 11 years of experience, a bachelors, and those certs...well then he must be awful at interviews lol.

Hah! No I'm not help desk. I'm a Sys Admin/Windows SME in our lab.

rwmidl

ehnde wrote: »

My Aunt was in a similar position (she works in I.T.). She was asked to take a promotion to a new role with more responsibility and would get a raise of 10,000. She said up front that she would like to take the position, but she felt that the current salary for the position was not high enough with the responsibility it entailed. She told them she could only accept if the salary for that position was raised 20k over what it was currently listed at.

The ball was now in HRs court. After deliberation and fighting between HR and upper management, the appropriate changes were put in place, the listed salary for this position was raised, and she accepted the position.

You can see that she had a pretty good idea of how all of this was going to turn out, but couldn't be absolutely certain. Her mindset throughout the whole ordeal was "I'm perfectly fine in my current role if they don't want to make the change".

Is it too late for you to take this approach? If so maybe you could look for employment outside of your company if you are feeling stagnant? What you just went through had to have been an emotional rollercoaster - sorry to hear about it.

The salary range I had in my mind was in the middle of the posted range. I was more than willing to negotiate.

Devilry

rwmidl wrote: »

Hah! No I'm not help desk. I'm a Sys Admin/Windows SME in our lab.

haha I figured/hoped you were not, just using it as for example.

rwmidl

Devilry wrote: »

haha I figured/hoped you were not, just using it as for example.

I did do help desk for almost 7 years with another company.

Devilry

However it turns out, keep us informed and let us know what you do.

Sounds like you have a good grasp on things.

Best of luck!

rwmidl

Devilry wrote: »

However it turns out, keep us informed and let us know what you do.

Sounds like you have a good grasp on things.

Best of luck!

Thanks. I've reapplied for a position I interviewed for earlier in the summer (I have a post on that) internally, and I'm waiting to hear back on a phone interview with an external company. I'm "ok" with my current position - stagnant and bored, yes. But I'm not going to run away to the first available position. It has to be something I want to do, and will challenge me. I don't want to be doing the same ole same ole, let me work with something new, and challenge me. I also would like to make a bit more $$, but if it's an exciting position and something I'm interested in but at my current range, I'd be willing to take a look at it (I'd have to see what the position was, benefits, etc). I also have a few other irons in the fire, but they will probably take a lot longer to hear anything back on.

it_consultant

Salary negotiations are tough. I can say that HR pros tend to put a range of salary where they never intend to pay the upper third of the posted range. They do that so job seekers who search with higher salary expectations will see the posting. You feel like they low-balled you but in their head they might have offered you too much. They can find someone just like you but for less money.

With 11 years of experience you can afford to have some steel in your spine when it comes to salary. You can clearly articulate the reasons for your salary. Hey, IT has a 3.3% unemployment rate, you can get another job.

Zartanasaurus

I think it's common for HR/mgmt to undervalue current employees. "Hey he already makes $40K here, so if we give him $45K he should be thrilled!". But if it's an external candidate, they take on a grass is greener mentality. For instance... where I work, internal candidates who are selected for a position always get the minimum of the listed range. Always. No negotiation. Even if the director over that position asks for more. External candidates frequently get the top of the range or even more depending on how "desperate" that department is for someone at the time. That same level of desperation doesn't apply to internal candidates. We've had a particular position advertised about 6x over the last year. They had a really qualified internal candidate, but the bottom of the range amounted to a raise of a couple $k, where the previous employee who took it externally was paid $15K more than the bottom range. He declined and is making plans to move on. They advertised the position again, but took away the range and just listed it at what the low end was before because of the attempted salary negotiations. Yes, taking away the range will make more qualified candidates apply. :headexplode:

Getting that first chance to put System Administrator on your resume is important though, if you don't actually have that coveted experience check mark. But from your other post, you have 11+ years of admin experience. So I don't like the idea of getting no additional money for an increase in responsibility.

Just keep in mind that people are petty. Turning him down may have very well pissed him off to the point when he wants to blackball somehow. You never know. But it looks like you're willing to be patient and wait for the right offer to come along. Nothing wrong with that.

rwmidl

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

I think it's common for HR/mgmt to undervalue current employees. "Hey he already makes $40K here, so if we give him $45K he should be thrilled!". But if it's an external candidate, they take on a grass is greener mentality. For instance... where I work, internal candidates who are selected for a position always get the minimum of the listed range. Always. No negotiation. Even if the director over that position asks for more. External candidates frequently get the top of the range or even more depending on how "desperate" that department is for someone at the time. That same level of desperation doesn't apply to internal candidates. We've had a particular position advertised about 6x over the last year. They had a really qualified internal candidate, but the bottom of the range amounted to a raise of a couple $k, where the previous employee who took it externally was paid $15K more than the bottom range. He declined and is making plans to move on. They advertised the position again, but took away the range and just listed it at what the low end was before because of the attempted salary negotiations. Yes, taking away the range will make more qualified candidates apply. :headexplode:

Getting that first chance to put System Administrator on your resume is important though, if you don't actually have that covered experience check mark. But from your other post, you have 11+ years of admin experience. So I don't like the idea of getting no additional money for an increase in responsibility.

Just keep in mind that people are petty. Turning him down may have very well pissed him off to the point when he wants to blackball somehow. You never know. But it looks like you're willing to be patient and wait for the right offer to come along. Nothing wrong with that.

Thanks! I already have the "systems administrator" checked. I'm just wanting a new challenge, and I'm in no rush.

Since you said your HR department gives internal candidates the low end of the range, and external the high end, do you guys have a high degree of employees not changing position or turn over?

whatthehell

Total lowballing you! I have gone through 2 "non-raise" promotions, which totally sucked, and increased my workload, but I was informed by other coworkers that if I declined, I would be essentially blackballed by management for future promotions, requests, etc.

Basically, welcome to the corporate world! lol

Glad you didn't take it though, and sounds like your company is just plain old shady corporate!

Good luck!

Zartanasaurus

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

I think it's common for HR/mgmt to undervalue current employees. "Hey he already makes $40K here, so if we give him $45K he should be thrilled!". But if it's an external candidate, they take on a grass is greener mentality. For instance... where I work, internal candidates who are selected for a position always get the minimum of the listed range. Always. No negotiation. Even if the director over that position asks for more. External candidates frequently get the top of the range or even more depending on how "desperate" that department is for someone at the time. That same level of desperation doesn't apply to internal candidates. We've had a particular position advertised about 6x over the last year. They had a really qualified internal candidate, but the bottom of the range amounted to a raise of a couple $k, where the previous employee who took it externally was paid $15K more than the bottom range. He declined and is making plans to move on. They advertised the position again, but took away the range and just listed it at what the low end was before because of the attempted salary negotiations. Yes, taking away the range will make more qualified candidates apply. :headexplode:

Interesting update to this story and it fits within the blackballed theme.

He applied for another position here more in line with the salary he was looking for. By my estimate he was clearly the best candidate and would've been supervisor over the department he's in now. He didn't get the job. Confirmation from his director that his turning down the job previously negatively affected his chances this time.

Long story short, people are snakes.

Turgon

rwmidl wrote: »

For the past few months I've been feeling very "stagnant" in my current role. I've discussed this with my manager and with his blessing I've been applying for some positions internally with my company (see one of my posts about it here ).

During the first part of July, there was an opening for a Systems Admin. The job description was, well "all over the place" in terms of what was wanted/skills. It was to the point where I wasn't sure "what they were wanting". I went ahead and applied, and got a face to face interview. During the interview, the big issue they were having was their current sys admin was getting ready to leave and in the past few months (I gathered 6+ months) the admin had not done any patches/vulnerability remediation and they were getting ready to have their servers disconnected if this wasn't taken care of ASAP. Yeah, that's no problem, I can do that in my sleep.

After the interview, I still didn't have the "warm and fuzzies" about the job (a few things weren't sitting right with me, if that makes sense). I hadn't been back at my desk 10 minutes when my manager called me, and they (the other manager) wanted to hire me. And wanted me to start in a week. Umm...ok. So I called the manager I interviews with to get some more details (specifically salary) and I was told since this was a lateral move, no salary increase. Ok, that I can understand but for internal postings we can see what the salary range for the job posting is. My current salary was only 4k higher than the very BOTTOM of the posted range. I brought this up to the manager, who then proceeded to give me a lecture on if I ever wanted to make "more money" I would need to get a Masters degree. As fyi, a Masters was NOT required for this position (only a Bachelors in CS or related field and/or 8 years experience). I have my Bachelors in Political Science but 11+ years of experience. So yeah, I'm very qualified if not "highly". After his "talk", he said he'd see what he can do.

I went home for lunch, talked it over with my wife and decided on declining the position. Mostly because after hearing what the job entailed, it didn't sound any different than what I'm currently doing (thus feeling stagnant) and to be honest, I feel like the manager was trying to F me on the money. I called my boss and told him I was declining based on I wasn't interested in the position. I called the hiring manager and before I could say anything he started in on the "happy to have you aboard" speech. I finally told him I was going to decline, as I felt I wasn't a good fit for the position. The manager paused, and then said "Oh, well we were going to offer you a raise". Again, remember at first they weren't going to. That weekend, I was talking to some friends who are in IT and told them about this and they agreed that they were trying to F me on the money. Jump ahead a few weeks, the position is still "open" but now there is a $2500 sign on bonus.

I just wanted to get some opinions. Do you think I was trying to get lowballed on the salary? I should also clarify, they never asked me during the interview what my requirements were, they just asked what is/was my current salary.

Also, by declining a position internally, do you think I run the risk of being "blackballed"? I'm happy in my decision to decline the offer as I think I wouldn't have been happy, but I'm also a little concerned that by declining it I might have been blackballed internally.

Stay as you are Sergeant Major. You have a responsible job and do it well! If a company want's it's problems fixed then that's fine but they have to make it worth your while. If they don't politely decline. So long as you are effective at what you do, your promotion prospects are affected not a jot...all companies have problems..its not your job to fix them all. Somebody else needs to start doing their job properly..

buzzkill

Turgon wrote: »

Stay as you are Sergeant Major. You have a responsible job and do it well! If a company want's it's problems fixed then that's fine but they have to make it worth your while. If they don't politely decline. So long as you are effective at what you do, your promotion prospects are affected not a jot...all companies have problems..its not your job to fix them all. Somebody else needs to start doing their job properly..

OP was 6 months ago fella.

Would be interesting to see what transpired in the end though! Maybe now he will deliver an update.

networker050184

I don't see what the big deal is. If you are a system admin and moving laterally to another system admin position why should they give you a bump in pay? Am I missing something here?

ptilsen

networker050184 wrote: »

I don't see what the big deal is. If you are a system admin and moving laterally to another system admin position why should they give you a bump in pay? Am I missing something here?

Experience, skill, good performance, and certifications can all be a reason to get paid more for a lateral move. That said, if it's truly the same job, they should just give you a raise. If it's not the same job, they should be paying more for it anyway.

Rwmidl, do you mind if I ask how much you make currently, or at least what range? You have a great set of high-level certifications and presumably experience and skill -- if you are being compensated accordingly, you may be nearing a cap that you would indeed need your MS to break.

rwmidl

I guess I should update this. Before the end of the year I applied for and accepted a senior sys. admin role within the same company I worked for. I was able to negotiate more money (not as high as I wanted but a decent little bump). So far so good. It is an "interesting" position to say the least. I won't get in to all of that here right now since I've only been on the project about a month. I'm not sure if this is something I'm going to stick around long for, but I'm looking at it as another stepping stone.

blargoe

Awesome!

rwmidl

blargoe wrote: »

Awesome!

Thanks. I'm going to try and remember to update this in a few months. I've only been on the project a month, and there are some very "interesting" quirks to it. As I said earlier, I need to give it a bit more time to see how things play out.