Bleek future for only High-School Grad?

johnnyarks

Hey, I'd be curious to hear how many of you guys that are currently working in IT and have no Degrees?

I'm finding the job market impossible to get into, I've been unemployed for 2+ yrs, My previous job was a mix of Security, NOC, admin, type duties... after looking for security jobs for about a yr, I couldn't afford to take the "$12/hr" jobs these companies were offering me, my rent alone was $1000/month...so then I tried Temp Admin work...nothing... now I'm trying my luck at the IT field...(I've only been looking for IT jobs for 2 months) fast forward 2yrs later and I'm living with my parents, rent free but I'm now 27yrs old, in debt and it's getting worst each passing month... I just finished applying to a position on Monster.com, they let you see how many other applicants applied and their experience and education level, it was for a 24/7 noc position in NJ, of the 24 applicants, I was the only one with a HS diploma, the Majority had a BA, or Masters... Do I have no chance against this crop of applicants, when a person with a Masters settles for $35-40k/yr, what the hell type job am I suppose to work? $20K wtf.... this seems so hard

How did you get your start...?

Mind_Sculptor

Degree helps out a lot, if I were you I definitely would go back to college.

johnnyarks

a lot easier said than done. I'm 27, and in debt, I need money asap, college is more debt, and say perfect case scenario, It would be 4yrs till I got my degree... I know for sure, I can get CCIE amongst other certs in that time frame (or faster) for much cheaper, School is not really an option for me until I have an income of sorts. Unemployment benefits have been exhausted since Jan...I need to work, I have even tried Bestbuy, Staples, radioshacks, even starbucks.

Armymanis

I would start looking at contract jobs. Got my first IT job installing computers onto the insides of desks and now I am being promoted to help desk and working weekends. Good luck Yes, I am going to school and working weekends now. If I can do it, so can you

YuckTheFankees

hang in there bud. At least you have some type of experience, hopefully that will help you land a job. I'm almost done with my degree and I have a couple certs...but no experience...so its hell trying to get a job. I feel the pain. Im stuck at a job I hate but it pays better then most so I stay here. I received an offer for a help desk gig making $10/an hour....that barely covers gas and food.

slinuxuzer

stay positive man, not everyone in the world can be a college grad, and it's always going to be that way, there will be plenty of jobs out there for skilled people. If your going to stay in networking, at least for the short term finish your CCNA, a lot of networking jobs want this, and when I say finish it I mean, learn, don't just do the minimum to pass the exam.

The idea is to go into a interview knowing more than what you needed to get a cert, sounds like you have spare time, so unplug the TV and get fanatical about CCNA or some other speacility.

And BTW, there are literally thousands of people with a degree on their resume that don't have it, the sad fact is almost no employer verifies this, so don't get down thinking your so far behind the curve,

JohnnyBiggles

Dude I feel your pain. I registered for my masters program earlier this year only to be victimized again by the school system - they required all these additional unnecessary classes before I even started the program so realistically, it would take at least 3-5 years and thousands of dollars to complete the masters. I realized this and thought the same thing you did.. I could probably be a CCIE by the time that happens and I'm sure it would be MUCH cheaper and more valuable anyway. I still have debts from my Bachelor's to pay.

I have a degree... 2 infact... but my experience is old now, I got the BBA after I got the experience and for some reason can't seem to break back into IT with any kind of respectable income (which is why I left IT, to get degrees/certs in the first place). Actually, I haven't really been searching long, as I suspended my job hunt months ago so I can get some certs to improve the modern-searchable resume and actually have some skills with something more specific. Instead of spending hours searching pointlessly, I could study instead. I was going to wait to get the full CCNA but just raising the money to take the tests (and actually passing them) is a challenge itself and spare cash killer. I resumed my search just recently without it, seeing how my situation seems to be getting worse each week that goes by. Hopefully something happens soon for us!

pham0329

It may not because you don't have a degree, but because you've been out of work for 2 years. I don't have a degree (still working on my AS), and have been relatively successful finding jobs, even in this economy. I've had 3 different jobs in the past 1 - 2 years (don't know if that's good or bad ), all paying over 55k. It may seems tough now, but there are plenty of jobs out there...just gotta keep applying.

andy4tech

Johnny i understand what you are going through,keep on looking and hit the icnd2 as mentioned above as soon as possible,you will surely get there.

JohnnyBiggles

pham0329 wrote: »

...I've had 3 different jobs in the past 1 - 2 years (don't know if that's good or bad ), all paying over 55k. It may seems tough now, but there are plenty of jobs out there...just gotta keep applying.

Where are you located??

NOC-Ninja

johnnyarks wrote: »

Hey, I'd be curious to hear how many of you guys that are currently working in IT and have no Degrees?

I'm finding the job market impossible to get into, I've been unemployed for 2+ yrs, My previous job was a mix of Security, NOC, admin, type duties... after looking for security jobs for about a yr, I couldn't afford to take the "$12/hr" jobs these companies were offering me, my rent alone was $1000/month...so then I tried Temp Admin work...nothing... now I'm trying my luck at the IT field...(I've only been looking for IT jobs for 2 months) fast forward 2yrs later and I'm living with my parents, rent free but I'm now 27yrs old, in debt and it's getting worst each passing month... I just finished applying to a position on Monster.com, they let you see how many other applicants applied and their experience and education level, it was for a 24/7 noc position in NJ, of the 24 applicants, I was the only one with a HS diploma, the Majority had a BA, or Masters... Do I have no chance against this crop of applicants, when a person with a Masters settles for $35-40k/yr, what the hell type job am I suppose to work? $20K wtf.... this seems so hard

How did you get your start...?

So you were out of job for 2 yrs? What were you doing for the 2 yrs that you were out of job?

If you are competing with guys that have BS or MS degree then its a no brainer that they will get hired first before you unless you have 5-10 years experience in your IT field.

docrice

Often in this industry it's about who you know and where you are which makes the difference for employment. Skills are definitely important, but being well-connected provides a significant advantage. While I've been able to land interviews and jobs in the past without a degree (technically a few years of college, but no official merit beyond a high school diploma), most of my luck has been through social / professional connections. If you know the right people and you work well with them, sometimes it's not about having the strongest technical skills. The right attitude and culture fit goes a long way.

I'll agree with pham0329 about your gap in employment. Two years is a red flag with a lot of employers today since they have this idea that if you haven't been actively employed, your abilities have deteriorated to the point where you're no longer in consideration. I think that's really unfair, but unfortunately that's how it is.

I would try to offer services (even for free) to charities, small non-profits, etc., just to put something on your resume as recent work history. Look into temp contract jobs as well. Put up a business card for your consulting services on a community bulletin board just to get some bites. Anything helps. Start a technical blog which shows off your knowledge and the kind of things you can contribute to an employer. HR departments and hiring managers these days may research an individual before calling him.

W Stewart

johnnyarks wrote: »

a lot easier said than done. I'm 27, and in debt, I need money asap, college is more debt, and say perfect case scenario, It would be 4yrs till I got my degree... I know for sure, I can get CCIE amongst other certs in that time frame (or faster) for much cheaper, School is not really an option for me until I have an income of sorts. Unemployment benefits have been exhausted since Jan...I need to work, I have even tried Bestbuy, Staples, radioshacks, even starbucks.

You're 27 and not making that much money so unless you already owe financial aid money you can get a grant and not build any debt from going to school. Believe me school can work wonders even though experience is king. I have a friend who just started doing the same entry level job I did and it's his first IT job aswell as mine but he's almost finished with his degree. He has multiple job offers for system admin positions in other states and I'm gonna have to work this job until I get a little school and experience in. You have a little bit of admin experience so you really just need to make sure your resume is on point and some certs relating to the skills you already have wouldn't hurt. You may even have to consider relocating but don't count school out or you could be doing yourself a disservice. try WGU or a community college at the very least. It's harder to get those high paying jobs with just high school and entry level certs.

johnnyarks

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

So you were out of job for 2 yrs? What were you doing for the 2 yrs that you were out of job?

If you are competing with guys that have BS or MS degree then its a no brainer that they will get hired first before you unless you have 5-10 years experience in your IT field.

1st yr - Looking for working in Security, similar to my previous job, but employers wanted me either to:
A. Work as a regular security guard, not as a NOC/SOC type position, or
B. Work at a NOC/SOC type position, but pay me at MAX "$12/hr"
...the security guard position were almost minimum wage, I had bills and $1000/month rent, I was making more money from unemployment checks then if I were to take those positions...fyi they are dead end jobs.

2nd yr - I quit looking for Security jobs then started looking at admin, desk work like Receptions/Temp type stuff, I signed up with 3 temp agencies but they never had work for me.... 1.7 yrs have passed at this point, I'm running out of cash fast, so I have to abandon my apt and move in with my Parents, I attended a 3 month boot camp for A+, N+, CCNA, that finished in feb 2011, since then I've self studied and obtained my N+, CCENT, and I'm sitting for ICND2 in 2.5 weeks...

johnnyarks

Armymanis wrote: »

I would start looking at contract jobs. Got my first IT job installing computers onto the insides of desks and now I am being promoted to help desk and working weekends. Good luck Yes, I am going to school and working weekends now. If I can do it, so can you

Well not really, my local schools only offer a limited number of IT classes, I'm currently in NJ, I'm like 99% sure I'm going to be working in Hoboken/NYC area, its just not realistic to get out of work in Manhattan say @5pm... and classes at my local school start at 6pm... the commute is 2hr on a good day... that is the closest school with a Networking program, Schools in NYC are expensive, DeVry is close, but its 65k for their B.S. programs... my financial aid doesn't cover that...and like I said I need to work, you don't want to be unable to work because your taking classes at the Hrs you would be working... and 99% of the jobs I'm applying for are NOC 24/7 rotating shift positions....its not as simple as ppl like to think it is.

...that being said I'm probably gonna be going the WGU route.

the_Grinch

I have two options you can try, though option 2 kinda depends on where you live in NJ. First, school districts. Go onto the websites of the various school districts around you and see if they are hiring techs. I worked part-time for two school districts, one for 9.70 an hour and the other ended up being 14.25. The second one gave me 25 hours a week (every week) and sick days. Both were no weekends and every school holiday off (great for studying and a crappy second job). The other option is Comcast. I worked on their helpdesk and there were people who were only high school grads and maybe knew how to turn a computer on. The pay was pretty good, but the hours were bad. You can also look at maybe be an install tech. Best part, free internet and tv (cheap phone service). I wouldn't worry about the kinda being fired, in NJ they can only say you worked there and from what dates. Good luck!

joneno

C'mon guys, this is baby sitting a grown man. Pls stop this before I go insane.

advanex1

I guess the real question is, why haven't you been applying to basically anywhere that you can handle? This not only provides you more than likely a job to get money as you say you need, it also buys you time to go to school, work on certs, and apply for positions you actually want.

To me it sounds like you're setting your own standards to high on what you think you deserve and you're not willing to work for less. The way I see it, if you're out of money, you should be working anywhere possible, going to school if possible, volunteering to get experience, and continuing to apply to places.

The above poster kind of makes a point. You should know this by now - if you need a job, go get one. It may not be THE one you want, but if NOC's aren't taking you, you have to try somewhere else.

What's the definition of insanity? I'm not saying don't try, but you need a better plan in the mean time.

phantasm

Hell. If it's that bad, go on down to a recruiter. The Army has 25N jobs and the chAir Force has some good commo jobs as well. Good skill set, clearance (provided you pass), and a guaranteed pay check.

The job market is still tough... you got to know people and have the right skills. Lastly, a CCIE in 4 yrs?! No. Not going to happen. I interviewed one of those guys lately... it didn't end well.

Keep working at it. It took me 7yrs to break into the field.

Blackout

No security background? Are there security qualifications that you have and don't list? I don't think that its a matter of people not hiring people without degrees as much as your trying to rock climb without any experience. Most serious security guys have certs to back them up whether they have the Sec+, CISSP, or SANS certs. Its like giving someone the keys to your lambo who doesn't have a license.
My suggestion if you want to go into the security field establish a cert path, I know there are plenty of government contractors who will hire junior security guys with just Security+.
Im not trying to be a dick here believe me, im just being realistic.


Having connections is good, being able to relocate is good as well. There are plenty of places to look, NMCI, SAIC, General Dynamics, have you been to usajobs.gov? Government types will train you if you can pass their cavity searches.

Turgon

johnnyarks wrote: »

Well not really, my local schools only offer a limited number of IT classes, I'm currently in NJ, I'm like 99% sure I'm going to be working in Hoboken/NYC area, its just not realistic to get out of work in Manhattan say @5pm... and classes at my local school start at 6pm... the commute is 2hr on a good day... that is the closest school with a Networking program, Schools in NYC are expensive, DeVry is close, but its 65k for their B.S. programs... my financial aid doesn't cover that...and like I said I need to work, you don't want to be unable to work because your taking classes at the Hrs you would be working... and 99% of the jobs I'm applying for are NOC 24/7 rotating shift positions....its not as simple as ppl like to think it is.

...that being said I'm probably gonna be going the WGU route.

We seem to be hearing a lot about the obstacles in your path but not much about how you will navigate them. You want a career in IT just like tens of millions of other people. Some will have excellent careers, some will have good ones, many will just muddle through and even more, may more will remain on a scrap heap which will get larger in the medium term. It's a game and you need to learn to play it well. You need to make yourself more employable.

You are 27 so still relatively young. You should work out a three year plan with the goal of being in a permanent job with prospects by the time you are thirty.

1. You must find some work, even part time, even voluntary, even unsocial hours. Work as hard as you can to obtain it. Try contract jobs. Contact many companies directly. Solutions providers of all sizes need mobile people who can install things. Get the yellow pages up.
2. Money is tight for you now, but I would advise that you seek out the most affordable way to kick start a path to a degree. You can complete this in your thirties once you have that job but look at your affordable options now.
3. Certification. You want the CCNA and should set yourself a target of hitting it by the summer of 2012.
4. Attitude. Develop a positive one. Doing non IT things that demonstrate initiative, a sense of community and leadership would be a good aspect to your CV. See if there are voluntary social groups you can assist in your locale.
5. Hands on. Get some. See point 1 where you could volunteer. Also invest in affordable means to build things at home.
6. Technical reading. That means books. Buy some and make reading a part of your daily routine.
7. Profile. Doing all the above raises it. Get it across on your CV. Talk to agents. Locate companies to approach and do so in a professional way.
8. Work ethic. Develop a strong one. People that have this come over well. It's what companies want to hire.

Everyone

Turgon wrote: »

We seem to be hearing a lot about the obstacles in your path but not much about how you will navigate them.

^^ This is it right here. I'm 29, so only 2 years older than you. I have 12 years in IT now, and a technically never even graduated high school. I don't have a GED either. I have 72 credit hours towards an Associates, but no degree. I have a very well established career, and my skills are in demand. I'm in the $80k-$90k/yr bracket, and I do it all from home.

Do you think I did any of that sitting around complaining about obstacles? Hell no! I established dominance and blazed my own path. If I sat around thinking about how much everything sucks because I barely make enough to pay my bills, I'd still be living with my parents and working at Best Buy for $9.75/hr.

There is no settling if you want to get ahead. No offense to anyone here with a Masters making only "$35k-$40k/yr" as you put it, but if you're at that level and settle for that... you're doing it wrong. I made that much with no degree at 22 years old while I was ENLISTED in the Air Force. If I had a Masters now on top of my 12 years of experience, I'd be pulling in $150k/yr+, and still looking for that next step to go higher.

Someone already mentioned the Military option. Look into the Air Force's 3D0X3 "Cyber Surety" career field. Say goodbye to your rent, have money money for your other bills, come out in 4 years making double what you made while you were in. That is if you can handle getting off your ass and doing your best every day instead of sitting around feeling sorry for yourself.

You've got plenty of choices out there, but you'll never go anywhere until you make one!

powerfool

It's better than being 30 with no college.

Seriously, I worked without a degree until I was 27 (that is when I graduated). It wasn't easy until I started going to school. I had two kids and one on the way when I was 23 and decided I needed to do something about it. Knock it out. You don't have to wait until you have completed your degree to start reaping the rewards... once you have some progress and you put that on your resume, people will start taking you seriously because of two reasons: 1) you already have experience, and 2) you are taking yourself seriously. Having self-respect and self-worth are qualities that an independent and self-motivated employee should have, and that is what employers want.

While I would love to jump on the WGU bandwagon entirely, I wonder if doing your entire undergrad through them would be beneficial... I just have nothing to compare with it. Most of the folks that I have seen have transferred in with tons of credits (usually an associates' degree) and several of the certifications. Those folks are primed to complete that degree in a semester or two. On that front, I would advise getting advice from someone that has an entire undergrad degree through WGU. My advice would be to go to a local community college and knock out some courses first, even if some or most of the courses are online.

The problem I have with WGU is exactly what is appealing about it... all of the certifications. Someone could very easily say that it is a lesser degree because plenty of folks have those certifications and a "full" degree on top. I just don't think I would feel comfortable having my entire undergrad degree being completed through them... that doesn't make me right or make my advice applicable to others. I also wonder if these "quick" degrees are going to further devalue the BS and truly make it the new high school diploma... which won't impact me so much, as I am working on my MS. I think that if one does go the WGU route for undergrad, I would be looking at a different school for any graduate school work... I would do that regardless... having diversity in your schools stands out on paper. But if you choose a reputable and rigorous grad school, then you can overcome any potential stigma. This is just me thinking onto the keyboard. I am not sure how coherent it is... but I am going to press "Submit Reply" anyhow.

Turgon

powerfool wrote: »

It's better than being 30 with no college.

Seriously, I worked without a degree until I was 27 (that is when I graduated). It wasn't easy until I started going to school. I had two kids and one on the way when I was 23 and decided I needed to do something about it. Knock it out. You don't have to wait until you have completed your degree to start reaping the rewards... once you have some progress and you put that on your resume, people will start taking you seriously because of two reasons: 1) you already have experience, and 2) you are taking yourself seriously. Having self-respect and self-worth are qualities that an independent and self-motivated employee should have, and that is what employers want.

While I would love to jump on the WGU bandwagon entirely, I wonder if doing your entire undergrad through them would be beneficial... I just have nothing to compare with it. Most of the folks that I have seen have transferred in with tons of credits (usually an associates' degree) and several of the certifications. Those folks are primed to complete that degree in a semester or two. On that front, I would advise getting advice from someone that has an entire undergrad degree through WGU. My advice would be to go to a local community college and knock out some courses first, even if some or most of the courses are online.

The problem I have with WGU is exactly what is appealing about it... all of the certifications. Someone could very easily say that it is a lesser degree because plenty of folks have those certifications and a "full" degree on top. I just don't think I would feel comfortable having my entire undergrad degree being completed through them... that doesn't make me right or make my advice applicable to others. I also wonder if these "quick" degrees are going to further devalue the BS and truly make it the new high school diploma... which won't impact me so much, as I am working on my MS. I think that if one does go the WGU route for undergrad, I would be looking at a different school for any graduate school work... I would do that regardless... having diversity in your schools stands out on paper. But if you choose a reputable and rigorous grad school, then you can overcome any potential stigma. This is just me thinking onto the keyboard. I am not sure how coherent it is... but I am going to press "Submit Reply" anyhow.

A very coherent reply I thought. I understand the concerns about WGU and share them but I caveat that by saying I have the advantage of having completed my Masters degree 16 years ago.

People go that route for all sorts of understandable reasons and I think having the degree should pay off simply by virtue of having one. But yes, the idea of A+ and all the other certs providing a way for someone to spin out with a degree inside one year isn't a good look in the eyes of many and everyone is doing it. There is other aspect of denying yourself a proper chance of being 'educated' with fasttrack degree programs.

But as I say, it seems that isn't an imperative for a lot of people. Getting an affordable degree as fast as possible to tick a box is in many cases. Understandable imperatives if it really will put more food on the table. Most people on this site are not high rollers with stellar grades at High School, products of expensive schools, or holders of glittering degrees from Ivy League Universities. If they were, and they worked in IT, they would not have time to post here.

W Stewart

johnnyarks wrote: »

Well not really, my local schools only offer a limited number of IT classes, I'm currently in NJ, I'm like 99% sure I'm going to be working in Hoboken/NYC area, its just not realistic to get out of work in Manhattan say @5pm... and classes at my local school start at 6pm... the commute is 2hr on a good day... that is the closest school with a Networking program, Schools in NYC are expensive, DeVry is close, but its 65k for their B.S. programs... my financial aid doesn't cover that...and like I said I need to work, you don't want to be unable to work because your taking classes at the Hrs you would be working... and 99% of the jobs I'm applying for are NOC 24/7 rotating shift positions....its not as simple as ppl like to think it is.

...that being said I'm probably gonna be going the WGU route.

To be honest if money is running out like you say then you need to take whatever job you can get because there's really no fast way to make money otherwise everyone would be doing it. You can't really afford to be out of work in IT. It pretty much takes you out of the game but the good thing is you don't have to spend as much time at entry level to get back to where you were. Take the low paying NOC jobs and keep your prior experience on your resume. Stay open to the possibility of relocating and someone will come calling eventually. I understand your situation with school as I've had some difficulty making school work myself. I'm also going the WGU rout and the good thing is you can get the certs and the degrees at the same time. You have experience but you need more recent experience so unless you wanna be treated like a fresh college grad with no experience you need to take some sort of IT related job for now. Maybe even for just a couple of months. Keep your head up and don't make excuses. Just be determined.

keenon

I started in IT after the dot.com bust with no degree, no certification and no experience. Talk about all the troubles in 1.

RockinRobin

Everyone wrote: »

^^ This is it right here. I'm 29, so only 2 years older than you. I have 12 years in IT now, and a technically never even graduated high school. I don't have a GED either. I have 72 credit hours towards an Associates, but no degree. I have a very well established career, and my skills are in demand. I'm in the $80k-$90k/yr bracket, and I do it all from home.

Do you think I did any of that sitting around complaining about obstacles? Hell no! I established dominance and blazed my own path. If I sat around thinking about how much everything sucks because I barely make enough to pay my bills, I'd still be living with my parents and working at Best Buy for $9.75/hr.

There is no settling if you want to get ahead. No offense to anyone here with a Masters making only "$35k-$40k/yr" as you put it, but if you're at that level and settle for that... you're doing it wrong. I made that much with no degree at 22 years old while I was ENLISTED in the Air Force. If I had a Masters now on top of my 12 years of experience, I'd be pulling in $150k/yr+, and still looking for that next step to go higher.

Someone already mentioned the Military option. Look into the Air Force's 3D0X3 "Cyber Surety" career field. Say goodbye to your rent, have money money for your other bills, come out in 4 years making double what you made while you were in. That is if you can handle getting off your ass and doing your best every day instead of sitting around feeling sorry for yourself.

You've got plenty of choices out there, but you'll never go anywhere until you make one!

Awesome post!!!

DPG

johnnyarks wrote: »

...I couldn't afford to take the "$12/hr" jobs these companies were offering me...

I hear this BS all the time. How can someone not afford to work? That $12/hr job could easily turn into a $25/hr job if you worked hard enough.

networker050184

Get a job, any job. Do you really think the longer you sit on unemployment the more attractive you will become to potential employers?

keenon

networker050184 wrote: »

Get a job, any job. Do you really think the longer you sit on unemployment the more attractive you will become to potential employers?

agreed. your going to have to earn your way up. there's nothing else to it. so take the job and be the best at it.

Mrock4

To echo what everyone else said, do something proactive about your situation.

Ever consider- taking a NOC job (that appears 'lesser' to you) might give you time to study when things are slow..at work! Or, working in a NOC, you prove yourself- they might consider you for a higher level position from within. I've seen it happen more than once.

Either way, good luck.