Cisco's CCIE is no longer the biggest cash cow of IT certification

auos

Hi guys,
Check this site

**Cisco's CCIE is no longer the biggest cash cow of IT certification | TechRepublic

Turgon

auos wrote: »

Hi guys,
Check this site

**Cisco's CCIE is no longer the biggest cash cow of IT certification | TechRepublic

I dont think it's overally important. For over 10 years people have been hung up about the ROI on a certification. It's not obtaining a certification that determines your bottom line, it's partly the journey you take to get it, but mostly how you leverage your certification knowledge in real implementations and situations in the field over the years that counts. You get paid more or less by how well you have proven you can handle pressurised and complex environments and commercial/technological demands and conflicts. Not all CCNAs or CCIEs for that matter are equal beyond the testing centre.

Some of the comments are amusing though. Particularly how the comparison of CISSP and CCIE has set a few off. I guess a few CCIE candidates were having a bad day with tunnelling scenarios..

..................................

'I would like you all to print a retraction, comparing the CISSP to the CCIE is like comparing a Ph.D. to a Highschool Graduate, give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Serously you need to recant this article I am having way to much fun laughing at it. TP Reply Flag Favorite
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Complete JOKE
dauda2 11th Feb 2010 Absolutely brilliant response. There is no comparison at all between the CISSP and a CCIE. Some of these article writers just come on this forum and spout garbage just to feel relevant in a discussion. What utter nonsense MAKING SUCH A COMPARISON!!!
The writer of this comparison needs to retract this and go back into the field and do some more research and learning.
Don't bother to repost anything in praise of CCIE for correction. It's not needed. Just go out and talk to people in the field and get a REAL perspective of technology certs.

rakem

pfft.. That article says ITIL is more valued than CCIE.
ITIL is a load of rubbish really, anyone can pass that crap without much work.

I still value the CCIE because i know how much work it takes to pass. Any employer with half a brain would know that as well.

erpadmin

Wow, I never thought I would post in this part of the forum...ever...but I know there will be someone who will want to take this article as gospel...so for that guy (or gal), this one is for you....

I had posted some time back about how TechRepublic has pretty much become useless. Any entity that would state through useless salary reports how someone with an A+ can make $90k without a reason why is irresponsible. However, I had to read this article to validate for me personally why TR is irresponsible and this three year old article proves it. I can see a bunch of folks who can't spell IT now wanting to trash CCIE in favor of Project Management certs like PMP or ITIL, even though ITIL is more about Service Management than anything else.

I don't know if ITIL is a load of rubbish, but I do see that cert in demand here in the States. But comparing ITIL/PMP to a CCIE is a real apples to oranges comparison. I am personally going to go for PMP over CCIE at some point in my career but nowhere near for the reasons this article aludes to. The short answer is that's where my career path took me...I don't configure switches and routers (anymore) and while I'm more than capable of doing so, I had other plans in IT.

Let's pretend for a moment that this article is based on reality. Do you really think that a PMP that doesn't have relevant experience is going to see $100k or more? Yes, you need PM experience and education in order to even see a PMP exam, but if you were working on small projects at a small shop making $50k-$70k, you're not going to double your salary after seeing a PMP cert.

But I'm writing this more as a defense of CCIE candidates. Someone who is a CCIE can't **** their way to becoming one. It is work...work that a lot of folks do everyday to prepare for that cert. A CCIE with legitimate network experience in a corporate/government/other entity that wasn't your home lab is going to bring home $100k or more. A PMP is usually going to have the experience (of completing successful projects) and education (many times a Masters/MBA) that will warrant a six figure salary as well.

Anyone reading this thread thinking they found the shortcut to IT riches, just like the good ol' 90s, is deluding themselves and this article does a disservice to its readers...which is why I stopped reading TR a long, long time ago.

networker050184

ITIL V2 Foundations - $95,415

ITIL V3 Master - $86,600

I don't know much about ITIL, but that seems kind of off to me.

Not to mention this article is over three years old which is an eternity in the world of technology.

down77

As someone who has a background in ITIL v2/v3 I can say that having the certification alone will not yield those results, nor anything close to it! The last organization I worked required all IT staff to become ITIL v3 Foundation certified. This means everyone from the $15/hr help desk to the CIO! If you start to average in those numbers you would see the High $80k - low $90k figure that they reported drop drastically.

Chances are the individuals who responded to the survey had a number of credentials and TR selectively chose which ones to highlight. Most CCIE credential holders I personally know have a number of certifications and a few of them have ITIL as well. I can guarantee you its not the ITIL work that earns them their paycheck.

On the Project Management side I see postings in my area for PMs with a PMP for 50-70k, and Senior PMs for 70-85k. A good PM is a valuable asset but unfortunately finding a competent one is getting harder and harder today. Just like the ITIL certification, having your CAPM or PMP is not a magic solution to higher salary.

QHalo

Yeah, there is a distinct difference between passing an ITIL exam and actually being able to produce on the knowledge you learned from it. Organizations are forcing their people to get certified in it, which means just doing enough to pass the exam to probably 90% of them. I doubt that any of them retained much of what they learned unless they are architecting process changes according to it.

Turgon

erpadmin wrote: »

Someone who is a CCIE can't **** their way to becoming one.

Thousands of CCIE's cheated their way to become a CCIE. First the written which most passers **** to get using TK, then the lab exam itself. **** for the lab exam were widely available on overseas websites. This is why v3 was changed to v4. I feel sorry for the ligit v3 people because it was compromised but to be honest every lab exam gets compromised. Once the v4 pass marks are in the hundreds every month then you will know the quality has gone. China is a problem. The numbers will soon surpass US CCIE numbers and many lab leaks came from overseas testing centers. In the 10 years I have been on groupstudy, with members from all over the world contributing where their first language was not English, including the Yemen, I have never seen a single answer to a thread come from a Chinese CCIE candidate on groupstudy.

swild

Ummm, guys....

March 7, 2008.

Turgon

swild wrote: »

Ummm, guys....

March 7, 2008.

Exactly. Its old but its a topic for debate! Everything they said back then that was good is less good now..everything they said back then that sucked, sucks more now!

spiderjericho

The article is rubbish and it is part of the reason why there is a kindle lit on cert chasers, cheaters and fools gold chasers in the IT industry. And Turgon...the latest version of the lab (which was just recently updated) is known and leaked. The IOU that was leaked around the internet months ago is supposed to be a good indicator of the troubleshooting section of the R&S. I want to one day claim the title of CCIE (probably because of the legend and reverance), but Cisco is also the architect of their problems.

S3CUR3N3TW0RK

Turgon wrote: »

Thousands of CCIE's cheated their way to become a CCIE. First the written which most passers **** to get using TK, then the lab exam itself. **** for the lab exam were widely available on overseas websites. This is why v3 was changed to v4. I feel sorry for the ligit v3 people because it was compromised but to be honest every lab exam gets compromised. Once the v4 pass marks are in the hundreds every month then you will know the quality has gone. China is a problem. The numbers will soon surpass US CCIE numbers and many lab leaks came from overseas testing centers. In the 10 years I have been on groupstudy, with members from all over the world contributing where their first language was not English, including the Yemen, I have never seen a single answer to a thread come from a Chinese CCIE candidate on groupstudy.

I don't understand, what is Cisco doing to rectify this problem? Why can't they tighten the security procedures at ALL authorized testing centers. This doesn't make sense, how are these testers getting copies of lab documents, etc.? Are they just dumping from memory? That would seem rather difficult, especially if the candidate is not a serious engineer. If not, how are they copying the testing manuals? If it's via camera's, Cisco needs to have proctors rectify this problem, in addition to administrating better security procedures for even entering the testing center. Aren't the lab exams proctored at a Cisco site anyways? I wouldn't imagine it should be that hard to administer security procedures for the lab since they are at Cisco's own sites, unlike the written exams.

This is really rather annoying, because at the end of the day all this does is slowly devalue the credentials of the thousands of CCIE's that did not ****.

JDMurray

S3CUR3N3TW0RK wrote: »

Why can't they tighten the security procedures at ALL authorized testing centers.

Cisco can, but it probably costs more money than the organization wants to spend on customer education (of which certifications are a part). Most product vendors do not want to spend a lot of revenue on their certification program, so things get sloppy, exam information is not treated with the utmost security, and information gets leaked. The vendor then must decide to spend the money necessary to save the reputation of their cert program or just let it fall into disrepute.

The (ISC)2 is currently putting its CISSP, SSCP, and CSSLP certifications online in testing centers around the world, and they are paying to have these exams available in only the premium testing centers where the SLA will guarantee the necessary security to keep the exam information from being copied from disk, photographed on the screen, etc. It take money to ensure integrity.

Turgon

spiderjericho wrote: »

The article is rubbish and it is part of the reason why there is a kindle lit on cert chasers, cheaters and fools gold chasers in the IT industry. And Turgon...the latest version of the lab (which was just recently updated) is known and leaked. The IOU that was leaked around the internet months ago is supposed to be a good indicator of the troubleshooting section of the R&S. I want to one day claim the title of CCIE (probably because of the legend and reverance), but Cisco is also the architect of their problems.

More than likely but what can you do? Given the time sacrifice to get the qualification and the personal expense it's understandable that people will search for easy options.

spiderjericho

It all comes down to money. The money involved in the Cisco Certification program (they must get some sort of revenue from their certification and book program). And then it also comes down to the money of updating their tests and maintaining their integrity. It takes a lot of time and money to develop test questions, etc. I recently worked at a Cisco Network Academy. And we had an issue with a few students in a class, as it just appeared like they didn't know the CCNA material but were getting 90s, 100s, etc. It really irked me and I managed to convince my supervisor and instructor partner to develop written and lab exams. But the higher ups didn't want to invest the time to do it and relayed to us that there was nothing wrong with test preparation. Anyhoot, the way these things leak out is unscrupulous test centers or exam takers. With the CCIE lab, you just manage to gather enough information about the configuration section, the topologies and troubleshooting. When the new revision was released, I saw a lot of pathetic short cut takers inquire about the topology, solutions, etc. For me, I want the CCIE to validate my networking experience and to experience the journey of obtaining the CCIE.

Turgon

spiderjericho wrote: »

It all comes down to money. The money involved in the Cisco Certification program (they must get some sort of revenue from their certification and book program). And then it also comes down to the money of updating their tests and maintaining their integrity. It takes a lot of time and money to develop test questions, etc. I recently worked at a Cisco Network Academy. And we had an issue with a few students in a class, as it just appeared like they didn't know the CCNA material but were getting 90s, 100s, etc. It really irked me and I managed to convince my supervisor and instructor partner to develop written and lab exams. But the higher ups didn't want to invest the time to do it and relayed to us that there was nothing wrong with test preparation. Anyhoot, the way these things leak out is unscrupulous test centers or exam takers. With the CCIE lab, you just manage to gather enough information about the configuration section, the topologies and troubleshooting. When the new revision was released, I saw a lot of pathetic short cut takers inquire about the topology, solutions, etc. For me, I want the CCIE to validate my networking experience and to experience the journey of obtaining the CCIE.

The Cisco exams were compromised years ago. Everyone knows this. Many CCIE's use TK to recerify. It is what it is. The good news is that the field has learned that certification has its limits, but it also has value if the certification is *well learned*. Therefore, if you want to hawk your CCIE to a company who simply wants to tick a box and get gold partner status, thats fine if you live in a developing country where wages are cheap, but less so in the West because there are cheaper alternatives. On the other hand if you want to be a practitioning CCIE in a complex network world where you need to design and support complex infrastructure..then you have to have the goods. And that can be someone anywhere in the world so long as they really are as good as that number says they should be.

S3CUR3N3TW0RK

JDMurray wrote: »

Cisco can, but it probably costs more money than the organization wants to spend on customer education (of which certifications are a part). Most product vendors do not want to spend a lot of revenue on their certification program, so things get sloppy, exam information is not treated with the utmost security, and information gets leaked. The vendor then must decide to spend the money necessary to save the reputation of their cert program or just let it fall into disrepute.

I can see that point, however, in Cisco's case, I believe the certification process has proved to be a very very lucrative one. Not only from the direct expenses received for administrating the actual tests, and the revenue generated via Cisco Press, but also, and more so, from the market share it's acquired due to cisco certified individuals choosing to design networks with Cisco equipment - often in the face of higher equipment costs as well.

Although it's not as hard a justification today, as it was 15 years ago, I can't tell you the number of times I found myself justifying Cisco products in our LAN as opposed to Nortel products that were often priced for nearly half the amount. Had I not been Cisco certified, or more comfortable with Cisco equipment, or actively looking to enhance my experiences with cisco equipment as a result of their certifications, I may have just pushed for the Nortel equipment, or not cared either way and therefore yielded to the lower cost Nortel Accelar and Baystack product lines.

Cisco's increasing market share in the LAN/WAN, especially LAN, environment in the mid-to-late 90's was largely due to it's increasing popularity with network administrators and engineers. Admins and Engineers that were either a) certified or b) looking to get certified to secure a higher income, were all pushing for cisco equipment. I can't tell you how many times I had spoke with engineers that were ecstatic about getting rid of another vendor's perfectly sound equipment to migrate over to Cisco. I was actually hired for several LAN redesigns in which the client insisted on getting rid of a perfectly sound Nortel Accelar Layer 3 / Baystack 450 Layer 2 switched solution for a Cisco Cat 6500 / 2924 solution? It made no sense to me other than their internal engineers wanted Cisco.

I personally feel that it would be a mistake for Cisco to devalue their certifications by letting go of the integrity of the process. Once the certifications begin to lose their credibility, future engineers might not see the value associated with obtaining them, and future companies will begin to better compete in the market share. Especially with engineers that have obtained the majority of their initial experience on the other companies gear.

Turgon

S3CUR3N3TW0RK wrote: »

I can see that point, however, in Cisco's case, I believe the certification process has proved to be a very very lucrative one. Not only from the direct expenses received for administrating the actual tests, and the revenue generated via Cisco Press, but also, and more so, from the market share it's acquired due to cisco certified individuals choosing to design networks with Cisco equipment - often in the face of higher equipment costs as well.

Although it's not as hard a justification today, as it was 15 years ago, I can't tell you the number of times I found myself justifying Cisco products in our LAN as opposed to Nortel products that were often priced for nearly half the amount. Had I not been Cisco certified, or more comfortable with Cisco equipment, or actively looking to enhance my experiences with cisco equipment as a result of their certifications, I may have just pushed for the Nortel equipment, or not cared either way and therefore yielded to the lower cost Nortel Accelar and Baystack product lines.

Cisco's increasing market share in the LAN/WAN, especially LAN, environment in the mid-to-late 90's was largely due to it's increasing popularity with network administrators and engineers. Admins and Engineers that were either a) certified or b) looking to get certified to secure a higher income, were all pushing for cisco equipment. I can't tell you how many times I had spoke with engineers that were ecstatic about getting rid of another vendor's perfectly sound equipment to migrate over to Cisco. I was actually hired for several LAN redesigns in which the client insisted on getting rid of a perfectly sound Nortel Accelar Layer 3 / Baystack 450 Layer 2 switched solution for a Cisco Cat 6500 / 2924 solution? It made no sense to me other than their internal engineers wanted Cisco.

I personally feel that it would be a mistake for Cisco to devalue their certifications by letting go of the integrity of the process. Once the certifications begin to lose their credibility, future engineers might not see the value associated with obtaining them, and future companies will begin to better compete in the market share. Especially with engineers that have obtained the majority of their initial experience on the other companies gear.

Most companies are now looking at standards based Vendor agnostic solutions for networking. Cisco is in decline. I was at Cisco UK headquarters this year for a proof of concept evaluation. Great complex, flags flying, relatively empty car park, no buzz.

Cisco have gained all they can from the cert crunch. They were dynamic to get market share by offering deals on equipment to Universities so that students came out and recommended Cisco. Novell were the same in the nineties. Regardless, Cisco certifications are still the *best* out there for network specialists as the footprint of available materials for students is very wide. Cisco are losing on MPLS core, Wireless, Storage.

S3CUR3N3TW0RK

Turgon,

Working in the private sector for many years, I too thought that Cisco had gained all they can from the cert crunch, and for the most part they probably have. But recently over the past 4 years or so the US Government has been funneling a LOT of money into infrastructure and security projects across the entire country for Government entities including Homeland Security and DoD agencies, etc. These projects are expected to not only expand, but be well funded for at least another 10+ years. Being in the Washington DC area, where I used to see 9 private sector jobs for every 1 federal government job, I am now seeing 9 federal government jobs for every 1 private. The surprising thing is that with ALL of these jobs, of which there is plenty, they all require candidates to be certified? It's a government requirement that, regardless of how much experience you have, you MUST be certified to work on government systems. So therefore, all network engineering / infrastructure jobs require cisco certification to the level of the position you are applying for. Juniper, or other vendor certifications that may be equivalent to a Cisco certification will not suffice. You just won't get the job if you don't have the cert.

I myself, a version 1 CCNP, who never saw the advantage of furthering my certifications 10 years ago, since I was largely getting hired based on my work experiences - and not certifications, am now in the position to have to re-certify so that I can take advantage of some of the government contracts available as an independent consultant. This requirement will ensure that government systems and infrastructures will largely remain loyal to Cisco, so trust me, Cisco is still doing well as a result of their Career Certifications.

Zartanasaurus

MCSE 2000 is 19th?

Daniel333

I very much have benefited from the cert paths vendors have created. But never once would have called any cert a cash cow. Even doctors know their degree isn't an golden ticket to wealth. It's just a check mark on the way that might catch someone's attention on the way.

spiderjericho

I agree to an extent with Turgon, as Juniper and HP are gaining network equipment marketshare (look at HP, ready to jettison it's PC business to focus on network equipment, service contracts and software). I think their certifications will gain some traction but never to the level of Cisco. And as government employee, most of our network infrastructure equipment is Cisco (including UCM). But I can see smaller shops going with cheaper alternatives to save $$$. And it looks like the cheaters are upset, as Cisco just revised the CCIE lab AGAIN in a month. And I don't see why a CCIE wouldn't read whatever the latest CCIE version certificate kit to keep up with new practices, innovations/technologies and topic rehashing. It's not like you'll have to take the lab again. And with the 2 year recert, a lot of it will be fresh in your mind. Though...I can see the other train of thought.

S3CUR3N3TW0RK

Daniel333 wrote: »

I very much have benefited from the cert paths vendors have created. But never once would have called any cert a cash cow. Even doctors know their degree isn't an golden ticket to wealth. It's just a check mark on the way that might catch someone's attention on the way.

Hey Daniel, I am not trying to dispute what you are saying, but I wouldn't compare an MD to a cert. The CCIE has nothing on medical school, trust me, I went to medical school and for doctors that come out the other end and specialize i.e., radiology, opthalmology, orthopedic surgery, etc. they come out of residency making 300K+ and can get up to the 700K+ range within 5-10 years if in group practice. The ortho surgeons cap at like 1.3 mil a year. Additionally, unlike the tech fields where your either worrying about your contract ending or what the state of the economy is like, a medical doctor's position is secure. I don't know many doctor's that are worried about job security.

S3CUR3N3TW0RK

spiderjericho wrote: »

And it looks like the cheaters are upset, as Cisco just revised the CCIE lab AGAIN in a month.

So by this, can we take it to mean that cisco is trying to combat the effects of cheaters by revising there exams? If so, then maybe they will look into securing their testing centers, at least for the lab, as I would imagine it would be quite a task to review and revise their lab examinations month to month, especially since they have to ensure the difficulty level stays consistent with prior examinations. I am glad to hear that cisco is recognizing this and attempting to do something about it, because it would really suck if we all worked so hard to get CCIE certified to find that the market is saturated with incompetent CCIE's bringing down the marketability of the cert.

JDMurray

In a related podcast, Packet Pushers has a very recent episode featuring Natalie Timms, CCIE Security Program/Product Manager for Cisco, who is interviewed about the CCIE Security track.

Show 67 – CCIE Security Track Update With Natalie Timms, Program Manager

spiderjericho

I'm not sure why they keep revising the lab, but I would suspect one of the benefits is to dissuade cheating. Apparently there are a few vendors out there (not INE, Narbrik, etc) that specialize in selling the labs. And even if they secured the testing centers, what would stop say a company from sending in say a reconnaissance team to gather info about the test. You handle the topology. You handle the configuration section. You handle the troubleshooting. And imagine if they were in different continents (India and China probably has a lot of unscrupulous cert takers, though Americans are probably just as guilty). I love Packet Pushers, but I think they should have followed the discussion with the CCIE Security Project manager by having a discussion. The R&S CCIE seems to be the most obtainable since it only requires routers and switches vice IPS, ASA, etc. Ethan has expressed his interest in possibly pursuing the cert. I'm glad Cisco recognizes that there are China Tom practitioners out there who don't care about knowing the material. And a CCIE is not really comparable to a medical doctor, especially an expert in a field. Medicine is always going to be in demand.

Bl8ckr0uter

JDMurray wrote: »

In a related podcast, Packet Pushers has a very recent episode featuring Natalie Timms, CCIE Security Program/Product Manager for Cisco, who is interviewed about the CCIE Security track.

Show 67 – CCIE Security Track Update With Natalie Timms, Program Manager

Just happened to listen to that today. Now I am a little worried because they could be changing within a year (which is right when I am looking to crack it). But I'll worry about that in March or so.

Ahriakin

Ah, TechRepublic's salary survey...always worth a chuckle. Completely inaccurate and useless.