CNN Article "Why does college cost so much?", with WGU as case study

forestgiant

There's an article on CNN today where a former college dean talks about the rising costs across America's colleges and universities.

If you'll note, he said, "If information and incentives are provided, innovation will come. Already, we know several online and other innovations can work to deliver high-quality education services at potentially lower prices. Duncan highlighted Western Governor's University, a nonprofit online institution, as one such example."

Duncan here refers to US Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan

WGU should definitely use this PR opportunity.

MrRyte

I say let's start by taking a closer look at college athetics. When the head coach of one of the college sports team makes more in one year than the entire faculty of other departments then something is SERIOUSLY wrong.

erpadmin

Here's another article in the same vein:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/education/obama-meets-with-college-leaders-on-rising-costs.html

“If we’re going to address the 37 million adults with some college and no degree, we can’t just tweak the existing model,” said Robert W. Mendenhall of Western Governors University, an online nonprofit university. “Mostly in higher education, technology is an add-on cost that doesn’t change the model at all. We need to fundamentally change the faculty role, and use technology to do the teaching.”

Readout of the President's Meeting with College Presidents | The White House

Mendenhall is doing a great job with WGU. This is one college president that actually deserves his millions. The staff (mentors) even seem to like him. Partaking in roundtable discussions with the President (whatever your political leanings are) says a lot!

tpatt100

MrRyte wrote: »

I say let's start by taking a closer look at college athetics. When the head coach of one of the college sports team makes more in one year than the entire faculty of other departments then something is SERIOUSLY wrong.

Yeah but that's like blaming CEO's for making millions when even if they didn't millions spread out over thousands of employees will not do much. I thought sports was a big money maker for colleges. I think part of the problem is "some" colleges and universities become corporations and forget they are teaching institutions. I see colleges reinventing themselves in the future to become more "back to basics" in order to save costs and become competitive. Not all students want the big "college life" and all the stuff that goes with it and want to do more lab/class/learning.

I don't see WGU's model though as a fair comparison referring to the OP because WGU is more "teach yourself" with very little classroom interraction which is where I remember learning more and becoming excited with learning due to the interraction.

forestgiant

tpatt100 wrote: »

I don't see WGU's model though as a fair comparison referring to the OP because WGU is more "teach yourself" with very little classroom interraction which is where I remember learning more and becoming excited with learning due to the interraction.

If you read the NY Times article, WGU's president is quoted:

If we’re going to address the 37 million adults with some college and no degree, we can’t just tweak the existing model

Now, if you're in any kind of business, profit or non-profit, with that kind of clearly identified, potentially urgent need, and customers (i.e. students), wouldn't you say WGU is on to something?

Of those 37 millions, whether they are 1% or 99% away from graduation, these are people who have been exposed to the classroom environment and for whatever reasons could not or decided not to finish. Perhaps no one will ever know for sure if "learning due to interraction" truly excite those folks, that's why there's the self-learning route. Remember that some of the brightest minds known to man were more self taught, e.g. Michaelangelo, Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, many others.

I'm saying that we need an alternative environment where self tinkerers have a certain support and framework, but not the whole kiss-ya-professor's-butt-do-this-quiz-get-a-passing-grade shebang factory that's also known as modern day colleges.

Which is why I think the debate over inclass vs online is silly. Why can't you have both? Why bother wasting time, keystrokes, and a whole lotsa bits and bytes over apples and oranges. I've eaten both, and thank you very much, they're both quite tasty. Don't make me choose my fruits.

tpatt100

Those self learners went on and created their own opportunities though. If a person failed to thrive in a traditional college environment then maybe they are not suited for college. I think society got so hung up on "college degrees" that some people think society needs to change college to accomadate them rather the other way around. Already we are seeing WGU "dumbing down" the degree program because they are seeing people who cannot complete the certs rather than address why people cannot complete the certs, which is probably due to the lax admissions process.

I only have another term left but already WGU has removed content because "a lot of their paying customers can't hang with the program". If millions of Americans have some college but no degree then maybe its the person and not the institutions that is the problem. Colleges can expand their night class offerings but college is not for everyone. It's sold as a ticket to riches and opportunities but no its not for everyone. Primary reason is college is optional and when something is optional people will quit.
How are people who cannot learn through interraction going to succeed in the work environment? Already I run into enough IT people who lack basic social skills that make project implementation almost impossible because IT careers can sometimes appeal to those who are stubborn in their ways.

lsud00d

It doesn't cost anything if you get scholarships and grants

jmasterj206

tpatt100 wrote: »

. Already we are seeing WGU "dumbing down" the degree program because they are seeing people who cannot complete the certs rather than address why people cannot complete the certs, which is probably due to the lax admissions process.

This probably has more to do with Microsoft making their test nearly impossible even for seasoned IT veterans. Simply look at the amount of people here that have had trouble with the 70-642 and 643 that have been in the field for some time. I understand your thinking on dumbing down, but it probably has more to do with getting the curriculum in line with traditional schools.

tpatt100

jmasterj206 wrote: »

This probably has more to do with Microsoft making their test nearly impossible even for seasoned IT veterans. Simply look at the amount of people here that have had trouble with the 70-642 and 643 that have been in the field for some time. I understand your thinking on dumbing down, but it probably has more to do with getting the curriculum in line with traditional schools.

They did it with other tests, removed half of the CCNA, got rid of the CWSP test, and also the Disaster Recovery one from EC-Council. The tests that get poor feedback/performance from students.

jmasterj206

I understand your point tpatt. I was more referencing the Bachelor's and not the MSISA programs and adding the MTA exams.

forestgiant

tpatt100 wrote: »

They did it with other tests, removed half of the CCNA, got rid of the CWSP test

Based on my personal observation, yes this was clearly dumbing down snapshot.

tpatt100 wrote: »

also the Disaster Recovery one from EC-Council. The tests that get poor feedback/performance from students.

The EDRP removal, however, was the right choice. I dislike both the test and its creators.

That said, I'm not jumping to conclusions about WGU yet. It's evolving the curriculum so it'll take some time before we can conclusively say the whole program is dumbed down. Like the previous poster said, the WGU's dependence on vendors makes it both a blessing and a curse.

Psoasman

lsud00d wrote: »

It doesn't cost anything if you get scholarships and grants

Actually, it does. Pell grants come from the federal government, specifically the Dept of Education, paid for by taxes we all pay, well most of us, anyways. Scholarships are provided by the generosity of people and companies.

forestgiant

tpatt100 wrote: »

Those self learners went on and created their own opportunities though. If a person failed to thrive in a traditional college environment then maybe they are not suited for college.

Not necessarily. For a general point, it's easier to change an individual than an institution. People do mature and shred their childish snake skins to eventually finish what they started.

tpatt100 wrote: »

I think society got so hung up on "college degrees" that some people think society needs to change college to accomadate them rather the other way around.

It's true, that today's Bachelors are as good as yesterday's high school diploma. Blame that on globalisation and competition, though. Move with the time or get out of the way, right?

tpatt100 wrote: »

I only have another term left but already WGU has removed content because "a lot of their paying customers can't hang with the program". If millions of Americans have some college but no degree then maybe its the person and not the institutions that is the problem. Colleges can expand their night class offerings but college is not for everyone. It's sold as a ticket to riches and opportunities but no its not for everyone. Primary reason is college is optional and when something is optional people will quit.

Not necessarily. I took time off to care for my elderly parents and worked two jobs before I had a degree and career. There is enough extraordinary circumstances to invalidate this argument. People can and do get their acts together once they have a bitter bite of "the real world"

tpatt100 wrote: »

How are people who cannot learn through interraction going to succeed in the work environment? Already I run into enough IT people who lack basic social skills that make project implementation almost impossible because IT careers can sometimes appeal to those who are stubborn in their ways.

This is over generalization. There have been and will always be people with low social skills. So, your social skills should include learning how to deal with those people. Perhaps, just become a top chef and cut off all the fat.

petedude

erpadmin wrote: »

Mendenhall is doing a great job with WGU. This is one college president that actually deserves his millions. The staff (mentors) even seem to like him. Partaking in roundtable discussions with the President (whatever your political leanings are) says a lot!

Mendenhall has taken WGU far, but I wouldn't exactly lavish sainthood on him yet. I sometimes get the impression he pushes the college to earn a surplus from its tuition receipts, as if it were a for-profit school. This approach ends up reflecting on things like giving cheaper resources to students-- spend less money on resources in order to get higher margins.

Just my two cents. . . I could be wrong.

lsud00d

Psoasman wrote: »

Actually, it does. Pell grants come from the federal government, specifically the Dept of Education, paid for by taxes we all pay, well most of us, anyways. Scholarships are provided by the generosity of people and companies.

Good point!

I shouldn't apply my personal experience in a blanket-fashion to all college attendees.

But, my point was is that if you try hard and do good in school prior to college, you can minimize, if not eliminate, all costs incurred.

colemic

forestgiant wrote: »

Based on my personal observation, yes this was clearly dumbing down snapshot.



The EDRP removal, however, was the right choice. I dislike both the test and its creators.

That said, I'm not jumping to conclusions about WGU yet. It's evolving the curriculum so it'll take some time before we can conclusively say the whole program is dumbed down. Like the previous poster said, the WGU's dependence on vendors makes it both a blessing and a curse.

Well, I am glad they removed the CCNA, and not because I don't think I could pass it (and I realize you weren't referencing me at all.) I would rather not see any vendor-specific certs, period, and I deal with the C&A/policies side of things, and it is flat-out not relevant to me. I have never been involved in routing/switches, and don't tend to be. I would have been ok with it if they made the networking side into a split track, but they didn't. I am on the fence for the CWSP being removed.

If they were just dumbing it down, why did they add it in the first place, to replace the Network+?

tpatt100

colemic wrote: »

Well, I am glad they removed the CCNA, and not because I don't think I could pass it (and I realize you weren't referencing me at all.) I would rather not see any vendor-specific certs, period, and I deal with the C&A/policies side of things, and it is flat-out not relevant to me. I have never been involved in routing/switches, and don't tend to be. I would have been ok with it if they made the networking side into a split track, but they didn't. I am on the fence for the CWSP being removed.

If they were just dumbing it down, why did they add it in the first place, to replace the Network+?

I am not even sure why the CCNA is in a masters security program in the first place. It fits better in the networking side of the bachelors program.

erpadmin

tpatt100 wrote: »

Those self learners went on and created their own opportunities though. If a person failed to thrive in a traditional college environment then maybe they are not suited for college. I think society got so hung up on "college degrees" that some people think society needs to change college to accomadate them rather the other way around. Already we are seeing WGU "dumbing down" the degree program because they are seeing people who cannot complete the certs rather than address why people cannot complete the certs, which is probably due to the lax admissions process.

I only have another term left but already WGU has removed content because "a lot of their paying customers can't hang with the program". If millions of Americans have some college but no degree then maybe its the person and not the institutions that is the problem. Colleges can expand their night class offerings but college is not for everyone. It's sold as a ticket to riches and opportunities but no its not for everyone. Primary reason is college is optional and when something is optional people will quit.
How are people who cannot learn through interraction going to succeed in the work environment? Already I run into enough IT people who lack basic social skills that make project implementation almost impossible because IT careers can sometimes appeal to those who are stubborn in their ways.

Your points are valid.

I'm one of those people who flunked out of college. At the tender age of 19, I was already making the almost same amount of money as my dad. I didn't need college...just the college chicks. LOL.

Then, I grew up, and priorities changed. I was already reaching a plateau. People dumber than rocks were getting promotions because they had a college degree. Since I no longer binge drink, or chase after women, I can focus on college.

Enter WGU...a legitimate place of higher learning. So much so that I can go to a popular B&M school in my state.

I agree with you that WGU's admissions need to become much more selective. I also believe that WGU should NOT accept students who have no college background. I think someone should do at least a couple of night classes at community college or something to see if college is even right for them. OR even try straighterline. But having no college background or other evidence of being is a self-starter is not good for WGU in the long term. Especially if they ever want to see state affiliation in other states other than the three they have now (soon four or five).

demonfurbie

erpadmin wrote: »

Your points are valid.

I'm one of those people who flunked out of college. At the tender age of 19, I was already making the almost same amount of money as my dad. I didn't need college...just the college chicks. LOL.

Then, I grew up, and priorities changed. I was already reaching a plateau. People dumber than rocks were getting promotions because they had a college degree. Since I no longer binge drink, or chase after women, I can focus on college.

Enter WGU...a legitimate place of higher learning. So much so that I can go to a popular B&M school in my state.

I agree with you that WGU's admissions need to become much more selective. I also believe that WGU should NOT accept students who have no college background. I think someone should do at least a couple of night classes at community college or something to see if college is even right for them. OR even try straighterline. But having no college background or other evidence of being is a self-starter is not good for WGU in the long term. Especially if they ever want to see state affiliation in other states other than the three they have now (soon four or five).

i think wgu should start requiring the act or sat along with prior college credit, even if its just 1 credit for a local community college.

i dont think they should count certs as the credit.

erpadmin

demonfurbie wrote: »

i think wgu should start requiring the act or sat

I'm with you on past college credit. I'm even with you on a real basic skills exam instead of the joke WGU calls an intake exam.

But a grown man/woman taking the ACT/SAT.....no way. The fact that there's college credit in your background should be sufficient. Besides, I'm not a proponent of having first time college students study at WGU. Students with past college experience are WGU's strength.

My opinion of the certs are going to be colored by the end of the month.

powerfool

tpatt100 wrote: »

I am not even sure why the CCNA is in a masters security program in the first place. It fits better in the networking side of the bachelors program.

That has been my contention... why not have CCNP or something as part of a masters program...I think that what they are doing, overall, is a good thing... but there have been some silly things here and there.

powerfool

erpadmin wrote: »

I'm with you on past college credit. I'm even with you on a real basic skills exam instead of the joke WGU calls an intake exam. But a grown man/woman taking the ACT/SAT.....no way. The fact that there's college credit in your background should be sufficient. Besides, I'm not a proponent of having first time college students study at WGU. Students with past college experience are WGU's strength. My opinion of the certs are going to be colored by the end of the month.

Yes, previous college experience and/or sufficient work experience. Kids that are just out of high school could stand to have a more traditional college experience... adults... not so much. First it is ACT/SAT... next it is keggers and beer bongs... some things just need to stay with the young'ns.

earweed

I disagree about the ACT or SAT being required. I remember how the tests were when I was in high school and if I were to take them now would probably only get the points they allow for signing your name (kidding). With a lot of WGU students being those out of school for a long time the traditional entrance tests aren't a good indicator. I actually believe they are moving in the right direction with their current requirements.
Since most of the IT courses are culminated in passing an IT certification exam then having prior (recent and up to date) certs should be kept as a requirement

skinsFan202

I think one overlooked factor to the insane tuition rates of today are the sheer amount of amenities and services that students demand on college campuses today. Just compare the facilties of colleges 20 or 30 years ago to now. Nowadays students demand access to high-speed wi-fi coverage from every corner of campus to every dorm room. Dorm rooms are no longer just dorm rooms, students want 3 and 4br luxury suites, 9000 sq ft. state-of-the-art fitness facilities, gourmet dining options in every dining hall... When I was at VT(shouts out to my hokies!) there was one dining hall near where the football players stayed that would serve lobster and london broil... for college kids! seriously?? not to mention the cost of running 24-hour dining halls so that students can get their fix after being wasted 2 or 3am on a friday/saturday night. All this stuff costs A LOT of money and you have to pay A LOT of service people to make all this stuff happen.

veritas_libertas

skinsFan202 wrote: »

I think one overlooked factor to the insane tuition rates of today are the sheer amount of amenities and services that students demand on college campuses today. Just compare the facilties of colleges 20 or 30 years ago to now. Nowadays students demand access to high-speed wi-fi coverage from every corner of campus to every dorm room. Dorm rooms are no longer just dorm rooms, students want 3 and 4br luxury suites, 9000 sq ft. state-of-the-art fitness facilities, gourmet dining options in every dining hall... When I was at VT(shouts out to my hokies!) there was one dining hall near where the football players stayed that would serve lobster and london broil... for college kids! seriously?? not to mention the cost of running 24-hour dining halls so that students can get their fix after being wasted 2 or 3am on a friday/saturday night. All this stuff costs A LOT of money and you have to pay A LOT of service people to make all this stuff happen.

Agreed. School/College/Uni (whatever you want to call it) is not free, and it certainly should not be free.

I disagree about the ACT or SAT being required. I remember how the tests were when I was in high school and if I were to take them now would probably only get the points they allow for signing your name (kidding). With a lot of WGU students being those out of school for a long time the traditional entrance tests aren't a good indicator. I actually believe they are moving in the right direction with their current requirements.
Since most of the IT courses are culminated in passing an IT certification exam then having prior (recent and up to date) certs should be kept as a requirement

It's a non-traditional university, and as such requires non-traditional entrance requirements. I agree with you that they are working to move in the right direction. They are a relatively new university, and I give them credit for being able to change directions as they learn.

the_Grinch

I could write a book on why colleges charge so much (mostly because they can). My college had an honors dorm (you needed a certain GPA and had to take "honors" classes in school) that had a suite of 3 bedrooms. That being said they still stuffed two people into each of those rooms and you didn't get a stove. My dorm was the oldest on campus and when you factored in the space you got vs rent/utilities you broke even (just barely). The food was ok, but ours was not open 24/7 and there was only one. Also, if the weather was bad and the workers did not come in (not that I blame them, I wouldn't put my life at stake for what they were paid) then you were looking at cereal for all meals.

College is very much a supply and demand business. Big time demand for education, varying level of supply, means they can name their price. That being said, in speaking with Professors (and watching Real Time with Bill Maher) I think it is safe to say that the college bubble is going to burst. People are seeing that they are forking over sometimes $200,000 and then not getting a job. I'd say about 30 to 40% of my graduating class and friends from other schools graduated college and are working the jobs they had in high school. Part of it is the economy, part is the field they choose (feel bad for those communication majors), and part is colleges themselves. I think my generation (I'm 26) is probably the last that wasn't 100% smothered with a hover parent. It seems now that it's all about telling kids they are special and they can be whatever they want. We should amend that and say you have the ability to be whatever you want, but be realistic. I couldn't tell you the number of students I saw at my college who were paying (or their parents were paying) $40k a year for them to sit and draw......what are the career prospects on that?

The other problem is the flipping of priorities in this country. When everything on TV/the Internet is about celebrities and how they make a ton of money for doing nothing, why would anyone want to be an engineer/scientist/teacher? The sad fact is no one idolizes these people, they all want to be Kim Kardashians and Michael Jordans. Does anyone want to be an astronaut anymore?

powerfool

Federal and state financial aid make a huge impact on why schools charge so much. Instead of actually having to worry about a budget, state universities get to petition their state for more funds. All accredited universities see increases in financial aid, whether it is grants or loans, and they see more funds available to the student and therefore themselves. Cut back on financial aid and students will be more concerned with cost. Universities will respond unless they are looking to become more selective.

Mishra

powerfool wrote: »

Federal and state financial aid make a huge impact on why schools charge so much. Instead of actually having to worry about a budget, state universities get to petition their state for more funds. All accredited universities see increases in financial aid, whether it is grants or loans, and they see more funds available to the student and therefore themselves. Cut back on financial aid and students will be more concerned with cost. Universities will respond unless they are looking to become more selective.

Exactly.