What's more important for you in a Master's Degree? Certs or Theory?

instant000

I am wondering if theory is more important, or if you care about the certs more.

Poll is anonymous.

This question came about because I was wondering about the "little birdie told me" thread, and there was the rumor that there were no certs in the Networking Master's at WGU.

Per Gwendolyn Britton, WGU staff member:

... 'Tis not a rumor -- it's TRUE! Here's the story. We are currently in the process of developing a new Masters Degree in Information Technology Network Management. I'll be writing a blog post to give you more details. Be sure to check there for more information.

Now, what I'm not sure of is if Ms. Britton is confirming only that there is a new degree coming out (which her forum post does confirm) or if she is even moreso saying that the degree doesn't include certifications. Now I want to see that blog post.

Zartanasaurus

I can self-study for certs. I don't want to shell out thousands for a cert training course M.S. degree. Makes college no better than a 2-3 year boot camp.

instant000

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

I can self-study for certs. I don't want to shell out thousands for a cert training course M.S. degree. Makes college no better than a 2-3 year boot camp.

Hah. I was thinking the same thing. That is, that it'd be more time and cost effective to self-study for the certs, if that's what you're after.

Your signature looks like this:
CCNA-sec/Switch/Route/TShoot
I don't know the second row, so don't want to butcher it.

powerfool

While I see a good bang for your buck with programs like WGU, knowing what I know about them, I see them as a shortcut and it probably would/will shade my hiring process. If you are in a bind, go for it. If you have better options, I would take them instead.

Essentially agreeing with Zartanasaurus.

forestgiant

Well, the poll didn't say what field the MS is in. Are you referring specifically to the WGU's MS ISA or potential MS Networking, but throwing out a generic poll?

It boils down to the individual school's approach and what people will invest in it. I think WGU's approach is the right one, because as a student I get to kill two birds (certs and theory) with one stone (MS ISA degree).

As someone with just a few courses remaining, I'd say that only the CCENT/CCNA courses were apparent vendor specific. Much of the CCNA stuffs apply to all type of networking gears, so while I dislike having to memorize Cisco-specific commands, I know they'd come in useful should I find myself in a Cisco-heavy environment.

The EC-COUNCIL is another story; the learning materials were adequate on the theory side, but as I've stated before the exams appeared poorly written. That's a poor reflection on the exams' item writers, not WGU.

erpadmin

powerfool wrote: »

While I see a good bang for your buck with programs like WGU, knowing what I know about them, I see them as a shortcut and it probably would/will shade my hiring process.

That sentiment is precisely why I am going B&M after WGU...to prove to others that WGU is no shortcut to anything. Mind you, I don't knock you, Powerfool, for having that sentiment; just pointing out that soon, that sentiment may warrant some retooling at some point.

As a student (soon to be graduate) of WGU, I see two sides of the same coin in regards to mixing academia up with certs. The first side of it appeals to TE members (myself included) as a way to not blow off studying for certs. I've been in IT for a long time, and had I had a mental gun to my head, I'd have been a MCSE NT in 4.0 2000 and/or 2003. I would read the books that were available (some exam crams, or some stuff from Minasi.) I just got gun-shy and never went for the certs. WGU pretty much appeals to people like me....it forces you to earn the certs by studying.

Now for the second side of that coin--the side that you and Zartan relate to.

You guys probably have the discipline for self-study. God bless you--I sure didn't. I was too busy focusing on having a social life and hanging out with the cool kids to have bothered with certs...or a degree. I am going to at some point in 2012 see if I have the wherewithal to see if I can earn a SQL Server 2008 DBA certification. Been dealing with SQL Server for the past 8 years (going on 9)...now that I will soon have the 2008 equivalent of the MCSE (with the gun to my head), I'm fixin' to see if I can get the DBA cert without it--it's 50/50. I know one thing; if I think it would interfere with my graduate studies (and this from a school that's considered top-tier nationally--NJIT) then I won't do it.

To bring this thread into full circle, I find it very doubtful that I would, personally want to go for a degree that incorporated certs in their degrees again. That's not to say that WGU was terrible for doing so, but what I can tell you is that the liberal arts component exists. WGU looks a lot better than those tech schools I see on daytime TV. I would have NEVER done a WGU degree if it meant that I had to earn a CCNA. (I want a CCNA for fun and enjoyment....not to get a job. I got out of the router game back in the late 90s at my JOAT job....CCNAs I figured to be dimes a dozen. Plus, I would like to take my time building a proper CCNA lab. Doing a CCNA in six months like WGU would have students do is madness, in my opinion. It probably would take a couple of months for someone already doing NOC work....but for someone who isn't, but yet still familiar....a few months or a year sounds reasonable. Not to mention that I would do the CCNA the old school way--one test.)

Doing the MCITP:EA is no easy feat either; even with practical experience. That Microsoft Way bullcrap turns a lot of us experienced folks off. However, I knew it was within me to do it. I am just one exam away and I can call myself both an EA and a graduate. But would I recommend that path to others? Only if they know how to budget their time (or figure it out real quick-like) or know what they're getting into.

WGU not including certs into this program may not be so terrible. In the end, it's all about getting the degree. That's why my vote, based on the choices, is for the sheepskin.

colemic

I agree with ERP's 2nd to last sentence - it's all about getting the degree. I am in the MSIA program, and initially, I saw the appeal of mixing certs and theory. But - and this is my chief gripe with the MSIA - I have realized that most, (if not all), of the certs in the program are not beneficial to a career using a Master's degree in information security and assurance, at least what I perceive MY career goals to be be after earning the degree.

And I can see (somewhat) the logic behind the certs - but I would rather see a focus on learning the security theories behind the exams, more than focusing on exams that frankly aren't at a Master's level, such as CEH and especially CCENT. And yes I realize I am a hypocrite because I was happy they went to CCENT instead of CCNA - but that is because I don't see either one as being particularly useful or relevant to me, and it is the lesser of the two evils. I'd rather not do either one, but I'll do one Cisco exam instead of two, thankyouverymuch.

CCENT, CEH, CHFI, GIAC 2700 - the GIAC is the only one I feel could really be relevant to the kind of position I want after finishing my Master's. The others are certs that I feel show technical expertise, but as I have said in another thread, my goals with this degree are not technical, but more managerial in nature. Others may (and I am sure do) feel differently.

tpatt100

I originally thought the certs would be a good thing going to WGU but working in the IT security field the choice of certs beyond the CEH or GIAC are all kind of "meh" to me. I would rather WGU create some challenging labs where you have to put to use skills you learned that will transfer to the real world. For example I used a few of my class task assignments for my current job. I literally transferred the documents and create templates from them for all the policies I had to create/write.

For the security labs I would prefer more elaborate pen test simulations using VMs and the requirement of writing out the process as a security consultant and maybe require the assignments be put up for peer review. Let fellow students evaluate your assignments, critique, give recommendations, make students use the knowledge they learned for assessing other security labs and or policies.

WGU and certs should only have at most 2-3 certs. Certs that are established in the IT field like the GIAC series or CEH only, not a bunch of stuff all over the place.

veritas_libertas

instant000 wrote: »

I am wondering if theory is more important, or if you care about the certs more.

Poll is anonymous.

This question came about because I was wondering about the "little birdie told me" thread, and there was the rumor that there were no certs in the Networking Master's at WGU.

Per Gwendolyn Britton, WGU staff member:


Now, what I'm not sure of is if Ms. Britton is confirming only that there is a new degree coming out (which her forum post does confirm) or if she is even more so saying that the degree doesn't include certifications. Now I want to see that blog post.

What kind of a name is "Masters Degree in Information Technology Network Management". Does she mean an MSIT with an emphasis in Network Management? Now that would make more sense to me.

veritas_libertas

Which forum did you see this on?

colemic

The 'A Little Birdie Told Me' thread, I think.

Edit, can't seem to find it. But I know I saw it here as well.

oot

Its from "Information Technology Graduate Program Community" discussion post topic from WGU student site.

veritas_libertas

Ah. That explains why I don't have access to it.

nel

University and certfications should be two different types of learning imo and rightly so. I wouldnt take a degree that was solely based on certification tracks. Whether its worth someones time and money are a different story. Im glad i have up to a postgrad level from my experience.

demonfurbie

I perosnally think it should be based on research and pratical application

jmasterj206

You know I though getting the certifications with the degree would be a good thing. After running into all my issues with the 70-642 test it is looking like I am going to waste a whole semester on one MS class. 2800 dollars for a 125 dollar test! If I were to do it again I would just do the generic BSIT track and work on certs on my own.

I would however understand for some people the cert degree path would give them motivation to get certs done along with a degree. Paying 2800 dollars sure makes you push towards getting it done if you are not a self motivator.

demonfurbie

jmasterj206 wrote: »

You know I though getting the certifications with the degree would be a good thing. After running into all my issues with the 70-642 test it is looking like I am going to waste a whole semester on one MS class. 2800 dollars for a 125 dollar test! If I were to do it again I would just do the generic BSIT track and work on certs on my own.

I would however understand for some people the cert degree path would give them motivation to get certs done along with a degree. Paying 2800 dollars sure makes you push towards getting it done if you are not a self motivator.

I thought the same thing

Now I'm switching to the normal degree and I'm gonna do sec/linux when I'm done

veritas_libertas

demonfurbie wrote: »

I personally think it should be based on research and practical application

I agree. I switched from the BSIT:Network Design to the generic BSIT because I wanted to make my education more well rounded. I also didn't want to spend an entire semester on a few $125 MS exams.

colemic

colemic wrote: »

The 'A Little Birdie Told Me' thread, I think.

Edit, can't seem to find it. But I know I saw it here as well.

It also is posted on here, I read it this morning. I just can't find the thread (since I didn't reply to it.)

colemic

Apparently I work in the Department of Redunancy Department.

It's the first post of this thread.

instant000

They've confirmed it, see here: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/72626-confirmed-new-masters-wgu.html

blargoe

Call me traditional, but I consider certifications and degrees to be wholly separate, although some programs allow credit for having certs. I think of advanced certs in IT just like advanced certs in automotive, accounting, pharmacy, nursing, or any skilled profession... it's a vocationally specific credential, but it isn't the same as an education. Not worse, not better, just different.

instant000

tpatt100 wrote: »

the choice of certs beyond the CEH or GIAC are all kind of "meh" to me.

This is misleading. You know as well as I do that there is no "choice" when it comes to what certs you do in the MSISA program.

I would rather WGU create some challenging labs where you have to put to use skills you learned that will transfer to the real world.

I thought that's what the capstone was for?

For example I used a few of my class task assignments for my current job. I literally transferred the documents and create templates from them for all the policies I had to create/write.

So, you're saying you've used the performance assessments for real-world application already ... that's a good endorsement of the coursework at WGU.

For the security labs I would prefer more elaborate pen test simulations using VMs and the requirement of writing out the process as a security consultant and maybe require the assignments be put up for peer review. Let fellow students evaluate your assignments, critique, give recommendations, make students use the knowledge they learned for assessing other security labs and or policies.

^^^ I don't see any assessments that we currently have of that flavor. Seems like you're describing a capstone, though.

WGU and certs should only have at most 2-3 certs. Certs that are established in the IT field like the GIAC series or CEH only, not a bunch of stuff all over the place.

Agreed. I think the program is still young, and wouldn't be surprised if it steadily morphs into a "centers of excellence" curriculum over time. I'm glad that they're adding in the class on "Risk" to the MSISA, for example, as that's an important part of information assurance. I mean, it could be said that they may have the end goal of more of the NSA style curriculum, but they're using the certs as filler until they get all of the material/staffing in place to provide that type of curriculum. Also, it does go to show they're also listening to their students, if they're willing to drop the DR test, considering there is already assessments for DR already, which would cover the material from that test.

EDIT: I'm not paid by WGU, only a student. I know this post would lead you to think I was getting paid to post this, LOL.