Best bachelor's degree to get to work in IT/ entry level IT pay?

SPL Tech

I recently finished serving on active duty in the Navy for four years. I basically did help desk tier IIA/ III support stuff. Being that I already have some experience working in a help desk position, I am considering obtaining a degree in the field and continuing civilian IT work after I finish my degree. Part of my decision has been based on the fact that every time I type something along the lines of "top 10 jobs" or "top 10 most in demand careers" or "top 10 highest paid entry level jobs" into Google, IT always makes the list and its usually towards the top of the list. So the two questions I have:

1. Is IT truly a "top 10" career in the USA, does it offer reasonably high starting pay out of college with a strong outlook compared to other fields?

2. The two schools I am considering name their IT degrees a bit differently despite having similar courses. One calls their degree a B.S. in computer science while the other calls their degree a B.S. in information technology with a concentration in information systems security (or networking if you choose that degree instead). The first school is a regionally accredited 4-year public school, and the second is the University of Phoenix which most of you have heard of. But in case you havent, its a 4-year and 6-year private school with an alternative schedule that is regionally accredited. Does it matter which of the two I get, and are they marketable, versatile and worthwhile degrees?

Anyway I am thinking its either a B.S. in the IT field or a B.S. in electrical engineering. I was considering getting a BSN (nursing/ RN) but the health field is getting a bit squishy, there arnt many entry level jobs anymore due to the influx of RN grads in 2009. I am not sure what else I really in demand. I am pretty much told that those three degrees as well as most engineering degrees and business management or the related are really the only degrees in high demand. Ultimately I am trying to figure what type of 4-year degree will get me reasonable high pay out of school with a good job outlook, something that is in demand and marketable.

tpatt100

You already have help desk experience so you are already most of the way there as far as getting a job in IT. Going to school on the other hand? Not sure it makes much difference to be honest since most of my advances came from stuff I self studied vs what I learned in school.

blargoe

SPL Tech wrote: »

I recently finished serving on active duty in the Navy for four years. I basically did help desk tier IIA/ III support stuff. Being that I already have some experience working in a help desk position, I am considering obtaining a degree in the field and continuing civilian IT work after I finish my degree. Part of my decision has been based on the fact that every time I type something along the lines of "top 10 jobs" or "top 10 most in demand careers" or "top 10 highest paid entry level jobs" into Google, IT always makes the list and its usually towards the top of the list. So the two questions I have:

1. Is IT truly a "top 10" career in the USA, does it offer reasonably high starting pay out of college with a strong outlook compared to other fields?

2. The two schools I am considering name their IT degrees a bit differently despite having similar courses. One calls their degree a B.S. in computer science while the other calls their degree a B.S. in information technology with a concentration in information systems security (or networking if you choose that degree instead). The first school is a regionally accredited 4-year public school, and the second is the University of Phoenix which most of you have heard of. But in case you havent, its a 4-year and 6-year private school with an alternative schedule that is regionally accredited. Does it matter which of the two I get, and are they marketable, versatile and worthwhile degrees?

Anyway I am thinking its either a B.S. in the IT field or a B.S. in electrical engineering. I was considering getting a BSN (nursing/ RN) but the health field is getting a bit squishy, there arnt many entry level jobs anymore due to the influx of RN grads in 2009. I am not sure what else I really in demand. I am pretty much told that those three degrees as well as most engineering degrees and business management or the related are really the only degrees in high demand. Ultimately I am trying to figure what type of 4-year degree will get me reasonable high pay out of school with a good job outlook, something that is in demand and marketable.

How did you like working in IT during your stint in the Navy? That should tell you a lot about which direction you should go. If you are unhappy in your job it will affect everything you do in life.

That said, you definitely have a leg up on your counterparts in the civilian world if you do see yourself working in IT as a career since you do already have experience. You ought to be able to find a tier 2 support position right away. Do you have an active security clearance? That will get you fast-tracked if you work in the DC area or near a military base. Depends on what you want to do. Either way, "high pay" and "entry level" are, usually, mutually exclusive, but in whichever field you choose to pursue, it shouldn't take you terribly long to get there.

If you stay in IT, would you want to focus more on Networks or Servers?

powerfool

I would work on getting a job now. I presume that you signed up for the GI Bill. Find a job that will give you tuition reimbursement. That way, you can get double money, as I don't think you can get other financial aid until your GI Bill is exhausted (I believe that is the recent change...). Anyhow, that way you can keep your experience going, as well, and just do school part-time. Regardless of your starting pay, this will help you along in increasing your pay throughout your career.

Information Systems degrees are typically offered through the business school of the university and have the core business courses of any business degree plus IS courses. These have a great advantage for IT folks because there is a long-standing notion that IT folks have no soft-skills. Having a business degree puts you in a better light in those regards. Plus, the other business courses do give you a good understanding of accounting and managerial decisions, which are good skills to have working for any organization.

Computer Science degrees are typically offered through the math department of the university and have a large math component and focus on programming and logic. If you have any interest in programming (even if you may not be interested in doing it for your job), then you may like this. I believe that my programming experience has suited me well as I transitioned to networking and systems and I am still sharp enough to do some minor programming for tools that I create for myself.

Some other schools have programs that are offered through the engineering school of the university, like Computer Engineering or [Computer] Information Technology. These will be more focused on engineering aspects, obviously, and have great appeal in that regard.

Keep in mind, that if you do work and become a part-time student, you will need one or both of your endeavors to be flexible. If you need to go to school during the day because that is the only time your courses are available, then you will need an evening job or one that is extremely flexible. If you have a full-time day job, you will likely need to take courses in the evening or online.

Looking back on things, there are classes that I would have liked to take during the day that my job inhibited me from. I could have probably pressed the issue and got some flexibility for a class here and there, but I didn't. I was supporting a family then (I still am) and the job supported that.

If you go online, then you get flexibility but you lose the opportunity to experience campus life, which may be desirable after being in the military (I had a family during my military time, so it didn't apply, but my brother loved campus life after being in the military).

Also, you could look at getting a job at the university. Many times, they will be extremely flexible with your schedule and give you either free tuition or a discount.

Lots of things to consider. Best wishes.

Everyone

B.S. in Computer Science and B.S. in Information Technology are 2 complete different things, forget the fact that you found the degrees at 2 different schools. There are schools that offer BOTH of those degrees. Computer Science usually has a lot more programming in it. If programming isn't your thing, for for the Information Technology (often listed as Information Systems).

I'd avoid University of Phoenix. I'm surprised there aren't already 10 replies in here telling you to look into WGU, so I guess I'll be the first. :P

If you are a single guy, and think you may have a hard time working and going to school at the same time, then by all means find a good traditional "brick and mortar" school to go to full time.

If you can handle working and taking classes, then find a job first. You already have experience. If you have a security clearance on top of that, even better. If you play your cards right, it shouldn't be hard for you to find a job. My base salary for my 1st job after leaving the Military was more than double what I made as an E-5. Use that experience you gained while in to your advantage!

Either way, definitely take advantage of your G.I. Bill benefits.

Qord

Although I'm inclined to say "NO" to Phoenix immediately, I'll wait. My suggestion would be to send your SMART transcripts to any school you're thinking about, and see who gives you the most credit for it. I've seen a lot of people short-change themselves...could have gotten a degree in 2 years but didn't send in SMART or picked a school or program that didn't accept/apply them, and wound up with a 4-year loan.

Honestly, most IT folk I know in real life have degrees that have nothing to do with IT. My boss got his BA in Romance Languages, but he's the Sys Admin here. Don't go for an IT-related degree because you think you need to, do it because you want to. If this isn't what you really want, then go for whatever it is that you really want. From my experience, having a degree does matter, but what the degree is in matters much less.

phaneuf1

Qord wrote: »

Although I'm inclined to say "NO" to Phoenix immediately, I'll wait. My suggestion would be to send your SMART transcripts to any school you're thinking about, and see who gives you the most credit for it. I've seen a lot of people short-change themselves...could have gotten a degree in 2 years but didn't send in SMART or picked a school or program that didn't accept/apply them, and wound up with a 4-year loan.

Honestly, most IT folk I know in real life have degrees that have nothing to do with IT. My boss got his BA in Romance Languages, but he's the Sys Admin here. Don't go for an IT-related degree because you think you need to, do it because you want to. If this isn't what you really want, then go for whatever it is that you really want. From my experience, having a degree does matter, but what the degree is in matters much less.

You're saying that what you major in has no importance? It was true 20 years ago, but today it's completely different, especially in IT. If you want a good job in IT, you better have a degree in a related field. Keep in mind that he is going to be looking for an entry-level job and that means he doesn't have any experience to compensate with.

Qord

phaneuf1 wrote: »

You're saying that what you major in has no importance? It was true 20 years ago, but today it's completely different, especially in IT. If you want a good job in IT, you better have a degree in a related field. Keep in mind that he is going to be looking for an entry-level job and that means he doesn't have any experience to compensate with.

If that is what I was saying, that's what I would have said. But that's not what I said, so that's not what I'm saying.

If you read between the lines of what he wrote, it sounds more like he wants to go for an IT-related degree because it sounds like a good idea, not necessarily because that's what he wants. I'm saying that it's perfectly viable to get a degree in what you want, and still be an IT professional. Would it be a better idea if he got a B.S. in computer science instead of Business or something else?....maybe, maybe not. If all he's looking for is a foot in the door, then chances are that any degree will do. He's already got 4 years experience from his Navy time, and that coupled with a degree is a pretty good start for an entry-level position. In fact, depending on where he lives, that four years might be enough by itself right now, especially considering it's fresh. He could possibly get a decent job right now, maybe even one with tuition reimbursement!! In that kind of ideal scenario, there wouldn't even be a break in employment, which looks great on a resume.

SPL Tech

For those that said NO to University of Phoenix, can I ask why? One of the main reasons why I was interested in them was the fact that they offered me 32 credits towards the degree. Other schools were only offering 10 or so. The 32 credits basically means I get to skip all of freshman year.

erpadmin

SPL Tech wrote: »

For those that said NO to University of Phoenix, can I ask why? One of the main reasons why I was interested in them was the fact that they offered me 32 credits towards the degree. Other schools were only offering 10 or so. The 32 credits basically means I get to skip all of freshman year.

I don't have time to do this at this very second, but if you were to compare the cost of UoP's credit hours, vs. the cost and difference of the other schools you looked at in regards to your credits, you'd probably find that UoP is still terribly expensive, even with your 32 credits.

Between UoP's reputation and for-profit model, I don't see it as being a good school. Especially when more established schools are cheaper than UoP. Pretty soon, people are going to start seeing the light on them....

powerfool

phaneuf1 wrote: »

You're saying that what you major in has no importance? It was true 20 years ago, but today it's completely different, especially in IT. If you want a good job in IT, you better have a degree in a related field. Keep in mind that he is going to be looking for an entry-level job and that means he doesn't have any experience to compensate with.

Considering that there are tons of IT folks with no degree, I am going to have to say that your major matters less that you might believe; simply having a college education puts you head and shoulders above those without one. I have known many folks that did not have any sort of IT-related degree... like communications or music, and they have done VERY well in IT.

The difference? They were dedicated and had upper-end certifications that proved their worth on top of their experience.

Granted, if someone intends to work in IT... getting an IT-related degree makes sense and it will make things much easier than a non-IT-related degree... but it is by no means impossible to do so otherwise.

drumrolfe

SPL Tech wrote: »

For those that said NO to University of Phoenix, can I ask why? One of the main reasons why I was interested in them was the fact that they offered me 32 credits towards the degree. Other schools were only offering 10 or so. The 32 credits basically means I get to skip all of freshman year.

I regret obtaining my AA from UoP. The cost was outrageous and the quality was not very good. Since finishing my BS at WGU, I have sincerely regretted ever attending UoP. It wasn't for me.

Having other funding like the GI Bill may have changed my demeanor towards UoP, but I'm now paying out-of-pocket through student loans for the sub-par education I received at UoP. They ARE great salespeople, though.

the_Grinch

Yeah I would run from UoP, the stigma is in place and I've heard from various employers/schools that they won't even look if the degree is from there. As for what major you should choose, if it were me, I would go for the Computer Science degree. You might find you like programming, if not, you can still work in IT with that degree. If you wanted to become a programmer it is a lot harder if you lack the Computer Science degree. That being said, you can probably major in just about anything. I know lots of IT people with degrees in Biology, Music, and various other things. I will say that I had an interview at a hospital and they were very excited that I had a degree in IT as most everyone in the department had a degree in something else. The other thing is the Masters program I am applying too takes people from various backgrounds who are trying to change careers into IT, so there is always that if you wanted to do something else.

Dsmith81

I personally don't recommend Phoenix, I attended one semester there in an online program. It was very expensive and the content for the course was ridiculous. I feel like I wasted $1500.00. I am now attending Capella University for BS in Information Technology. I am getting a discount from my company for Capella, It seems like a decent school so far, but it's still expensive. My intention is to transfer to WGU to finish my degree, but they told me I needed to get at least 1 IT certification before I could be accepted there.

SteveLord

Make sure you get hooked up with Skillport via your Navy Knowledge Online account. There is lots of free CBT courses/practice tests there for IT that would cost a civilian thousands. In addition, you can get to Books24x7 from them. I think this is a very little known feature of our military KO accounts as I've never seen anyone else mention it.

If you don't have a CAC card, get a buddy that is still serving to act as your sponsor.

thalador

Hi there. To the OP: Avoid UoP at all costs. I spent a good portion of the last 6 years taking classes there. They cost around $1900 per class and are 5 weeks long which means you learn nothing. I have signed up with WGU and will start in February. As for which facet of IT to go into, I would focus on security. I have worked with OS's for 20 years, on the infrastructure side now and it is a dead end. If you have aspirations of moving up into an executive role someday they never come from infrastructure, it is usually applications or security.

instant000

SteveLord wrote: »

Make sure you get hooked up with Skillport via your Navy Knowledge Online account. There is lots of free CBT courses/practice tests there for IT that would cost a civilian thousands. In addition, you can get to Books24x7 from them. I think this is a very little known feature of our military KO accounts as I've never seen anyone else mention it. If you don't have a CAC card, get a buddy that is still serving to act as your sponsor.

You mention books 24x7. I know that the Army gets Safari Books Online. I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy got it also.

instant000

SPL Tech wrote: »

I recently finished serving on active duty in the Navy for four years.

Thanks for your service.

I basically did help desk tier IIA/ III support stuff. Being that I already have some experience working in a help desk position, I am considering obtaining a degree in the field and continuing civilian IT work after I finish my degree.

I would recommend getting right to work, and doing the school on your own time in the background while you advance.

Part of my decision has been based on the fact that every time I type something along the lines of "top 10 jobs" or "top 10 most in demand careers" or "top 10 highest paid entry level jobs" into Google, IT always makes the list and its usually towards the top of the list.

*Ahem* You're not entry level. You have four years of documented work experience. Don't worry about entry level pay. Look at mid-level pay.

So the two questions I have:

1. Is IT truly a "top 10" career in the USA, does it offer reasonably high starting pay out of college with a strong outlook compared to other fields?

It depends on what you do. I would hope that an E.E. or C.S. major would have a better starting pay out of college than an I.S. major, just because I see those programs as being a little more rigorous. Even with that said, how far you go is more dependent upon effort. Most starting pays in IT suck. Honestly, you already have four years of experience. You should be targeting Tier II or Tier III positions, depending on how your work skills translate over to the civilian positions.

2. The two schools I am considering name their IT degrees a bit differently despite having similar courses. One calls their degree a B.S. in computer science while the other calls their degree a B.S. in information technology with a concentration in information systems security (or networking if you choose that degree instead). The first school is a regionally accredited 4-year public school, and the second is the University of Phoenix which most of you have heard of. But in case you havent, its a 4-year and 6-year private school with an alternative schedule that is regionally accredited. Does it matter which of the two I get, and are they marketable, versatile and worthwhile degrees?

A computer science degree should be programming heavy, and you get to research algorithms and what not. An information systems degree should have less programming in it. I won't call it a "fluff" degree, but definitely the computer science degree would be seen as more rigorous, but it seems to be tuned into being a programmer.

As far as it mattering, it depends on the situation, and the company you're applying to. If you're going to apply to work somewhere, then the public school (if well known) would have more pull.

Anyway I am thinking its either a B.S. in the IT field or a B.S. in electrical engineering. I was considering getting a BSN (nursing/ RN) but the health field is getting a bit squishy, there arnt many entry level jobs anymore due to the influx of RN grads in 2009. I am not sure what else I really in demand. I am pretty much told that those three degrees as well as most engineering degrees and business management or the related are really the only degrees in high demand. Ultimately I am trying to figure what type of 4-year degree will get me reasonable high pay out of school with a good job outlook, something that is in demand and marketable.

The deal here is that now you're comparing B.S. IT vs. B.S.EE ... two different things again.

To sum it up:
The B.S.IT would be the person running the servers and networks.
The B.S.EE would be the person designing the hardware that runs these things.
The B.S.CS would be the person writing the software

If you're not sure, then the B.S.CS is probably the safest one to choose.

What you didn't seem to ask for was any recommendations, so I'm taking the liberty of giving my advice anyway. Knowing it was not requested, I won't be hurt if it's rejected.


1. Experience goes a LOOONG way. Schooling is nice to help you surpass the artificial ceilings, but nothing beats experience. Look for jobs now.
2. Security Clearance Jobs - ClearanceJobs.com Your clearance is very marketable at the moment. If you sit around and do not use it, you give time for your clearance to go inactive, when that's a major selling point that you have for yourself right now.
3. WGU Online University | Online Degree Programs, Accredited Bachelor's and Master's Start the schooling now, not later. You can get in schools like WGU while you're still in. And if you're out of the service, you can go to school while you're working.
4. No reason to spend a fortune on a BS degree, whether it is paid via GI Bill or not. In fact, if you know that you want to do IT, then WGU would be a great value for your money, considering that you've already been working in the field for a while.
5. Throwing away your four years of experience in IT to branch off into nursing ... doesn't make much sense to me. But, if you do want to do that, try to get an IT job in the healthcare field. Then, if you transition over, you can leverage your industry knowledge, and might be able to leverage a management position, due to your healthcare experience.
6. Free MCTS MCITP CCNA CISSP and Network+ practice exams, study notes and forums Maybe work on a cert you're interested in, that can slot you towards the job you want to work in.

eserfeliz

SPL Tech wrote: »

I recently finished serving on active duty in the Navy for four years. I basically did help desk tier IIA/ III support stuff. Being that I already have some experience working in a help desk position, I am considering obtaining a degree in the field and continuing civilian IT work after I finish my degree. Part of my decision has been based on the fact that every time I type something along the lines of "top 10 jobs" or "top 10 most in demand careers" or "top 10 highest paid entry level jobs" into Google, IT always makes the list and its usually towards the top of the list. So the two questions I have:

1. Is IT truly a "top 10" career in the USA, does it offer reasonably high starting pay out of college with a strong outlook compared to other fields?

2. The two schools I am considering name their IT degrees a bit differently despite having similar courses. One calls their degree a B.S. in computer science while the other calls their degree a B.S. in information technology with a concentration in information systems security (or networking if you choose that degree instead). The first school is a regionally accredited 4-year public school, and the second is the University of Phoenix which most of you have heard of. But in case you havent, its a 4-year and 6-year private school with an alternative schedule that is regionally accredited. Does it matter which of the two I get, and are they marketable, versatile and worthwhile degrees?

Anyway I am thinking its either a B.S. in the IT field or a B.S. in electrical engineering. I was considering getting a BSN (nursing/ RN) but the health field is getting a bit squishy, there arnt many entry level jobs anymore due to the influx of RN grads in 2009. I am not sure what else I really in demand. I am pretty much told that those three degrees as well as most engineering degrees and business management or the related are really the only degrees in high demand. Ultimately I am trying to figure what type of 4-year degree will get me reasonable high pay out of school with a good job outlook, something that is in demand and marketable.

1) IT is honestly one of the last fields on the planet where a person can possibly be paid for what they know. I have a buddy with a high school diploma and 13-15 years IT experience pulling down six figures working for Cisco, because, well, he knows his stuff. But, as much as I hate to admit it, as someone's said previously, it's not about the money. You should love what you do, whether you're being paid a dollar or a million. Think about what you want to do every day until you retire or drop dead. If it's IT, anchors aweigh, my boy.

2) I would steer clear of UoP. Besides what others have said about the curriculum, the allegations with regard to UoP's shady recruitment practices would keep me far away from requesting their services. They might give you a little sweet in the beginning, offering you credits for real life experience and whatnot, but in the end, I'm fairly certain they'd leave a bitter taste in your mouth. I haven't heard anything good about them, save that my former supervisor's wife graduated with a 3.97 GPA from there. He also told me she ended up doing a lot of group work by herself, so. YMMV, as the kids say.

Just to reiterate, spend some time figuring out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and go study that. No point in wasting time studying something you think might make you a lot of money, and come four years from now the bottom falls out of the industry anyway.

benbuiltpc

erpadmin wrote: »

Between UoP's reputation and for-profit model, I don't see it as being a good school. Especially when more established schools are cheaper than UoP. Pretty soon, people are going to start seeing the light on them....

I generally agree with this, and personally decided to avoid UoP and other schools (Capella, Kaplan, etc.) for these reasons amongst others. But, I think it's notable (and perhaps faulty logic) how our view of 'for profit' equates to sub-par education, especially given the environment that us techies thrive in.

We've decided that when it comes to certification, 'for-profit' is just fine; highly sought after, in fact. We trust that Cisco, Microsoft, etc. offer the best education when it comes to their respective products and we don't question or judge their business models. What makes a school different? Are their motives less pure?

erpadmin

benbuiltpc wrote: »

I generally agree with this, and personally decided to avoid UoP and other schools (Capella, Kaplan, etc.) for these reasons amongst others. But, I think it's notable (and perhaps faulty logic) how our view of 'for profit' equates to sub-par education, especially given the environment that us techies thrive in.

We've decided that when it comes to certification, 'for-profit' is just fine; highly sought after, in fact. We trust that Cisco, Microsoft, etc. offer the best education when it comes to their respective products and we don't question or judge their business models. What makes a school different? Are their motives less pure?

Cisco and Microsoft's bread and butter isn't in education of their products; they offer the education in their products so that those that support those company's products can better support them. Many times, however, you're dealing with real world scenarios vs. what Cisco/Microsoft teaches (though I can't comment too much on Cisco, I can definitely vouch for that on the Microsoft end.)

To say that 'for-profit' is highly sought after is not entirely accurate. I highly recommend that you watch College, Inc., and then get back to this discussion. But to give you the nutshell version, the motives of 'for-profit' schools are the same as any other 'for-profit' entity: TO MAKE MONEY! For-profits, like Capella, UoP, etc., are entities that are owned by publicly traded companies. They only have one goal: to make their shareholders the most amount of money with the least amount of costs.

Now, this isn't to say that non-profits don't do the same thing. However, the biggest difference is that they have no shareholders to answer to. Whatever money a non-profit makes goes back into the institution. They don't have to answer to shareholders.

The reason UoP has 200,000+ students is because a good majority of them (and this will be shown to you in College, Inc.) have tried to go the regular college route, but could not get in. The reason why UoP can get away with Harvard-like tuition for community college students is because UoP forced them to get federal loans that couldn't be paid back. Between that, and the very scrupulous practices that their enrollment counselers were doing. For example, many people were enrolling to UoP and getting loans. But instead of getting an education, they were just getting the overpayments, pocketing it (which amounted to a few hundred dollars or a couple of grand), and never dealing with the coursework. Meanwhile, UoP was getting the tuition, courtesy of the Federal Government and pocketing that. The only reason why for-profits are still around is because with all that money those companies got to pocket, they have formed a powerful special interest lobby.

So yes, I'll get back to my original point...if someone (like myself) wants a quality online education, at an affordable cost, there are MANY legitimate alternatives to UoP and other for-profit models. One does not need a for-profit school to obtain a quality, online education.

I'll say this much though. The one GOOD thing the for-profits did was actually prove that an online model can work for working adults like myself. That's why a lot of state schools are embracing the online model. Unfortunately, many tenured professors are trying to block the progress and keep the status quo the status quo. However, I think between students and university administrations, those folks can be defeated.

DigitalZeroOne

benbuiltpc wrote: »

I generally agree with this, and personally decided to avoid UoP and other schools (Capella, Kaplan, etc.) for these reasons amongst others. But, I think it's notable (and perhaps faulty logic) how our view of 'for profit' equates to sub-par education, especially given the environment that us techies thrive in.

We've decided that when it comes to certification, 'for-profit' is just fine; highly sought after, in fact. We trust that Cisco, Microsoft, etc. offer the best education when it comes to their respective products and we don't question or judge their business models. What makes a school different? Are their motives less pure?

Regardless of how the institution is labeled, for-profit/not for-profit, every institution needs money to survive, so I'm not against profit for these schools. The problem is the reputation that they have established, it's hard to wash off the negative stigma that these schools have.

I went to UoP for a few months a few years ago, things may have changed, but I did not like the group model. I don't want the outcome of my grade to be dependent on someone else. I also feel that 5 weeks isn't long enough to really learn...of course, and I know this sounds hypocritical, the reason why I chose Phoenix was because I wanted a "fast" degree. I realize that my parents were right when they said "Anything worth having is worth working for and waiting for".

Data travels at the speed of light, I can instantly watch a movie on the internet, the microwave can cook meals in minutes, I can send a text to someone on the other side of the country instantly, but some things are still better when time and effort is involved. I'm not saying that for-profit schools don't take effort, but in my case, and for the people who were my classmates at the time, we went because we wanted our "effort" to be a little less.

I graduated from a small no name private non-profit school, and I am happy that I did. I wish more community colleges offered 4-years degrees, I see them popping up, because I would have gone that route and saved even more money, but I'm happy with this outcome.

You have all types of employers out there that have varying opinions on some of these for-profit schools, some don't care, they just want to see a degree, and some will negatively look at your degree from insert for-profit school. There are also students who are very bright, and they choose to go to these schools for convenience, or for whatever varying reason. The problem is that most of us are going to probably work for someone, so opinions do matter, so right or wrong, these for-profit schools have received a negative opinion, I'm sure plenty of people can show evidence of some friend or colleague with a successful career after graduating from ITT, or Kaplan, or UoP, or wherever else, but that still does not change the opinion of the schools in many employers eyes.

Regarding certification, the cost of most of these certs are $125-300, give or take, and while I do feel that some employers put too much emphasize on certifications, I won't have to worry about student loan debt for these certs...now I may have to worry about some boot-camp charging $6k for whatever technology and promising you the world when you finish...correction, I don't have to worry about the boot-camp, because I avoid them as well.

SPL Tech

erpadmin wrote: »

Cisco and Microsoft's bread and butter isn't in education of their products; they offer the education in their products so that those that support those company's products can better support them. Many times, however, you're dealing with real world scenarios vs. what Cisco/Microsoft teaches (though I can't comment too much on Cisco, I can definitely vouch for that on the Microsoft end.)

To say that 'for-profit' is highly sought after is not entirely accurate. I highly recommend that you watch College, Inc., and then get back to this discussion. But to give you the nutshell version, the motives of 'for-profit' schools are the same as any other 'for-profit' entity: TO MAKE MONEY! For-profits, like Capella, UoP, etc., are entities that are owned by publicly traded companies. They only have one goal: to make their shareholders the most amount of money with the least amount of costs.

Now, this isn't to say that non-profits don't do the same thing. However, the biggest difference is that they have no shareholders to answer to. Whatever money a non-profit makes goes back into the institution. They don't have to answer to shareholders.

The reason UoP has 200,000+ students is because a good majority of them (and this will be shown to you in College, Inc.) have tried to go the regular college route, but could not get in. The reason why UoP can get away with Harvard-like tuition for community college students is because UoP forced them to get federal loans that couldn't be paid back. Between that, and the very scrupulous practices that their enrollment counselers were doing. For example, many people were enrolling to UoP and getting loans. But instead of getting an education, they were just getting the overpayments, pocketing it (which amounted to a few hundred dollars or a couple of grand), and never dealing with the coursework. Meanwhile, UoP was getting the tuition, courtesy of the Federal Government and pocketing that. The only reason why for-profits are still around is because with all that money those companies got to pocket, they have formed a powerful special interest lobby.

So yes, I'll get back to my original point...if someone (like myself) wants a quality online education, at an affordable cost, there are MANY legitimate alternatives to UoP and other for-profit models. One does not need a for-profit school to obtain a quality, online education.

I'll say this much though. The one GOOD thing the for-profits did was actually prove that an online model can work for working adults like myself. That's why a lot of state schools are embracing the online model. Unfortunately, many tenured professors are trying to block the progress and keep the status quo the status quo. However, I think between students and university administrations, those folks can be defeated.

erpadmin wrote: »

The reason UoP has 200,000+ students is because a good majority of them (and this will be shown to you in College, Inc.) have tried to go the regular college route, but could not get in.

Why couldent they get in? Most two year community colleges have open admissions policies. If you have a high school diploma and the money to pay for the degree, thats all you need. Community colleges sometimes dont even require you take the SAT or ACT exam. Granted there are some community schools that are more selective, but most open their doors wide open to everyone.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I do not want to take an online class unless there is some really extra special reason why I should. I have a pretty negative opinion when it comes to online schooling, I feel that you dont obtain any real experience taking classes online. At least when taking classes at a physical location you have access to the instructor, learning resource center, tutors if need be, and most important, you do real labs with real equipment.

So here is my problem. There are only a few schools in my area that offer a 4-year program in anything IT related. The two major state sponsored schools only offer a B.S. in CS. I really dont like programming, I like to do things that are hands on, not sit in a cubical all day. I really do not like repeat jobs that never change (same ****, different day type jobs.) No thanks. I prefer things like LAN/WAN admin, hardware installation, help desk support for networks managed by the technician, customer premises troubleshooting, ect. So it seems like a B.S in ISS or ISN is more for me.

So that limits my choices further. There is UoP that offers a B.S. in ISS and ISN in my area. There is Remington College and Heald that offer an A.S in ISS, but I want a bachelors, so that really only leaves me with UoP or either of the two state sponsored colleges. There is no question the state sponsored colleges are probably better, but once again, they only offer computer science. The degree program they offer also has a pretty silly and irrelevant class listing which requires me to take some 21 credits of math including two full years of calculus, differential equations and liner math. Come on, no one uses that crap unless your an engineer or high level programmer. So those are kind of my choices. WGU has an attractive website, but its still an online degree and every time I think of an online degree I pretty much assume we are basically talking about reading lots of books online that you could probably just buy on eBay and study yourself. Is one online school really any different than any other online school? Sure in some ways it probably is, but in the end you are just reading lots of online text and completing online assignments which is common to all online schools. Maybe I am wrong, if so, please correct me.

Some people mentioned UoP has insane costs and aggressive recruitment tactics. I agree the cost is insane, if it was not for the fact that I have a free ride for my entire degree, I would not go there. But when I compare them to the two largest state sponsored undergrad and grad schools in the area, they arnt actually that much more expensive. All of the major schools in my area charge $15-20k per [full calendar] year. As far as lies and aggressive recruitment goes, well I think thats really a campus specific thing. The campus I attended dident really try to get me to join. The adviser I have been speaking with has been honest with me so far. She does not really pressure me to join, she leaves it up to me. So I dont think anyone can make a blanket statement saying that ALL UoP campuses offer **** education and ALL UoP campuses lie to their students and have aggressive recruiting tactics. I think how good an education a school provides is ultimately a function of how caring and knowledgeable the chairmen and professors of the programs you are taking are.

This year I toured ten ITT Tech facilities in California. I met with the chair of the IT program for ever school. I noticed that some dident give a crap, and all the students walking around seemed like idoits, and I noticed other chairs were deeply committed to teaching and offered special extracurricular IT related programs that none of the other ITT Techs offered. So although they were all IIT Tech schools, some were clearly superior that others. I am not trying to rifle support for for-profit schools or anything, I just think that how good a for profit school is depends on the specific campus you are attending.

Ultimately this is what my resume will look like when I finish my bachelors degree:

- Four years experience working tier IIA/III support for the US Navy (active duty), two as a supervisor, two as a technician (2007-2011)
- Two years experience doing the same thing above for the Navy Reserves (part time) (2012-2014)
- B.S in ISS from, lets say UoP for now. (2012-late 2015)
- Active security clearance (likely TS/SCI, but maybe secret depending on a few things).

So my though train is that even if I go to a place like UoP, which some people clearly dont care for, having a degree from any real accredited institution is still going to be better than having no degree at all, even if UoP truly does suck. Am I right?
Thanks for your time and for responding to my questions.

Novalith478

benbuiltpc wrote: »

I generally agree with this, and personally decided to avoid UoP and other schools (Capella, Kaplan, etc.) for these reasons amongst others. But, I think it's notable (and perhaps faulty logic) how our view of 'for profit' equates to sub-par education, especially given the environment that us techies thrive in.

We've decided that when it comes to certification, 'for-profit' is just fine; highly sought after, in fact. We trust that Cisco, Microsoft, etc. offer the best education when it comes to their respective products and we don't question or judge their business models. What makes a school different? Are their motives less pure?

Here we go...

Valsacar

UoP no-go, but as others have said you have experience and a clearance, get to work now and go to school on your own time. Capella actually has a pretty good reputation, even though it's a for-profit, some big company's (such as mine, GDIT) partner with them.

You won't have that active clearance if you're not using it, so unless you go reserves/guard you should jump on a job requiring it as soon as possible.

powerfool

benbuiltpc wrote: »

I generally agree with this, and personally decided to avoid UoP and other schools (Capella, Kaplan, etc.) for these reasons amongst others. But, I think it's notable (and perhaps faulty logic) how our view of 'for profit' equates to sub-par education, especially given the environment that us techies thrive in.

We've decided that when it comes to certification, 'for-profit' is just fine; highly sought after, in fact. We trust that Cisco, Microsoft, etc. offer the best education when it comes to their respective products and we don't question or judge their business models. What makes a school different? Are their motives less pure?

You are absolutely right. For-profit? Great idea... they aren't any different than schools that are run by states for private "not-for-profit" schools in that regards... they are looking for profit. Not-for-profit just means that profits aren't paid out to shareholders, it doesn't mean that people don't have incentives (I dunno, like salary increases or bonuses) for making profit.

The problem is the market that these for-profit schools typically go after... folks that probably should reconsider going to college... and that is the problem. Now, these people probably don't have many other options, and I normally wouldn't care, but these same folks are getting financial aid money that comes from tax money... which I have a lot of problems with (regardless of the individuals or the schools involved).

Actually, financial aid money is the root problem here and is the primary cause for the drastic increases in tuition each year. These schools are just capitalizing on that. Want to truly fix the problems with these schools, and ALL schools, for that matter? Get financial aid under control... and maybe even eliminate grants and subsidized student loans. Once folks have to start making cost conscious decisions about school, they will auto correct the situation, more often than not.

powerfool

I forgot to mention one important factor about doing an Information Systems major. I believe I mentioned that this is a business degree, 99 times out of 100, which is good... you will get lots of exposure to concepts that are very important for any working person, really. However, business schools are usually light in their requirements for mathematics and science. For instance, I only had to take Finite Mathematics and Statistics and any 4 credit hour science course (I believe many folks to a pretty lightweight course). I did take Finite, but I also took Trig and Calculus (hoped to take Physics, but I couldn't get it to work into my course schedule), and then I took an energy resources course (which was a combination of geology, chemistry, and physics).

Make sure you place some higher standards for yourself in those courses. It will keep more doors open to you for grad school, if you ever decide to go that route (something you really can't cross off the list ever... some people go back in later life). Plus, academic snobs can be put in their place (like my brother-in-law that jabs at my "business degree" until I remind him that I took a more rigorous calculus course than he did).

SPL Tech

thalador wrote: »

Hi there. To the OP: Avoid UoP at all costs. I spent a good portion of the last 6 years taking classes there. They cost around $1900 per class and are 5 weeks long which means you learn nothing. I have signed up with WGU and will start in February. As for which facet of IT to go into, I would focus on security. I have worked with OS's for 20 years, on the infrastructure side now and it is a dead end. If you have aspirations of moving up into an executive role someday they never come from infrastructure, it is usually applications or security.

If I may ask, if you thought UoP was so bad, why did you go to school there for six years?