Do I need a BSc in order to pursue IT?

Novalith478

I am new to this forum, and it seems to be a pretty active and helpful community so I thought I'd ask this question here. I am an 18 year old undergrad student (first year). I have been good at computers all my life. I know the Windows OS in and out (literally, I read the A+ study guide and didn't learn anything new), and I am getting my A+ soon. My mom runs a small business and I did all the IT for her, networking, PC building/support, wireless access, BlackBerry and email configuration, web design, etc. I would happily do certifications (CCNA/MCSE/other vendor certs, I love the content in those) and I will do them in the next 2-3 years. There is one fallback though. I am not particularly knowledgeable in math or sciences. I took them in high school, and I hated my teachers, but I never found it particularly interesting either. Maybe I was uninspired, but I usually got B's or C's in my math in science courses. I stopped taking them, and now in university I am in all liberal arts courses. My question is: should I pursue a BSc degree in computer science? I am at the University of Toronto, and I was looking at the course calendar for comp-sci, and it seems all theoretical, with Bioinformatics courses and Statistics and Math courses throughout all 4 years (they are mandatory), with some programming. I don't really enjoy maths or sciences, but if it is absolutely necessary I'll have to take them. It would mean taking summer courses and working my ass off for about 2 years to catch up. Right now I am in Arts courses, and was originally planning to pursue a BA degree, and then go to college and get my diploma in IT/Computer systems. But it seems all the jobs I look for on Monster say that they need BSc in Computer Science. Which one is better/more worth it? In my opinion, I don't see how learning all kinds of maths, biology, and statistics will help in real world application, because I really want nothing to do with theoretical computing or research. That being said I know math is key in computers and I am not avoiding it completely, I just don't want to be doing theoretical stuff. Your input is greatly appreciated!

Everyone

While a lot of job listings say they want someone with a BS in Computer Science "or related field", some don't really care if you have a degree at all, as long as you have the experience they're looking for. Out of those that do care, most only care that you have a degree. Those that really truly care that your degree is exactly a BS in Computer Science, are rare.

You're going to have to take some math, no matter what type of degree you get. You may look into an Information Systems degree, usually not as much math required and still IT related. Often listed as "Management Information Systems" or "Business Information Systems". Computer Science degrees tend to be heavily programming oriented, better for someone looking to get into Hardware or Software Development. Information Systems Degrees are more Business oriented, better for people who want to do IT support/admin/engineering work.

Novalith478

Everyone wrote: »

While a lot of job listings say they want someone with a BS in Computer Science "or related field", some don't really care if you have a degree at all, as long as you have the experience they're looking for. Out of those that do care, most only care that you have a degree. Those that really truly care that your degree is exactly a BS in Computer Science, are rare.

You're going to have to take some math, no matter what type of degree you get. You may look into an Information Systems degree, usually not as much math required and still IT related. Often listed as "Management Information Systems" or "Business Information Systems". Computer Science degrees tend to be heavily programming oriented, better for someone looking to get into Hardware or Software Development. Information Systems Degrees are more Business oriented, better for people who want to do IT support/admin/engineering work.

Thanks for the input. Obviously I know math will be required, that's a given, I just don't want to be doing it forever (because I really find it kind of pointless at times).

Thanks for the advice though.

Tackle

Agreed with Everyone.

I do not have a BS, I've never had anyone say anything negative about it during interviews.
If I were you, I'd look for some part time computer related work if you can handle it along with college. It will set you above the rest that you graduate with.

I didn't go the Computer Science route because I'm not real into math either.

Novalith478

LucasMN wrote: »

Agreed with Everyone.

I do not have a BS, I've never had anyone say anything negative about it during interviews.
If I were you, I'd look for some part time computer related work if you can handle it along with college. It will set you above the rest that you graduate with.

I didn't go the Computer Science route because I'm not real into math either.

That was exactly my plan. I want to get my A+ next month, and then start working on my CCNA/MCSE while working an entry level IT/Support job at Staples or TigerDirect.

Everyone

IIRC, any Information Systems BS programs I've looked at didn't require math beyond the 100 level. All degrees require that level of math as a general education credit.

erpadmin

I didn't have a Bachelors degree in anything when I started IT a little over 14 years ago (professionally). I had some college, and that was enough for every employer I had. However, when it came time for moving up...I went as far as I could go...which was why a year and a half ago, I started the WGU program. I just finished my program this past Sunday. My main point though was I didn't get a BS to keep my job in IT...but if I ever wanted to move, I know it can only help. What I would suggest since you hate math (because Discrete Structures will probably kill you....) is to major in something you do like. Then you can always go for an MS in Information Systems at some point (no math as others have said.)

Novalith478

Everyone wrote: »

IIRC, any Information Systems BS programs I've looked at didn't require math beyond the 100 level. All degrees require that level of math as a general education credit.

Unfortunately we don't have that here at U of T (to my knowledge). It's a college degree thing.

Everyone

Novalith478 wrote: »

Unfortunately we don't have that here at U of T (to my knowledge). It's a college degree thing.

There's more than 1 college out there you know.

veritas_libertas

Do you need a BS to be successful in IT? No, do you need it to keep moving up in IT? Probably, but not always. It really depends on what you want to do. In the world of IT a CCNA or MCSE can take you places if you can prove yourself.

If you don't want to complete a BS than don't do it. Instead focus on certifications. Some people just don't have the will to complete a degree and are just wasting money. I have no idea how important a degree is for IT in Canada, but here in the states it all depends on the employer, though it is becoming a more common requirement.

One last thought, have you consider just getting a BS in Business?

WillTech105

From my exp, not having a Bachelors hurts you in searching for a job (in the early years).

Once your 5-7+ years into the field no one cares. However, when you are starting out (or at least when I did) employers/recruiters DID make it a habit of verifing that I did indeed have a bachelors. Just my 2c

Novalith478

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Do you need a BS to be successful in IT? No, do you need it to keep moving up in IT? Probably, but not always. It really depends on what you want to do. In the world of IT a CCNA or MCSE can take you places if you can prove yourself.

If you don't want to complete a BS than don't do it. Instead focus on certifications. Some people just don't have the will to complete a degree and are just wasting money. I have no idea how important a degree is for IT in Canada, but here in the states it all depends on the employer, though it is becoming a more common requirement.

One last thought, have you consider just getting a BS in Business?

Here business degrees aren't BSc, they're BComm degrees. It's not that I don't have the will to do a Bachelor's degree, I will be getting one either way. It's WHAT I will be getting it in, whether getting a BSc in comp-sci is crucial for IT (because as I see it, comp-sci seems to be really theoretical and programming oriented, which to me seems more academic than real-world oriented.

Novalith478

Everyone wrote: »

There's more than 1 college out there you know.

I don't really have the means nor the will to leave Toronto for schooling. Mainly because in Canada U of T is probably the best university, and also because moving away costs a lot more money.

Zartanasaurus

Everyone wrote: »

IIRC, any Information Systems BS programs I've looked at didn't require math beyond the 100 level. All degrees require that level of math as a general education credit.

Generally speaking, all you need is Business Calc and maybe Discrete Math for IS degrees. Of course that could be remarkably different in Canada.

erpadmin

Novalith478 wrote: »

Here business degrees aren't BSc, they're BComm degrees. It's not that I don't have the will to do a Bachelor's degree, I will be getting one either way. It's WHAT I will be getting it in, whether getting a BSc in comp-sci is crucial for IT (because as I see it, comp-sci seems to be really theoretical and programming oriented, which to me seems more academic than real-world oriented.

Yes, that is pretty much my opinion of a CompSci degree as well. However, to do regular IT work, you don't NEED a CompSci degree. There isn't anything IT related that you can't learn on the job. Which is why many of us will advocate obtaining a nice helpdesk/desktop support job for a couple of years and then move up to server admin (perhaps as a junior role.)

Novalith478

erpadmin wrote: »

Yes, that is pretty much my opinion of a CompSci degree as well. However, to do regular IT work, you don't NEED a CompSci degree. There isn't anything IT related that you can't learn on the job. Which is why many of us will advocate obtaining a nice helpdesk/desktop support job for a couple of years and then move up to server admin (perhaps as a junior role.)

Excellent, thank you very much for your help. I appreciate it, there aren't very many people to talk for advice about this and you guys have been great.

FloOz

im doing a bs in csit currently and the only math i had to take is discrete structures 1 and 2. and they both sucked lol. i also had to take 4 computer programming languages. the rest was IT classes and other core classes like writing, history etc...

Valsacar

Novalith478 wrote: »

Here business degrees aren't BSc, they're BComm degrees. It's not that I don't have the will to do a Bachelor's degree, I will be getting one either way. It's WHAT I will be getting it in, whether getting a BSc in comp-sci is crucial for IT (because as I see it, comp-sci seems to be really theoretical and programming oriented, which to me seems more academic than real-world oriented.

Not trying to be rude, but I think you still have a bit of learning to do. Saying programming is academic and not real-world shows that you have very little understanding of the IT field. For example, my office (full range IT support, over 90 people) the following use programming:

Help Desk (scripting)
Security Firewalls (scripting)
Security IA (scripting)
Security Remidation (scripting)
Security (every single section of it) (scripting)
Integration Lab (scripting and full programming)
Sysad (scripting)
Netad (scripting)
Web Development (scripting and full programming)
VTC/VoiP (scripting)
DB Admin (scripting and full programming)
Requirements (scripting)
Change Management (scripting)

I'm pretty sure you get the point, EVERY aspect of IT has applications for those theoretical concepts and programming.

Novalith478

Valsacar wrote: »

Not trying to be rude, but I think you still have a bit of learning to do. Saying programming is academic and not real-world shows that you have very little understanding of the IT field. For example, my office (full range IT support, over 90 people) the following use programming:

Help Desk (scripting)
Security Firewalls (scripting)
Security IA (scripting)
Security Remidation (scripting)
Security (every single section of it) (scripting)
Integration Lab (scripting and full programming)
Sysad (scripting)
Netad (scripting)
Web Development (scripting and full programming)
VTC/VoiP (scripting)
DB Admin (scripting and full programming)
Requirements (scripting)
Change Management (scripting)

I'm pretty sure you get the point, EVERY aspect of IT has applications for those theoretical concepts and programming.

No no I understand that. I didn't mean it as if I'm not going to do any programming whatsoever, I meant academic in the sense of developing applications, writing application suites/operating systems from scratch, etc.

Sorry if I was unclear.

Novalith478

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have one more question.

Would I need a BSc in order to pursue an IT Masters degree? I did some research, and it looks like Masters IT degrees in Canada are almost non-existent, so I might have to do it online.

Turgon

Valsacar wrote: »

Not trying to be rude, but I think you still have a bit of learning to do. Saying programming is academic and not real-world shows that you have very little understanding of the IT field. For example, my office (full range IT support, over 90 people) the following use programming:

Help Desk (scripting)
Security Firewalls (scripting)
Security IA (scripting)
Security Remidation (scripting)
Security (every single section of it) (scripting)
Integration Lab (scripting and full programming)
Sysad (scripting)
Netad (scripting)
Web Development (scripting and full programming)
VTC/VoiP (scripting)
DB Admin (scripting and full programming)
Requirements (scripting)
Change Management (scripting)

I'm pretty sure you get the point, EVERY aspect of IT has applications for those theoretical concepts and programming.

Absolutley. Plus some of the best network pros I have worked with have come from strong programming backgrounds back in the day. My Masters in IT covered a lot of theoretical concepts that have helped me in my career. You should learn algorithms, programming languages, ERD theory even if you hate it and suck at it.

Valsacar

Novalith478 wrote: »

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have one more question.

Would I need a BSc in order to pursue an IT Masters degree? I did some research, and it looks like Masters IT degrees in Canada are almost non-existent, so I might have to do it online.

Almost all MS programs I've seen for IT related have required either a BS in an IT related field, or a BS in anything with some proof of IT background (specific certifications, having to take some extra classes or tests offered at the school, etc). It varies by school, but almost always there's a way for non-IT BS holders to get in, but I've never seen one that takes any BA/BS without some extra requirement.

vinbuck

Degrees are always helpful but matter most for those with little to no experience or those hoping to more into the management/business side. If you're a strong tech and have the project experience and certs to prove it, then you can write your own ticket without one. If you want to do more that herd packets or servers one day then it's helpful to get an IT focused MBA. It also depends on your fianancial situation, where do those dollars need to go to give you the most bang for your buck?

The trick is to figure out what kind of IT you want to be in and start laying the foundation for that career path.

Valsacar

I can agree with vinbuck, with some exceptions. For example, I used my GI Bill to pay for my BS and my company is paying for my MS. Having the MS isn't going to hurt, and since it's costing me nothing there's no reason not to do it.

If you're paying for yourself, then yeah you need to be looking at most bang for your buck and certs are normally it. Of course, there are always schools like WGU where you can get the certs and the degree (or those like Excelsior that give you credits for the certs).

Novalith478

vinbuck wrote: »

Degrees are always helpful but matter most for those with little to no experience or those hoping to more into the management/business side. If you're a strong tech and have the project experience and certs to prove it, then you can write your own ticket without one. If you want to do more that herd packets or servers one day then it's helpful to get an IT focused MBA. It also depends on your fianancial situation, where do those dollars need to go to give you the most bang for your buck?

The trick is to figure out what kind of IT you want to be in and start laying the foundation for that career path.

Yeah I guess you're right. The only thing with the "certification route" is that I feel like it won't be enough. But we'll see. I don't want to be in management or business, I know that for sure.

Might as well get started on my certs early.

veritas_libertas

Novalith478 wrote: »

Yeah I guess you're right. The only thing with the "certification route" is that I feel like it won't be enough. But we'll see. I don't want to be in management or business, I know that for sure.

Might as well get started on my certs early.

There are plenty of TE members without degrees, or only a little college that are Network Administrators, etc. College/University is not for everyone.

Novalith478

veritas_libertas wrote: »

There are plenty of TE members without degrees, or only a little college that are Network Administrators, etc. College/University is not for everyone.

I will still be getting a BA, but I will start working on my certs ASAP.

Valsacar

Some of the highest paid guys in my office don't have degrees. Certs and experience are the most bang for your buck, unless of course someone else is paying your tuition.

The basic 3 (A+, Network+, Security+) are generally enough to get your foot in the door (something along the lines of a low level help desk position). Toss in some MS (the desktop support ones are pretty easy) and/or CCENT/CCNA to stand out a little more.

Also make sure, since you said you still want a BS (BA is for arts, computers fall into the science side) pick a school that will recognize your certifications to waive some coursework. Excelsior, WGU and Capella are three I know off the top of my head that do that.

Novalith478

Valsacar wrote: »

Some of the highest paid guys in my office don't have degrees. Certs and experience are the most bang for your buck, unless of course someone else is paying your tuition.

The basic 3 (A+, Network+, Security+) are generally enough to get your foot in the door (something along the lines of a low level help desk position). Toss in some MS (the desktop support ones are pretty easy) and/or CCENT/CCNA to stand out a little more.

Also make sure, since you said you still want a BS (BA is for arts, computers fall into the science side) pick a school that will recognize your certifications to waive some coursework. Excelsior, WGU and Capella are three I know off the top of my head that do that.

I know, I'm getting my BA instead of a BS. I don't have it in me to do a BS and to be quite honest if I can go the cert route I don't see why I should have to.