And IT gets a bad rap for dumping...

jmasterj206

Doctor's do it too.

Exclusive: Doctors cheated on exams - CNN.com

I don't get why people can't just learn the material.

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RobertKaucher

With Dr.s I can understand the urge to **** a little more, now I am not saying that I excuse it - just understand. They have tons of debt in student loans and that is a lot of preassure. Something to give them an edge when they are working/studying nearly 80 hrs a week is certainly going to be welcome - even if it is unethical. Likely they would see the importance of ethics in their patient relationship. Not so much for a test, I guess.

Tackle

RobertKaucher wrote: »

With Dr.s I can understand the urge to **** a little more, now I am not saying that I excuse it - just understand. They have tons of debt in student loans and that is a lot of preassure. Something to give them an edge when they are working/studying nearly 80 hrs a week is certainly going to be welcome - even if it is unethical. Likely they would see the importance of ethics in their patient relationship. Not so much for a test, I guess.

I am still $34,000 in debt from student loans after paying on them for 1.5 years. I worked full time while in college. I did not **** to pass. I felt the pressure, but knew that I needed to know the material.

It's all about your personal ethics.

RobertKaucher

LucasMN wrote: »

I am still $34,000 in debt from student loans after paying on them for 1.5 years. I worked full time while in college. I did not **** to pass. I felt the pressure, but knew that I needed to know the material.

It's all about your personal ethics.

Now more than tripple that amount!

Tackle

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Now more than tripple that amount!

I don't even want to think about it! That's a scarrry thought. I can't look it up at the moment, but I'm sure starting wage in IT vs a Dr. is going to be a quite a bit lower, making it more relative.

Dr. with 90k in debt probably starts out making 50k+ a year, whereas entry IT is around 30k.

Never the less, cheaters gonna ****.

erpadmin

First of all, let me clarify that I don't condone cheating at all--Especially in IT!

Having said that, if one has to choose between a dumping IT professional and a dumping doctor...I would rather deal with the dumping IT professional. That guy isn't going to be the difference between actual life or death.

swild

LucasMN wrote: »

cheaters gonna ****.

Exactly.

RobertKaucher wrote: »

With Dr.s I can understand the urge to **** a little more, now I am not saying that I excuse it - just understand. They have tons of debt in student loans and that is a lot of preassure. Something to give them an edge when they are working/studying nearly 80 hrs a week is certainly going to be welcome - even if it is unethical. Likely they would see the importance of ethics in their patient relationship. Not so much for a test, I guess.

Gotta disagree with ya on this. I have worked with doctors while I was in healthcare IT and I gotta say that those that violate HIPPA policy are the same ones that ****. On exams or on spouses, it makes no difference. There is a doctor that I was around that had her license revoked because she was high on coke during an operation. 3 years later, she now makes $145k as a consultant to the state board of disability determination. She's not practicing, so she doesn't need a license.
That nuisance aside, I have learned that when it comes to ethics, there are no shades of gray. You can't **** on a test and then expect me to trust you with my life or even my dog. The laws aren't near as strict for veterinarians. They can exhibit gross negligence leading to the death of an animal and the absolute worst thing that can happen (in this state at least) is they will get a misdemeanor with probation. After which they relocate and start over until they do it again.
/end rant

It takes a lot to earn my respect as a professional. Life-encompassing ethics is a big part.

tpatt100

Not even sure there is enough of a financial incentive to become a doctor unless you come from a wealthy family. I was reading that more hospitals are already stretching nursing too thin but doctors are even shorter in supply

N2IT

erpadmin wrote: »

First of all, let me clarify that I don't condone cheating at all--Especially in IT!

Having said that, if one has to choose between a dumping IT professional and a dumping doctor...I would rather deal with the dumping IT professional. That guy isn't going to be the difference between actual life or death.

Exactly.

What's your thoughts about licenses and certifications? Do you think cheating to get your license to practice is more severe than certifications?

I enjoy your replies they are thoughtout and insightful

DevilWAH

erpadmin wrote: »

First of all, let me clarify that I don't condone cheating at all--Especially in IT!

Having said that, if one has to choose between a dumping IT professional and a dumping doctor...I would rather deal with the dumping IT professional. That guy isn't going to be the difference between actual life or death.

errrr I would not be so sure, a mistake by an IT person on one of our client networks, causes a major outage of there systems, leaving a number of ships with out any guidance in the middle of a storm in polar waters, and with no way to view any weather updates. Coastguard and rescues service were on standby while that one was fixed.

Just like in IT, Brain dumpers are never going to get to the top of there fields, I don't expect to see a brain surgeon any time soon who has brain dumped, and even if he had, there is so many really world testing to go though under supervision that he is going to get pulled up long before he is allowed to preform alone.

Im not saying either one is better, but both are in positions of responsibility and both cant be in positions where either directly or indirectly they can affect the lives of people, it is always completely wrong to **** you way to a postiton of responsibility.

NOC-Ninja

Lets say cheating is cheating. Does that change that their doctors/licensed?

Its tough to be a doctor. You need lots of money and connections inside univ to get in. Even with connections, There are students which are sons of well known doctors that are unable to get into the program after graduating bio.

Furthermore, you cant compare our tuition to doctors. Doctors tuition here in cali cost $300k to $500k + $30k B.S. in bio.

My brother in laws dad's office/practice makes $350k a year.

EDIT: let me be a devils advocate here. Our whole system is corrupt. Doesnt that count as cheaters? Coming from a guy getting a traffic ticket and him calling a cop friend to get away from that ticket. Politicians getting money from corporate so that they can work around the law. A teenager that works at the cinema , who lets his friends get in for free. List goes on........

erpadmin

DevilWAH wrote: »

errrr I would not be so sure, a mistake by an IT person on one of our client networks, causes a major outage of there systems, leaving a number of ships with out any guidance in the middle of a storm in polar waters, and with no way to view any weather updates. Coastguard and rescues service were on standby while that one was fixed.

Just like in IT, Brain dumpers are never going to get to the top of there fields, I don't expect to see a brain surgeon any time soon who has brain dumped, and even if he had, there is so many really world testing to go though under supervision that he is going to get pulled up long before he is allowed to preform alone.

Im not saying either one is better, but both are in positions of responsibility and both cant be in positions where either directly or indirectly they can affect the lives of people, it is always completely wrong to **** you way to a postiton of responsibility.

I knew the second I hit "post" there would be someone that would make an IT professional a bearer of ACTUAL life or death.

I welcome it though.

For the most part, an IT professional isn't going to directly impact a person's life. FOR-THE-MOST-PART.

For the most part, a doctor IS going to directly impact a person's life. A radiologist MORE so...those X-Ray readings have to be super on point, or else the wrong diagnosis will be given. A lump can be a benign, non-cancerous mass, or a life-threatening cancer. You get either of those readings wrong, someone dies.

As I said, I don't condone cheating whether it's done by an IT pro or a doctor. However, an IT pro isn't going to, for the most part, affect someone's life. Mission Critical applications could perhaps get messed up, and maybe that will indirectly cause some harm. But a doctor who has to **** and will be charged with providing care, will have a more devastating impact.

N2IT wrote: »

Exactly.

What's your thoughts about licenses and certifications? Do you think cheating to get your license to practice is more severe than certifications?

I enjoy your replies they are thoughtout and insightful

I think a coke w---e performing surgery on me would be more severe than anyone cheating to get a license. LMAO.

Barring that, if you have to **** to get a license and this pertains to medicine...I think that can be more severe yes. Any other profession, such as accountants, architects, etc., would pretty much be like those who **** in IT. Their work will then speak for itself. I guess the thing could be said about doctors...but still, someone who cheats from the medical profession should be extremely suspect.

SteveLord

Since I actually work in a medical board, I can say that applying for a license is not easy, nor quick. Doctors are expected to be perfect, and we receive all kinds of complaints ranging from garbage to doing surgery on the wrong leg, to sexual allegations, etc etc. It is not cheap for a doctor to defend himself. Fines they receive are not cheap. Mandated drug testing, chaperones, etc are not pleasant. These drag on for years and years. Public discipline is often found in the daily newspaper as a story...and is posted online for the public to look up at any time.

Would you like public information on your IT screwups? Or have to answer before a board of your peers in person? I think not.

swild

SteveLord wrote: »

Would you like public information on your IT screwups? Or have to answer before a board of your peers in person? I think not.

I would personally love ANYTHING that brings accountability to any profession. There will always be nutbags that cry wolf, but that is to be expected.

To answer your question: Yes. I will and do take responsibility for my screwups and would publicly if it were asked.

ptilsen

LucasMN wrote: »

I am still $34,000 in debt from student loans after paying on them for 1.5 years. I worked full time while in college. I did not **** to pass. I felt the pressure, but knew that I needed to know the material.

It's all about your personal ethics.

The difference is the breadth and depth of the material is far greater than that in IT, at least outside of deep CS topics. Succeeding in medical school is a lot more challenging than succeeding in IT. Moreover, you can't fail medical school and then get a job with that. Conversely, you can drop of an IT or any college degree and still get a decent enough job.

I think they're very different fields, and almost everything about medicine is higher pressure. I'm not saying I excuse the behavior at all. In fact, ethically, I feel cheating in med school is much worse than cheating in IT. No one dies if you **** in IT (usually).

Turgon

swild wrote: »

Exactly.

Gotta disagree with ya on this. I have worked with doctors while I was in healthcare IT and I gotta say that those that violate HIPPA policy are the same ones that ****. On exams or on spouses, it makes no difference. There is a doctor that I was around that had her license revoked because she was high on coke during an operation. 3 years later, she now makes $145k as a consultant to the state board of disability determination. She's not practicing, so she doesn't need a license.
That nuisance aside, I have learned that when it comes to ethics, there are no shades of gray. You can't **** on a test and then expect me to trust you with my life or even my dog. The laws aren't near as strict for veterinarians. They can exhibit gross negligence leading to the death of an animal and the absolute worst thing that can happen (in this state at least) is they will get a misdemeanor with probation. After which they relocate and start over until they do it again.
/end rant

It takes a lot to earn my respect as a professional. Life-encompassing ethics is a big part.

This sounds like a truly terrible state of affairs.

Turgon

erpadmin wrote: »

First of all, let me clarify that I don't condone cheating at all--Especially in IT!

Having said that, if one has to choose between a dumping IT professional and a dumping doctor...I would rather deal with the dumping IT professional. That guy isn't going to be the difference between actual life or death.

I realise what you are saying, but a lot of doctors are far from life and death. So are many IT professionals. But air traffic control and military spring to mind. There are many other examples. A botched IT infrastructure can kill in extreme examples. Let's not forget the world is increasingly run on apps now..

erpadmin

Turgon wrote: »

I realise what you are saying, but a lot of doctors are far from life and death. So are many IT professionals. But air traffic control and military spring to mind. There are many other examples. A botched IT infrastructure can kill in extreme examples. Let's not forget the world is increasingly run on apps now..

Cheating happens everywhere, no doubt about it. But I'd like to think that with air traffic controllers, there is some sort of regimen that will weed out those who aren't up to snuff.

And while do I get what you are saying, I find it hard to be convinced that an IT professional is going to be more critical to a person's life than a doctor. I'd like to personally believe that we are, but seriously...yes, I remember that McAfee debacle that happened about a year or so ago (my shop was actually affected by that) where they sent a bad update and people died because they couldn't get admitted to hospitals, though that in itself is another story. Aside from that though, I still have to go back to "for the most part..."

petedude

jmasterj206 wrote: »

I don't get why people can't just learn the material.

Oh. . . I. . . GET. . it. Much to the same degree as erp, though, I have a hard time with it.

People will always, ALWAYS look for shortcuts. Bad part is, unfortunately, that some shortcuts are UNETHICAL and people lack the discipline/foresight to avoid those. In this case, it's likely greed and impatience blinding them more than anything.

SteveLord

swild wrote: »

I would personally love ANYTHING that brings accountability to any profession. There will always be nutbags that cry wolf, but that is to be expected.

To answer your question: Yes. I will and do take responsibility for my screwups and would publicly if it were asked.

Right, but we're still talking about a bigger deal here. These doctors lose tons of money in a long drawn out legal battle that mirrors the experience of a criminal trial.

powerfool

erpadmin wrote: »

First of all, let me clarify that I don't condone cheating at all--Especially in IT!

Having said that, if one has to choose between a dumping IT professional and a dumping doctor...I would rather deal with the dumping IT professional. That guy isn't going to be the difference between actual life or death.

Unless you are talking about Healthcare IT. I worked for a hospital system for a while and I have to go into cardiac surgeries and fix computers and printers so that mid-surgery test results could be accessed.... I never thought I would see the inside of someone's chest as an IT person... EYE OPENING!

alan2308

nm, powerfool beat me to it.

swild

SteveLord wrote: »

Right, but we're still talking about a bigger deal here. These doctors lose tons of money in a long drawn out legal battle that mirrors the experience of a criminal trial.

Glad you brought that up. Malpractice suits are rampant. I have had to testify out of court on 3 separate occasions in 2 years on the authenticity of our EMRs. There are people that wait until days before the statute of limitations kicks in before filing suit just so that memories are at their cloudiest. Chances are, if someone dies, you have a decent chance at winning a malpractice suit. This is a primary factor in why our healthcare system is the costliest in the world. Not only do we have to go ridiculously out of our way to protect the doctors from these people, but also we have to help pay for the doctor's malpractice insurance and we all know how much of a racket insurance is. I see doctors and IT professionals as relatively similar professions. The difference in pay is balanced out by the fact that doctors need a ton more insurance than we do.

Yes, they do lose tons of their insurance company's money in long drawn out legal battles. Any doctor without malpractice insurance isn't business savvy enough to be in business by themselves. From my experience, most doctors can't run a business to save their lives, literally. I have seen far too many doctors that live paycheck to paycheck, barely scraping by on $120k a year.

mayhem87

i think the expectations we put on doctors is crazy. we expect them to be the perfect person and know how to cure everything. you can compare this to almost like being the IT guy in a small shop and having to know the in's and out's of every system you touch and even some you don't. i don't know what the tests are like for doctors to pass in order to get their license but i much rather have the doctor that can perform then the doctor that is just book smart. i am sure we all see this in IT as well where someone has a arsenal of certs they can throw around but put them in some pressure and watch them break.

i feel the same way about doctors. i don't care how they got their license as long as they are able to do the job. while operating on the wrong leg or something like that i view as unacceptable, they can only do so much to help make us better. maybe if we took better care of ourselves in the first place you wouldn't be needing the life and death operation? point is they are human just like everyone else and can make mistakes. we tend to forget that when it comes to them.

plus what do you call a doctor that graduates bottom of his class? doctor...

TLeTourneau

alan2308 wrote: »

nm, powerfool beat me to it.

Me too...

swild

mayhem87 wrote: »

maybe if we took better care of ourselves in the first place you wouldn't be needing the life and death operation?

That's like saying if users would just stop clicking on that spam, I wouldn't be having to re-image this machine right now. While fundamentally true, you can't rely on your customers to make your job easier.

DevilWAH

erpadmin wrote: »

And while do I get what you are saying, I find it hard to be convinced that an IT professional is going to be more critical to a person's life than a doctor. I'd like to personally believe that we are, but seriously...yes, I remember that McAfee debacle that happened about a year or so ago (my shop was actually affected by that) where they sent a bad update and people died because they couldn't get admitted to hospitals, though that in itself is another story. Aside from that though, I still have to go back to "for the most part..."

I think Indirectly many people can have more of a life and death decisions that doctors. With Doctors it is generally a one to one. Where the Doctor in the most part will only affect the indivual theyare treating.

On the other hand an IT team in a hospital is in charge of keeping all the systems on line, or on an oil rig keeping safety system in order, or even a business the IT systems are what keeps its running smoothly. Things like Powerfull mentions have a directly inpact on people lives, but how about an aid agency, IT stems fail, supplies to a refuge camp are delayed, and people die! IF the IT systems fail because an IT person makes a mistake due to brain dumping and not knowing how to do this, are they any less at fault for causing death than a Doctor?

GAngel

Is everyone on this board 8 years old all of a sudden?

DevilWAH

nope, i don't never want to get that old

colemic

That's an interesting article, and 'braindumping' is not the only issue - almost every single person interviewed felt that it was a necessity, and covered antiquated material. Their exam needs to be restructured to discourage dumping, and to be more relevant to their profession. Not excusing dumping at all, but it's not like these people are trying to do the bare minimum of work to pass; they are simply trying to pass... the exam, in its current format, is part of the problem as well.

powerfool

There was some statistic out there that I cannot recall... it really doesn't matter how specific it is, just illustrates a point. To paraphrase:

90% of all patients a doctor sees will be fine if he does nothing at all.