Certs for a CIO/CISO

UnixGuy

N2IT wrote: »

Paul I am really surprised that all the CIO's you have seen had intense software backgrounds. I've worked for several fortune 500 companies and the CIO's with those companies have had degrees in Mechanical Engineering to all sorts of business degrees usually Finance or Accounting.

I guess it all depends on the company, there are 500 fortune 500 companies and ~5 is a small sample set. I think the bottom line is in the individual himself. I've seen a CEO of a fortune 500 company only have a bachelors. It just varies to much to stereotype effectively.

The CEOs that I know of all either has Bechlors of engineering or Bachelors of Computer Science.

MeanDrunkR2D2

Unix, he got a degree in Computer Science, then finished up his MBA right out of college.

And true, alot of times it is both.

UnixGuy

MeanDrunkR2D2 wrote: »

Unix, he got a degree in Computer Science, then finished up his MBA right out of college.

And true, alot of times it is both.

That's an excellent success story! Thanks for sharing

MeanDrunkR2D2

Also, to add on, he was a part of a big national frat at Texas Tech, so he really made alot of his connections from the Alumni and frat brothers there. Even with all the bagging on frats that I do, they can be a good thing when it comes to making your name known and to get into those positions.

erpadmin

MeanDrunkR2D2 wrote: »

Even with all the bagging on frats that I do, they can be a good thing when it comes to making your name known and to get into those positions.

That's true...a brother of mine from a big Div 1 school [who I didn't know] posted a job on LinkedIn. Because of that, I was able to informally contact him about the position. The position was not for his group [he was doing it for his colleague] and after speaking with him, told me to apply, so I threw my hat in the ring. It's not a guarantee, of course, but the fact that we have our fraternity as a commonality was a big "leg-up" where I don't need to know someone personally to ask for whatever assistance. The Freemasonry is another such example, and is something I would love to do, but I know I don't have time...while my own national org is based on Masonic rituals, I know I wouldn't have time to commit to joining at this time.

You should save your bagging for local orgs. All a local fraternity/sorority is [to me] a drinking club.

N2IT

Mean and Erp this is absolute fact.

While I went to MSU, a few of my friends went to Mizzou and joined Sigma Chi fraternity (I believe). Anyway one of their brothers, father was a SVP of Energizer. Those that were in the fraternity and in the business school were guarnteed an interview within the company is some capacity.

Just wanted to toss that piece of real world in the mix.

erpadmin

N2IT wrote: »

Mean and Erp this is absolute fact.

While I went to MSU, a few of my friends went to Mizzou and joined Sigma Chi fraternity (I believe). Anyway one of their brothers, father was a SVP of Energizer. Those that were in the fraternity and in the business school were guarnteed an interview within the company is some capacity.

Just wanted to toss that piece of real world in the mix.

Oh, I've got a few of my own.

One of my brothers got a job at a large financial firm, UBS...you know that Swiss company that had to give up the names of US tax cheats. Anyway, two of our other brothers were able to get jobs with UBS as well through that brother, with what amounted to be a very informal interview process.

My earlier story about fraternal contacts was the first time I ever utilized my fraternity in a job search. In truth, I haven't really networked hard with them, but that changed within the last few years. But fraternal contacts do happen. I can guarantee and promise that. A national org is key though.

petedude

MeanDrunkR2D2 wrote: »

Honestly, its more about your schooling, who you know, and track history if you plan on making a path into a CIO type of position.

My two cents on leadership:
I think it can be taught, but it's not going to flow as easily as it would for someone who's been born with an innate talent for it. As an analogy-- there are tons of writers who learned well via excruciatingly hard work, but it's the people born with pens in their mouths whose work we tend to exalt and remember.

paul78

N2IT wrote: »

Paul I am really surprised that all the CIO's you have seen had intense software backgrounds. I've worked for several fortune 500 companies and the CIO's with those companies have had degrees in Mechanical Engineering to all sorts of business degrees usually Finance or Accounting.

Yes, I don’t dispute that you are correct.

Remember, I’m only going by my own experience which is primarily in financial services industry – specifically the investment services segment. And I wasn’t necessarily referring to Fortune 500 organizations. While I do currently work for Fortune 500 organization, most of my peer group including myself have a software development background.

N2IT wrote:

I think the bottom line is in the individual them self. I've seen CEO of a fortune 500 company only have a bachelors. It just varies to much to stereotype effectively.

Well said! One of the reasons why I find this thread and this forum in general so interesting – there’s so many ways to get from point A to point Z.

erpadmin wrote:

My earlier story about fraternal contacts was the first time I ever utilized my fraternity in a job search. In truth, I haven't really networked hard with them, but that changed within the last few years.

I’m curious, has fraternal contacts worked for you?

petedude wrote:

My two cents on leadership: I think it can be taught, but it's not going to flow as easily as it would for someone who's been born with an innate talent for it.

That’s a conversation that I sometimes have with my peers when we evaluate leaders. I tend to view leadership as a talent trait versus learned-skill. I do agree that some aspects can be learned – and those individuals can go on to be great managers. A good leader doesn’t necessarily equate a good manager and vice-versa.

Leadership is such a multi-dimensional subject but depending on your criteria of leadership, there’s probably no right or wrong answer.

erpadmin

paul78 wrote: »

I’m curious, has fraternal contacts worked for you?

Well, I never really tried personally until recently (and it's been like almost two decades since I've pledged.) There are a lot of us in the IT field, for sure, but I haven't met any until that one experience I mentioned that worked in the ERP space. The job was also out of state but the spec was pretty much what I do now.

However, since many of my closer brothers have gotten hook ups in the Financial sector. If I was ever interested in taking the Series 7 or 63, I'd only have to make like two phone calls.

discount81

Speaking from a purely education wise perspective, no including the intangibles like personality and connections.
If it is a fortune 500 company, you need an accounting degree of some description.

No company in their right mind is going to hire somebody and put them in charge of a department with a $200million+ annual budget if they don't understand complex financials.

People saying CISSP etc have no idea, there is somebody on staff to deal with security.
CIOs don't get involved in something like that, he will have managers and project managers reporting to him, a CIO puts the right people in place to make sure the numbers work.

UnixGuy

discount81 wrote: »

Speaking from a purely education wise perspective, no including the intangibles like personality and connections.
If it is a fortune 500 company, you need an accounting degree of some description.

....

By accounting degree do you mean that it has to be BSc/MSc in accounting ? or can MBA/MIS be a substitute? How about those who have sales/pre-sales experience (they deal with a lot of numbers) ?

N2IT

Unix I don't want to answer for discount, but I have been in agreement with his thoughts on this matter the whole discussion.

CIO's can have backgrounds in plenty of trades. Engineering, Computer Science, Accounting, Business Admin, Finance. Those are usually the popular ones. Sometimes you see crazy ones like Supply Chain or Stats/Mathematics.

General if they do have an IT bachelors you will see them with some sort of finance/accounting masters. An MBA is all inclusive and can work. But keep in mind that they usually have a lot of experience handling financials. So even if a CIO has a mechanical engineering degree and master in the same trade, he probably has real world financial skills built up from previous positions.

Now COO I've seen way more business heavy on their degrees and a CFO just flat out has accounting and finance. Along with a CMA/CPA. CEO is the kicker I have seen these individuals vary quiet often, still usually business degrees from solid schools.

This is not to say this is 100% true but you'll find it fairly accurate. Even directors and managers handling financials have accounting degrees or something similar. One of my managers had a CS degree for his bachelors but had his MIM and MBA from Washington University top 25 business school, and wasn't even a director yet.

When you are talking businesses you are talking financials and IT folk just don't have the time invested to run the financials. That's why you see a lot of level 3 managers and directors with those degrees we speak of.

****This is just from a fortune 500 company viewpoint. Other small businesses I'm sure do things differently.

UnixGuy

discount81 wrote: »

...
People saying CISSP etc have no idea, there is somebody on staff to deal with security.
CIOs don't get involved in something like that, he will have managers and project managers reporting to him, a CIO puts the right people in place to make sure the numbers work.

CISSP is a security management certification. It's always good to have. Must have if you are the head of the security team..

N2IT

Agreed the security officer or director should have his CISSP along with a strong background in security, physical included. But the CIO (Chief Information Officer) is all about hitting his goals which usually are financially driven.

UnixGuy

Interesting points there N2IT.


Do you think that MBA degrees have enough financial background to start with?

N2IT

I think from a solid program it will fill in A LOT of knowledge gaps. But honestly real world experience is the most important. Even if you have an accounting degree and a MBA, unless you have the experience you will only be give so much room to operate until you have proven you can handle it at that level. Then you move up.

UnixGuy

Excellent inputs! keep your ideas coming

Very informative thread for me

paul78

discount81 wrote: »

Speaking from a purely education wise perspective, no including the intangibles like personality and connections.
If it is a fortune 500 company, you need an accounting degree of some description.

I have only worked for 2 Fortune 500 companies so far but that hasn't been my experience. Are you referring to CIO and CISO roles? Even the business Presidents that I know typically do not have a finance or accounting backgrounds. Of course, that's not to say that I actually know that many -

discount81 wrote: »

No company in their right mind is going to hire somebody and put them in charge of a department with a $200million+ annual budget if they don't understand complex financials.

Again, in my experience, the head of finance or CFO does the financial models but the budget management is always done by the individual accountable for that expense or revenue budget. That is typically not the CEO's job. A budget in the 9 figure range typically is managed by multiple individuals in their own disciplines and depending on how the organization is structured - there would be spending approval limits and guidelines depending on who is spending and approving the dollars.

N2IT wrote:

When you are talking businesses you are talking financials and IT folk just don't have the time invested to run the financials. That's why you see a lot of level 3 managers and directors with those degrees we speak of.

I think you would be surprised by many that do not have finance or accounting formal training. Running a budget isn't a complicated activity for IT managers and other non-finance disciplines. That's what the finance and accounting department are for - everyone on this forum makes a salary and budgets expenses in their daily lifes. It really about the decision on what to spend-on and when to spend - basically about prioritization - that's really the role of a senior IT manager - to decide where/when/how to spend dollars and make a case for it.

At lower levels, even if an individual contributor or IT manager without budget spending authority must have good budgeting skills - financial measurement of success isn't just about the expense or revenue goals, it also involves resource management goals. Resource hours equals real dollars - for example - if an individual contributor is a project manager - that individual should be responsible for forecasting the resource hours budget for their projects - realistically that rarely happens in real-life but some larger organizations to trive for that type of expense management.

paul78

UnixGuy wrote: »

Do you think that MBA degrees have enough financial background to start with?

If you are interested in the topics of financial management - an affordable way to start is to pick up a copy of "The Portable MBA" series. FWIW - That's all the finance training that I have

[edit] The Portable MBA series seemed to have gotten a lot more complicated as a series since I last looked - I was referring to this one - http://www.amazon.com/Portable-MBA-Finance-Accounting/dp/0470481307/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337309302&sr=1-1

UnixGuy

Thanks @Paul78


Today I read this article:
http://afford-anything.com/2012/05/16/prestigious-career/




not directly related to our discussion, but it says something about fancy degrees, money, and ROI.

N2IT

A lot of that tuition cost can/is picked up by the hospital. I'm not saying all, but some can be if you get in with the hospital/health care system.

paul78

UnixGuy wrote: »

not directly related to our discussion, but it says something about fancy degrees, money, and ROI.

The link you shared is an interesting read - especially for me since I do not have the fancy degree or any degree for that matter.

In a sense, it is nominally related - I wonder how many here do aspire to be the CISO, CIO, CEO, President of a business - (and why?) And do folks really believe that all the certs and degrees really do advance careers. I still do believe that a lot has to do with work-ethic and a bit of luck.

UnixGuy

paul78 wrote: »

The link you shared is an interesting read - especially for me since I do not have the fancy degree or any degree for that matter.

In a sense, it is nominally related - I wonder how many here do aspire to be the CISO, CIO, CEO, President of a business - (and why?) And do folks really believe that all the certs and degrees really do advance careers. I still do believe that a lot has to do with work-ethic and a bit of luck.

It's not the piece of paper that gets you to places, it's the knowledge you acquire. The degree is a structured way for you to learn things, and a proof of hard work, and an opportunity for personal and technical growth. Work ethic is essential, and having the right degrees/certs is always a boost.

N2IT

Paul not me lol

I like management but not at that level.

powerfool

Correlation does not equate to causation.

Is it the certifications, degrees, and other credentials, along with what is learned the process, that makes people successful?

Or, is it that people that track towards success choose a path the lends to getting all of the credentials?

I tend to side with the people end of it, and I think that becomes more apparent when you get the anomalies who are successful without the standard track record. They don't need the degree or cert... they are driven, and most of those people get the papers because of that same drive, but some buck the trend.

Which is why I firmly believe that a degree is really just about that piece of paper for career marketability. If I want an education, I can handle that on my own.

MickQ

powerfool wrote: »

Is it the certifications, degrees, and other credentials, along with what is learned the process, that makes people successful?

Like working as a director for Yahoo?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

UnixGuy

powerfool wrote: »

...

Which is why I firmly believe that a degree is really just about that piece of paper for career marketability. If I want an education, I can handle that on my own.

I agree but sometimes you need the opportunity that the degree brings. For example, if it wasn't for my Bachelors degree, I wouldn't have gotten the chance to get my current job. It open doors.

MickQ

Not only that, but depending on the course you do, you will learn things that aren't in the industry certs, or normally taught on the job.

IMO, I think that there should be more apprenticing in jobs. Internships don't really give the same results.

powerfool

I agree, UnixGuy. However, I think that situation has been influenced by all of the people that have decided to go that route. People see others going to college and being successful, so they follow that path. More people go to college... eventually employers pick up on that and make it a requirement or a positive in their job postings. It is like a feedback loop. Nevertheless, we are pretty much in a situation where you need these papers, now. Plus, you can learn in the process... so it certainly isn't a waste.