I.T. in the U.S.

MauriceMoss

Forgive my naiveness.

Do most companies outsource to an "I.T. solutions provider"? I mean, how many of you work directly for the company you are serving? I am trying to leave my current position for another one (bad environment). I was hoping to be directly employed by the company I am providing service to. I want to be on equal footing as the end user. I want leverage for difficult users and not just told to kiss their a** because they are the customer.

For those that are providing I.T. service to another company, what is your relationship with the company? Is it combative? If you don't do X,Y,Z, you will lose the contract etc etc.

My problem is that I love computers/tech/etc but I don't like being treated like sh*t. This is the first time I have actually been in I.T. The environment seems very unstable (one person here today, gone tomorrow).

blargoe

I'm seeing both. Any banks in my area seem to be staffed by contractors mainly, while the typical small-to-mid sized corporations seems to be a mix of contract-to-hire and direct hire, with some using contract labor for staffing specific projects/initiatives.

WafflesAndRootbeer

MauriceMoss wrote: »

Forgive my naiveness.

Do most companies outsource to an "I.T. solutions provider"? I mean, how many of you work directly for the company you are serving? I am trying to leave my current position for another one (bad environment). I was hoping to be directly employed by the company I am providing service to. I want to be on equal footing as the end user. I want leverage for difficult users and not just told to kiss their a** because they are the customer.

For those that are providing I.T. service to another company, what is your relationship with the company? Is it combative? If you don't do X,Y,Z, you will lose the contract etc etc.

My problem is that I love computers/tech/etc but I don't like being treated like sh*t. This is the first time I have actually been in I.T. The environment seems very unstable (one person here today, gone tomorrow).

Let me clarify some things...

1. Since the economy tanked several years ago, pretty much every company and organization has switched to outsourcing their IT needs. They often have a few in-house employees who serve as the token IT folks but they don't do much of anything for the most part except coordinate the various contractors and perform minor tasks.

2. Working for a managed service provider is a horrible thing. You will be treated like ****. That goes without saying. MSPs are a management only company. What that means is "If you're not management, you are a piece of **** and have no worth to the company regardless of how well you do at your job because we can always find someone else to do it." In MSPs, you will get low paychecks, high stress from users who demand you get them whatever they want and fight you every time you deal with them, nutcase managers constantly calling you at random times to piss in your mouth (and they will often go the extra mile to even call you at home in your free time if they really feel like it) or sexually harass you if you are a woman, "team members" coming and going more often than you change your underwear (many MSPs simply recycle workers from temp agencies on three-six month rotations) having to coordinate your work with several different other providers for various tasks (For example, I had to work with three different companies just to install a NIC for a networked laser printer), and you will have to learn to do many things (I was asked to learn how to service copiers and other stuff that I was never ever told I had to bother with when I was being interviewed) that are outside of the logical scope of your work or whatever the company said you were being hired to do.

3. You will never ever have leverage over difficult users nor will you ever be on equal footing no matter who you work for. You are there to lick the head, work the pipe, and swallow the gravy with a smile. That is how things work in today's world.

If you want an easier job, at least on paper at any rate, I suggest you look into getting a support job with one of the local governments.

shodown

Wow who do you work at. I work for a MSP in the Northern VA area and I want to stay away from who ever it is you work for. I work for a MSP and its great. ITs a lot of hardwork, but the pay is very good, the work is interesting and challenging. I will agree with you that customers are a pain in the ass, but its a good job.

WafflesAndRootbeer

shodown wrote: »

Wow who do you work at. I work for a MSP in the Northern VA area and I want to stay away from who ever it is you work for. I work for a MSP and its great. ITs a lot of hardwork, but the pay is very good, the work is interesting and challenging. I will agree with you that customers are a pain in the ass, but its a good job.

CompuCom/Excell Data.

shodown

CompuCom say no more. I've had to work with them on some projects before. They underbid us on a few contracts for a previous employeer. They didn't even have the people with the skills and offered to re hire us at a lower rate. Our PM laughed and pulled us out and got us on new contracts.

WafflesAndRootbeer

I was let go from CompuCom because I went out on a service call where I had to coordinate with a Siemens tech to repair a Xerox printer and the Siemens tech who showed up was working the Compucom contract before I was hired. She left because the team leader, who is a textbook disaster of a manager, had sexually harassed her/tried to force her to have sex with him and then I was given the boot the day after the service call with no explanation from the team leader other than "This is going to be your last week on the contract. We'll pay you til the end of the week but you don't need to bother showing up for work." Then they called me back two months later and wanted to know if I would take the same job but down in Richmond.

nethacker

WafflesAndRootbeer wrote: »

I was let go from CompuCom because I went out on a service call where I had to coordinate with a Siemens tech to repair a Xerox printer and the Siemens tech who showed up was working the Compucom contract before I was hired. She left because the team leader, who is a textbook disaster of a manager, had sexually harassed her/tried to force her to have sex with him and then I was given the boot the day after the service call with no explanation from the team leader other than "This is going to be your last week on the contract. We'll pay you til the end of the week but you don't need to bother showing up for work." Then they called me back two months later and wanted to know if I would take the same job but down in Richmond.

the lady should have reported his a** so he can be convicted.

drumrolfe

I work as a contractor of a contractor providing support to the government. The trick here is to provide outstanding support. It is not necessary to kiss anyone's a**. Maintain your integrity, do the job to the best of you ability, and provide timely customer service.

I don't know what you mean by "wanting to be on equal footing as the end-user". If you provide support to the end-users you will never be on equal footing. You are there to provide them service, not vice versa. However, to answer your question - my relationship with my contracting agency is pretty hands off (I hardly hear from them, they just sign my check). The customer treats me like I am a member of their staff, and the relationship is not combative at all. If X,Y, and Z are not in the contract - we are not required to do it. However, we frequently work outside of the contract as workload allows to foster a better team environment. IMO, your working relationships are what you make of them.

it_consultant

MauriceMoss wrote: »

Forgive my naiveness.

Do most companies outsource to an "I.T. solutions provider"? I mean, how many of you work directly for the company you are serving? I am trying to leave my current position for another one (bad environment). I was hoping to be directly employed by the company I am providing service to. I want to be on equal footing as the end user. I want leverage for difficult users and not just told to kiss their a** because they are the customer.

For those that are providing I.T. service to another company, what is your relationship with the company? Is it combative? If you don't do X,Y,Z, you will lose the contract etc etc.

My problem is that I love computers/tech/etc but I don't like being treated like sh*t. This is the first time I have actually been in I.T. The environment seems very unstable (one person here today, gone tomorrow).

Contracting is pretty brutal in the private sector. If you aren't prepared to wear kevlar under your suits then don't do it. The only reason why I continue to do it is because I have been through all the "don't dos" and by now I have carved a niche for myself. Besides, the pace of work in many IT departments would bore me to tears.

SteveLord

I believe my state typically only does outsourcing/contractors for programming positions.

WafflesAndRootbeer

nethacker wrote: »

the lady should have reported his a** so he can be convicted.

She reported him to the company. She had to leave and went to work for Siemens doing printer repair while he just stayed where he is to this day, managing their regional contracts in this area. Like I said, an MSP is a management only company. He was management and they won't get rid of him unless they are forced to. If you were to look up his name, you'd find it attached to many complaints against the company by both employees and customers who have dealt with his egomania. The thing about CompuCom is that their low-bid/cost-cutting tactics have won them many service contracts, so businesses have no choice but to use them when they are the official choice of the hardware vendors that local businesses and companies are using.

erpadmin

WafflesAndRootbeer wrote: »

She reported him to the company. She had to leave and went to work for Siemens doing printer repair while he just stayed where he is to this day, managing their regional contracts in this area. Like I said, an MSP is a management only company. He was management and they won't get rid of him unless they are forced to. If you were to look up his name, you'd find it attached to many complaints against the company by both employees and customers who have dealt with his egomania. The thing about CompuCom is that their low-bid/cost-cutting tactics have won them many service contracts, so businesses have no choice but to use them when they are the official choice of the hardware vendors that local businesses and companies are using.

I've been in a couple of interviews after vendors had answered an RFP. While we do (by law) have to entertain vendors who lowball the s--t out of a project, we've been burned before and thankfully we do not have to choose a vendor solely based on cost. We tend to go by reputation of the vendor. But man, your Tropical Thunder quote from your earlier post made me almost spill my coffee. LMAO.

BradleyHU

um...i dont know aboot you guys, but alot of companies i know, at least here in NYC, have their own IT dept. I would say its like 65-35 internal IT to outsourced IT.

Zartanasaurus

MauriceMoss wrote: »

Forgive my naiveness.

Do most companies outsource to an "I.T. solutions provider"? I mean, how many of you work directly for the company you are serving? I am trying to leave my current position for another one (bad environment). I was hoping to be directly employed by the company I am providing service to. I want to be on equal footing as the end user. I want leverage for difficult users and not just told to kiss their a** because they are the customer.

Don't worry, you will be told to kiss their ass when you are a direct hire as well. Everyone works for someone who is more important than the IT department in a lot of places. Finance, HR, Sales, whatever.

If you can't make nice with your users, IT is the wrong field for you.

veritas_libertas

shodown wrote: »

CompuCom say no more. I've had to work with them on some projects before. They underbid us on a few contracts for a previous employeer. They didn't even have the people with the skills and offered to re hire us at a lower rate. Our PM laughed and pulled us out and got us on new contracts.

Yup, and from what I've been told they treat their employees badly.

Netwurk

WafflesAndRootbeer wrote: »

You are there to lick the head, work the pipe, and swallow the gravy with a smile. That is how things work in today's world

Um, no. None of us real IT folks are ready to give up or act out your bizarre scenario. But I guess guys like you sucked back during the original depression era.

Worst post I've ever seen, not to mention disgusting. Where's a mod when you need one?

jmasterj206

In my area I would say the direct hire is about 80% and contract is 20%. No matter where you go (contract or hire) IT is a thankless job. IT in a lot of businesses isn't a money making department, but a money costing department and a necessary evil. Most CEO's and CFO's just look at the money spent in IT on equipment and staffing and not at productivity gained.

In the workplace now you will run into the inexperienced users that didn't grow up with computers and get frustrated with computers. Thus, they take it out on the IT staff. On the other side of the spectrum you have the younger generation that knows enough to be dangerous. They get mad at you because they can't install itunes on their work machines or can't access facebook and you will hear about it. Most people are pretty good, but wherever you are they are the troubled ones. You have to deal with it and have thick skin.

WafflesAndRootbeer

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Yup, and from what I've been told they treat their employees badly.

Badly is putting it mildly. They go above and beyond and engage in illegal activities to get their billing done. When I worked for them, I frequently got sent parts that were rigged to fail, damaged, or parts that were well on their way to failing (HDDs and the like) so that they would be replaced within a short period of time and they wouldn't pay us our overtime when we worked it, always giving us excuses that it would be "back pay" and they even tried to make us sign waivers (which violate the state labor and overtime laws) stating that we understood that we would be required to work extra unpaid time as needed because it was "good customer service". There were many days where I had to work from 5 AM to 1 AM in hazardous environments because they were doing on-site rebuilds at local client locations that were being renovated with expansions and telecom upgrades and they wanted to have things taken down and then put back up minute-by-minute as construction went along instead of just waiting for the builders to finish their work so people could move into their new workspace.

ptilsen

The was a big thread on MSPs recently. Several of us posted pretty exhaustive listings of the pros/cons based on our experience.

I have only worked directly for an organization as the full-time systems administrator once. It was relatively boring and easy, and I really wasn't treated much better or worse than I am now (at an MSP). There is definitely an advantage to not working for "customers", but ultimately the greater variety and challenge of work (and opportunities for growth) is probably worth the added stress.

BradleyHU

Netwurk wrote: »

Um, no. None of us real IT folks are ready to give up or act out your bizarre scenario. But I guess guys like you sucked back during the original depression era.

Worst post I've ever seen, not to mention disgusting. Where's a mod when you need one?

he got that line from Tropic Thunder...courtesy of Jack Black...

BradleyHU

jmasterj206 wrote: »

In my area I would say the direct hire is about 80% and contract is 20%. No matter where you go (contract or hire) IT is a thankless job. IT in a lot of businesses isn't a money making department, but a money costing department and a necessary evil. Most CEO's and CFO's just look at the money spent in IT on equipment and staffing and not at productivity gained.

In the workplace now you will run into the inexperienced users that didn't grow up with computers and get frustrated with computers. Thus, they take it out on the IT staff. On the other side of the spectrum you have the younger generation that knows enough to be dangerous. They get mad at you because they can't install itunes on their work machines or can't access facebook and you will hear about it. Most people are pretty good, but wherever you are they are the troubled ones. You have to deal with it and have thick skin.

man, this is soooooooo true. the older folks at my job dont have the patience when it comes to issues with their laptops/workstations...and the younger ones are always trying to install something, but complain when they dont have admin rights. i try not to give pplz admin rights, cuz i know eventually they'll eff up their machine, and then i'll have to reimage it, and i really dont want to, but they will always ask for it, and their mngrs will always authorize that they get it...smh....

Netwurk

BradleyHU wrote: »

he got that line from Tropic Thunder...courtesy of Jack Black...

Geez, my kids really like Jack Black since he was in the new Muppet Movie. Hope they never hear that line (not that they'd understand it).

Everyone

If your customer service skills suck, then you're in the wrong line of business. I've been in-house IT my entire career. Going on 13 years now, and being at the Senior/Lead technical level. I often have to talk directly to C level execs. There's no leverage. I can't go tell my manager that some C level is being difficult. I have to be able to handle it. Guess what, my manager trusts me to do the right thing. If he couldn't, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in.

The key is, treat everybody the same, and treat them the way you would want to be treated. EVERYBODY I talk to is MY customer.

At my level, I know right away that if any end user actually makes it all the way to me and still has a problem, then it is a big one, and they are not going to be happy. There are 3 tiers of support below me, so it has to be a major issue affecting a big chunk of the company for me to even get involved. So while I don't have to deal with anywhere near as many end users anywhere near as often as I did 12 years ago when I was working on a Help Desk, the ones I do have to deal with now are much harder.

Turgon

Everyone wrote: »

If your customer service skills suck, then you're in the wrong line of business. I've been in-house IT my entire career. Going on 13 years now, and being at the Senior/Lead technical level. I often have to talk directly to C level execs. There's no leverage. I can't go tell my manager that some C level is being difficult. I have to be able to handle it. Guess what, my manager trusts me to do the right thing. If he couldn't, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in.

The key is, treat everybody the same, and treat them the way you would want to be treated. EVERYBODY I talk to is MY customer.

At my level, I know right away that if any end user actually makes it all the way to me and still has a problem, then it is a big one, and they are not going to be happy. There are 3 tiers of support below me, so it has to be a major issue affecting a big chunk of the company for me to even get involved. So while I don't have to deal with anywhere near as many end users anywhere near as often as I did 12 years ago when I was working on a Help Desk, the ones I do have to deal with now are much harder.

Some good advice there. Being able to handle situations and importantly people is very important today if you want to get on in IT. And that means all kinds of people at all kinds of levels. It's time to turn the people radar on, and if you are going to have to convince intelligent people in a senior role who have a lot to worry about..well you better be good at people.

ptilsen

+1 for this.

The distinction between "users" and "customers" is trivial at best.

techdudehere

On two occasions, I worked for a large outsourcing provider that shall remain nameless but let's just say it's quite large and well known and leave it at that.

First time: 1) Job site changed daily
2) I was asked to cut through electrical cables because the desks were in the way so they could not be unplugged and removed.
3) One person was hospitalized in an electrical accident on the job, but I don't know exactly how it happened. I just know it involved a UPS.
4) A huge UPS was nearly dropped on my foot due to a lack of proper equipment to carry it and the fact that the other person was in poor shape.
5) On the plus side, I was paid on time and in full.
6) I was not badgered to go to any job site I did not feel was the drive. 7) The gig was not terrible, but I needed more stable work and better working conditions. I moved on rather quickly.

Second time:
1) Work conditions were much better, job site was always the same.
2) Pay was always on time and as expected.
3) Overtime was discouraged but paid when required.
4) People were randomly let go in a fashion that made little sense. One day someone would be there, then called in to the office and out the door the next. This made the entire staff on edge. 5) Anyone with ambition suddenly became ill at least once a week or had doctor appointments and would always return wearing their best outfits/suddenly slip away to take calls throughout the day.
6) The manager for the entire operation was even seeking another job and asked me for a reference once I turned in my notice lol
7) Shortly after I left, they cleaned house and got rid of nearly the entire staff because another city had lower costs of living and cheaper labor.

N2IT

Service providers are extremely challenging to work for. The buyer is always right except in some exceptional situations. You have to really CYA at all times, or else you can easily be replaced. Customer service skills are a must, without them you are living on borrowed time. The PM on the sellar side has very little power especially if the SOW is written to aquire more work, which it almost always is. It's stupid for C's and the service designers to write tight scope statements when you can keep them open and pull more work in through the original SOW. Of course the PM pulls his hair out since he has little power and a ton of responsibility. Not to mention scope creep and unrealistic budget and scheduling expectations.

pinkydapimp

Turgon wrote: »

Some good advice there. Being able to handle situations and importantly people is very important today if you want to get on in IT. And that means all kinds of people at all kinds of levels. It's time to turn the people radar on, and if you are going to have to convince intelligent people in a senior role who have a lot to worry about..well you better be good at people.

These two hit the nail on the head. These are soft skills that are invaluable in IT(or any role). For those that dont have these skills, it might be good to take a job where you can develop them. The better you are at working with people, influencing them, selling them, partnering with them..... the better you will be able to do your job. Also being that IT is moving more towards roles like this, it makes it even more important that one learns these skills.

LinuxRacr

Got a recruitment e-mail from someone at CompuCom, and it got me to thinking, "Where have I heard that name before..."
Yeah, thanks for the heads-up in this thread...

WafflesAndRootbeer

LinuxRacr wrote: »

Got a recruitment e-mail from someone at CompuCom, and it got me to thinking, "Where have I heard that name before..."
Yeah, thanks for the heads-up in this thread...

They have been expanding like crazy over the past three years. Now they have Indian people in the company and send them over here to work as well has having 24/7 support centers in India for network and server monitoring to save money. They have also gotten into the US Data Center market.