I hate this attitude in I.T

ally_uk

Working alongside this guy at the moment who is Linux / Unix guru who on a different level to me in terms of comprehension I swear my brain is wired differently to his, reads machine code like it's childs play writes C and numerous other languages and is a Linux / Unix guru I admire him for his networking knowledge and all round skills and I have learn a great deal from him, But there is a snag a major snag! lol I don't know if all Linux / Unix vets / hardcore are like this but this guy cannot stand Windows, Infact he considers anyone who is a Microsoft professional a Joke and said there is nothing professional about that, He then laughed and said wait you are not a Micorosoft professional are you? oh dear :P, He then went on about how it's not really supported in the enterprise in which I was going to argue back and say majority of companies I have been at use Windows and your average user wont make the transition to something they are comfortable with i.e Windows. He then spends the next two hours giving you the spiel on how fantastic Linux.

I like to keep a Open mind and I use both on a regular basis but surely there is something wrong with having such a closed minded attitude? He then went on about how from a server side point of view Windows is very bloated, I replied have you used Server 2k8? and talked about Server core and Power shell, In which his reply was it's just a shitty version of Linux and a terminal lol, Seems I cant win with this guy

Anyone been in a similar situation?

ptilsen

"It's not supported in the enterprise"? Oh, boy.... Do not feed the trolls.

Jack2

Don't worry his twin brother loves MACS because they don't breakdown and never get any viruses either...

joehalford01

Lol, I agree that you can't generalize like that. Until I started digging into it for work, I had no idea of the depth of Server2K8 R2. It's a great server platform. Linux has its place to and so does Unix. We use all three here at my office.

DevilWAH

Much as I hate to say, I do agree with the guy.

For Pure Geekness Linux is more flexible and adaptable than windows, you are just free to do more with it. Linux is a bit like Lego, simple blocks you can add together to create some rather cool stuff.

Windows is more like an air fix model. you more restricted in what you can do, but Microsoft have kindly done a lots more for you, hand over the instructions and keep it polished.

There's places for both of them in the workplace, often running along side each other. In terms of skills required, a good engineer is a good engineer and a bad one is a bad one what ever system it is on.

My view is for the core domain servers and general work houses Windows is a great platform to use and manage. For more specialised roles Linux and Unix does come in to its own. I have yet to create a cluster of 30 windows servers, running of a single file system sharing the same kernel and running mathematical models of infectious diseases. With windows you simple don't have the low level kernel control to do such things. Indeed in Linux you can rewrite the kernel if needed to achieve your goals.

As people have said, they all have there place, and any one of them has more complexly than any one person could learn in there life time.

ptilsen

DevilWAH wrote: »

Much as I hate to say, I do agree with the guy.

You agree in your preferences for Linux, or you agree that Microsoft is not supported in the enterprise and that Microsoft professionals are a joke?

ally_uk

I just intially felt a bit disheartened because I like to dabble with Windows Technologies alot, such as Server 2k8 R2, Win 7 and I work with XP everyday, The thing that kinda annoyed me was how he dismissed anyone with a Microsoft certification as being not a true professional. I mean becoming a expert in Micorosoft technologies isn't a play skool affair it takes time and dedication and understanding of the technologies.

I agree with what you are saying about the flexibility of Linux that's what attracts me to it, I am fairly new to the whole Open Source ethos I was introduced to Debian initially to which my initial reactions were Linux? wtf is Linux? lol, I have been well my freinds say obsessed with it since. I made the mistake in the past of biting off more than I can chew with Linux and tried running before I could walk. But I have recently taken things back to basics starting with setting up a server via the cli, I guess I have developed a passion for Linux and want to explore it further I am very interested in the server / administration side of things I'm taking baby steps at the moment but on of my first goals is to actually get Linux to act as a Domain controller but to achieve this goal I know I will take the noob streps and start with basic Samba configs and build up the knowledge from there.

It has been suggested to me that I use SME Server or Webmin but I prefer to tackle it through the cli and actually understand what is going on with the system and how to configure the configuration the manual way. With the Raspberry Pi on the horizon I really want to get some Linux skills under my belt so I can tinker with these Plus I'm one of these types who hates making hardware redundant such as old pentium 4's i'd rather do something useful with them and Linux is great for projects.

Another side of me aslo has a strong desire to learn Server2k8 R2 I have it installed on my main rig and have purchased Mastering Server 2k8 r2 book which I can honestly say is the best I.T Book I have ever read it is so informative and easy to follow love it.

I guess though Linux sometimes can be a bit overwhelming for myself sometimes the documentation isn't concise and I have purchased numerous books over the years which have been aimed at entry / noob level they start off well then things become very complicated and you end up with a serious headache trying to make sense of what the author is trying to convey lol.

Devil do you run Linux at home?

veritas_libertas

LOL we have a guy at work who is a true Linux guru. Although he is not fond of Windows he can run circles around our MS Admins with Server 2008. I've never met a person who is THAT good with both operating systems.

SteveLord

If he is close minded, then are you not easily irritated? Seriously....so what? He isnt the first of his type and wont be the last.

erpadmin

*Yawn...*

Thankfully, I don't run into those types anymore in my real life. Shoot, Microsoft is the reason I was able to triple my salary before my degree.

*Nix has its place, but that place tends to be in much larger shops. *Nix plus Oracle would mean I could double my current salary as an admin...(an ADMIN) but that's why I'm ok with IT management. I would rather be that guy's boss, and would know how to manage his hatred of M$ by directing it to something constructive. (And by "constructive" I wouldn't mean converting the enterprise into a *Nix shop....)

A good argument for the *Nix vs. Windows is that there are a number of legitimate 3rd party apps that BUSINESSES want that aren't supported in a *Nix environment. So then what do you do, spend more money on VMware licensing to build VMs that will house these apps to be housed in MS O/Ses? Just because *Nix is better than Windows? LMAO....

Listen, ally, if it's any consolation, my entire IT career has been in nothing but Windows shops. They're not going anywhere and if your little friend ever told me I wasn't a true IT professional, I would simply laugh at him and move on.

There was a guy who I had met who pretty much was a major jerk. Guy couldn't spell "IT" let alone do it to save his life. He had actually taken over a position in his township that was left by another guy who took over my position at a previous job [that guy who took my position would later be a Network Engineer at a major bank...guy had found his niche with Cisco and he was a really sharp kid]. Anyway, jerk-boy tells me that since I don't work with Linux, I'm not a true IT professional, much like with your current situation. Difference was though, this guy had no clue what he was talking about and couldn't intelligently talk about Linux, Windows, or even desktop PCs. Long story short, he is still working for his township making X amount of dollars, and I'm making Y amount. Y-X=$34K difference. (I just looked his salary up, because like me, he's a public employee. )

Moral of the story, don't let this guy get you down...just keep the eye on your prize, and let this guy spout out his nonsense without it effecting you. You'll end up winning in the end.

paul78

ally_uk wrote: »

Anyone been in a similar situation?

I absolutely love talking to people like that!!! Its a great distraction for me.

And I like people with a seemingly myopic passion for technology. Usually after a few minutes, everyone that I have ever met with this attitude tend to do it for effect and its as an artificial facade.

QHalo

SteveLord wrote: »

If he is close minded, then are you not easily irritated? Seriously....so what? He isnt the first of his type and wont be the last.

Agreed, dime a dozen. Try talking a mainframe guy about virtualization. "We've been doin that for years" Same thing.

DevilWAH

ptilsen wrote: »

You agree in your preferences for Linux, or you agree that Microsoft is not supported in the enterprise and that Microsoft professionals are a joke?

I prefer working on linux but I know some truly gifted Microsoft engineers who I would never suggest are a joke, and the best networks I have worked on have Microsoft at the heart of the Domain, with Linux used for some specialised tasks.

I have yet to see a fully Linux Domains set up, and I don't think I ever will, for the core domain functions Microsoft has a much more polished product.

DevilWAH

ally_uk wrote: »

Devil do you run Linux at home?

My laptops run Windows 7

My server runs Linux (unbuntu) but it is just for web server, FTP, TFTP... generally playing around.

I did run unbuntu desk top for a while on one of my laptops but for day to day use there was no advantage over Windows, so I didn't see the point. How ever I also run GNS3 (CISCO emulator) that runs much better on Linux than windows, so I have a duel boot on one machine so I can run when I want.

So very much a mixture here, I like Linux becasue I fine the interface is very logical, and if you want to run a web server and set up an email server you can do so with in a few minutes without worrying abut licence costs and there is a wealth of info on the web to do it. But windows does what it says and is user friendly.

Forsaken_GA

I'm one of those unix nerds. I don't like Microsoft or their products. I think the only thing Windows is good for is playing games, and I only believe that's because most coders are too damn lazy or incapable to code without the crutch that directx providers (same with .NET for alot of non gaming apps). I believe real admins use a command line. I have met many, many linux admins who make good windows admins just from dabbling around, but I've never met a windows admin who was a passable unix admin. The longest outages I've ever been party to have had Exchange and Sharepoint at their root, and I'm not quite sure if it was the product, or the ineptness of the people that ran them that were at fault.

With that being said, I wouldn't agree that Microsoft is unsupported in the Enterprise. I may not like it, but I have to admit that when it comes to locking down workstations, it's a hell of alot easier to do with AD applied GPO's. The linux world doesn't have much that can compare to Exchange as a groupware platform. Unfortunately, Microsoft products are a lowest common denominator, and if you're going to play on the admin side, it's in your best interests to be well versed in both. I recently picked up a Technet subscription so I could play with linux/AD integration, because as much as I hate Microsoft products, I hate maintaining multiple authentication systems even more, and it's alot easier to integrate unix boxen using AD as an authentication back end, then it is to integrate windows boxen to use a unix authentication backend.

So yeah, it's fairly common for the unix guys to be elitist pricks, but in my experience, the arrogance is honestly earned, though the rhetoric could be toned down just a bit.

Everyone

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I've never met a windows admin who was a passable unix admin.

Hi! Nice to meet you.

Forsaken_GA

Everyone wrote: »

Hi! Nice to meet you.

Well, as we like to say down here in the south, sun shines on a dogs ass somedays

vCole

Everyone wrote: »

Hi! Nice to meet you.

x 2 here

petedude

DevilWAH wrote: »

I have yet to see a fully Linux Domains set up, and I don't think I ever will, for the core domain functions Microsoft has a much more polished product.

Yeah, because M$ can change the protocols around every time they hand a copy to the Samba team.

Eventually, I imagine there will be a solid AD-compatible domain system for Linux. Problem is, since M$ maintains the protocols, they have access and control, and they can/do change them at a whim.

If Banyan hadn't gone under, I imagine we would have had a competitive directory service running on Linux already. Novell's NDS would have been a competitor, except Novell can't market itself out of a paper bag and has a habit of shooting itself in the feet on a regular basis.

As to my preferences, M$ puts money in my wallet but I'm not always sure they play nicely in the market like they should. Desktop Linux distros are getting better all the time, and momentum of Linux on the desktop will require evolution rather than revolution. For servers. . . many small shops probably could get by on Linux servers to save money, but would probably make up the difference in salary to the guy they have maintaining them. That's partly why you see acceptance of Linux limited mostly to large shops.

DevilWAH

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I've never met a windows admin who was a passable unix admin.

I know a few, in my mind Linux/Unix is the easier system to be a true admin of.

It's a bit like the Network or sys admin argument.

Microsoft you need to learn lots of different pieces of the puzzle, a good Microsoft admin will know AD, Exchange, SQL, Web, File share, sharepoint, backup, anti virus, .........

Where as LINUX is much more involved to get going, but once you are up to speed its "more of the same", there is a very defined logic to Linux that means once you have learnt the core, it is easy to apply that knowlage to other areas.

So Linux is a very steep learning curve, and there is not a lot of help to get in to, its very much teach yourself and you really need to understand the OS to get any where with it. But under stand the core fundamentals and you have a very powerful tool at your disposal

Microsoft is a much shallower curve, and you can pick up bits and to some extent even carry out admin with out "knowing" what you are doing. but a real Windows admin is worth the money. and when you see the field leaders such as Mark_Russinovich you can see just how gifted real Microsoft engineers are.

I still believe that there are very few people who have a complete understanding of there own field, let alone any one else's. And all IT is the same, just simple logic repeated many times. Take any OS and if you delve deep enough it become complex enough.

jibbajabba

Everyone wrote: »

Hi! Nice to meet you.

Ditto - I am truely Windows oriented but since I worked 4+ years in a hosting company, responsible to install / configure, and even more importantly, support them in level-2 and 3, I can say I am a unix admin myself. I had to do anything from compiling custom kernels, installation of web / proxy / mail / lb components (always from source) to fully blown mission critical custom applications ...

Sure, I am by no means perfect and I am sure a lot of *nix guys have a LOT more on me .. But I have shown that I am more knowledgable than a lot of *nix certified staff ...

We had a few Linux and Solaris certified guys and I explained certain stuff to them ..

My point is, just because someone knows Windows inside and out, doesn't mean he will most likely be rubbish in *nix ...... The reason you haven't heard about them or even met them is simple ...

"We" are a different breed. We don't try to force "our" stuff onto "you Linux" guys. We just get on with it and don't necessarily make a big deal out of it.

Have you ever looked on big forums such as linuxquestions.org ? The attitute of most *nix "professionals" is disgusting ... If you are stuck and you need help, you get ripped apart as "you should know that" ...

Anyway - this is an old topic really and can be discussed for hours and days ....

DevilWAH

petedude wrote: »

For servers. . . many small shops probably could get by on Linux servers to save money, but would probably make up the difference in salary to the guy they have maintaining them. That's partly why you see acceptance of Linux limited mostly to large shops.

Indeed there was a recent study in to this, that showed if you don't have the required Linux skill's in house, then it can be very expensive to attempt the swap from Microsoft. especially when you consider your whole IT department will need to learn a new skill set.

My one issue with Linux is it is becoming more like Windows. Take Unbuntu for example, there desktop version is getting bloated becasue they are trying to fit all the functions in to one box and present a nice user interface. The key to Linux use to be that it was presented with core functionality that was then built on to only included what was needed. It seems some distributions are trying to take on windows by offering a windows replacement. I know people who use linux daily but don't have a clue what goes on under the hood.

it_consultant

I am a Windows admin and I am most certainly NOT a passable UNIX admin. Its not that the skills aren't cross compatible, its that the networks we work on are much different. In a Linux shop, as you guys have alluded too, there are normally a good number of Windows servers which Linux/Unix admins will have to get into and work on. Since most server platforms are quite similar in their functions; it doesn't take much for a *nix admin to be a good Windows admin.

Windows shops are just that, Windows and NO Linux, so us on the Windows side have little professional opportunity to cross pollinate. When we do it is usually a seriously unusual situation and we are stuck going "Why in the BLOODY HELL is it so hard to configure an IP address in this thing?". Windows admins have no use for Netshell, but when a linux admin gets in it its like riding a bike because they are used to arcane CLI commands and arguments.

For me that really sums it up. Linux admins are quite good because it seems much more challenging to do what we would consider basic tasks. There is no doubt to me that configuring Windows DNS is monumentally easier than setting up BIND and since we started with Windows, we are extremely impatient with learning Linux - to our downfall I would say.

it_consultant

petedude wrote: »

That's partly why you see acceptance of Linux limited mostly to large shops.

I would say it is more because a lot of the line of business applications also run on Linux and for a huge implementation, the costs of Licensing the MS environment can be prohibitive. A medium sized organization can drop 100K on MS licensing for the Server and SQL (plus CALs) alone. That doesn't include whatever the application CALs are. Assuming you aren't using Hyper-V (which every MS shop SHOULD consider) you will drop another $15-20 on VMWARE. We haven't gotten to the hardware costs yet.

You get almost no cost benefit to using Linux desktops, they confuse the crap out of your users and we are back to 1999 with printer drivers etc. However, when we are talking these huge systems that hundreds/thousands of people use. That is a different story.

cmitchell_00

ally_uk wrote: »

I just intially felt a bit disheartened because I like to dabble with Windows Technologies alot, such as Server 2k8 R2, Win 7 and I work with XP everyday, The thing that kinda annoyed me was how he dismissed anyone with a Microsoft certification as being not a true professional. I mean becoming a expert in Micorosoft technologies isn't a play skool affair it takes time and dedication and understanding of the technologies.

I agree with what you are saying about the flexibility of Linux that's what attracts me to it, I am fairly new to the whole Open Source ethos I was introduced to Debian initially to which my initial reactions were Linux? wtf is Linux? lol, I have been well my freinds say obsessed with it since. I made the mistake in the past of biting off more than I can chew with Linux and tried running before I could walk. But I have recently taken things back to basics starting with setting up a server via the cli, I guess I have developed a passion for Linux and want to explore it further I am very interested in the server / administration side of things I'm taking baby steps at the moment but on of my first goals is to actually get Linux to act as a Domain controller but to achieve this goal I know I will take the noob streps and start with basic Samba configs and build up the knowledge from there.

It has been suggested to me that I use SME Server or Webmin but I prefer to tackle it through the cli and actually understand what is going on with the system and how to configure the configuration the manual way. With the Raspberry Pi on the horizon I really want to get some Linux skills under my belt so I can tinker with these Plus I'm one of these types who hates making hardware redundant such as old pentium 4's i'd rather do something useful with them and Linux is great for projects.

Another side of me aslo has a strong desire to learn Server2k8 R2 I have it installed on my main rig and have purchased Mastering Server 2k8 r2 book which I can honestly say is the best I.T Book I have ever read it is so informative and easy to follow love it.

I guess though Linux sometimes can be a bit overwhelming for myself sometimes the documentation isn't concise and I have purchased numerous books over the years which have been aimed at entry / noob level they start off well then things become very complicated and you end up with a serious headache trying to make sense of what the author is trying to convey lol.

Devil do you run Linux at home?

Dude...keep doing both because in this market you need a solid professional who can do both. I find most environments have Windows is their core but Linux or Unix or even with Apple OS-X systems. The true I.T. guys have knowledge about "most" operating systems or hardware because we are wired that way so; just keep gaining knowledge from this horse in blinders guy-lol. I love Windows server R2 but, I have Linux systems installed and some bootable Linux OS i.e. Ubuntu, Google Chrome etc. at home on a Windows 03 dual boot server. However, I have to support Windows NT. 4.0 & 2000 environments still (migrating soon), Windows 2003 etc. plus Linux, MAC's so; I like being versatile; keeps me working!!!!!!!!

*Don't let this guy stray you off course learn as much as possible and be more marketable in the end while this shortens his career by being close minded!

DevilWAH

it_consultant wrote: »

arcane CLI commands and arguments.

This is where a lot of windows admin fall down. The CLI is so hugely powerfully, and yet most windows admin chose to ignore it in preference to the GUI.

While The GUI makes carrying out a single take possible more straight forward, it fails miserly when carrying out repetitive tasks or when comparing configurations across devices.

Indeed both with windows and linux, understanding the CLI will give you a huge step forward in your ability as an admin. Back when I dealt a lot more with windows, I had a folder of scripts that I had created for carrying out tasks. creating users, moving users, assigning GP's, moving home drives, mapping printers. you can do it all from CLI and if you can do it from the CLI you can do it with a script.

Console sessions take up less room and less resources so you can have 3 or 4 along side each other and compare them directly against each other line for line. Much easier than trying to compare configs across tabs.

if you have the CLI skills in windows then you do have the skills to do well on Linux, if you are a pure GUI jockey then you will struggle with Linux. I have to say all the good server admins I know Linux or Windows have that one thing in common. They know there way around the command line and know at least one scripting language in detail and how to apply it.

RobertKaucher

Easy come, easy go....

QHalo

PowerShell, nothing much more to say to Windows Admins. Learn it. It does amazing things. The GUI is great and is faster in some regards, but PowerShell CLI is extremely powerful.

msteinhilber

Technology has no place in the enterprise, I win.

Zartanasaurus

it_consultant wrote: »

I am a Windows admin and I am most certainly NOT a passable UNIX admin. Its not that the skills aren't cross compatible, its that the networks we work on are much different. In a Linux shop, as you guys have alluded too, there are normally a good number of Windows servers which Linux/Unix admins will have to get into and work on. Since most server platforms are quite similar in their functions; it doesn't take much for a *nix admin to be a good Windows admin.

Windows shops are just that, Windows and NO Linux, so us on the Windows side have little professional opportunity to cross pollinate. When we do it is usually a seriously unusual situation and we are stuck going "Why in the BLOODY HELL is it so hard to configure an IP address in this thing?". Windows admins have no use for Netshell, but when a linux admin gets in it its like riding a bike because they are used to arcane CLI commands and arguments.

For me that really sums it up. Linux admins are quite good because it seems much more challenging to do what we would consider basic tasks. There is no doubt to me that configuring Windows DNS is monumentally easier than setting up BIND and since we started with Windows, we are extremely impatient with learning Linux - to our downfall I would say.

It's not really hard to configure an IP address in Linux, just different. There's tons of command line functionality in the Windows world that server admins should be using. And with Microsoft moving everything to have base Powershell support, Windows admin is going to be a lot like Linux admin in that respect.

Any Windows admin worth his salt will always be using scripts to make his life easier. It's easy to add a DNS entry in a GUI. Not so easy to add 1,000.

RobertKaucher

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

... The longest outages I've ever been party to have had Exchange and Sharepoint at their root, and I'm not quite sure if it was the product, or the ineptness of the people that ran them that were at fault.

The most common cause of outages is human error, plain and simple. Systems like Exchange and SharePoint should run like butter if properly configured and maintained. If sh*t is going down, it is most likely because some nubcake did something he/she shouldn't have or didn't do something he/she should have. If Linux servers were as common as Windows systems in the Enterprise you would see them causing just as many outages of those services because the same sorts of people would be running them.