What is the "Cloud".

Roguetadhg

I will admit, I'm a skeptic for "Cloud" movement.

For most, including myself the cloud has always been a representation of "The internet", which is far easier to make a squiggle-circle and call it "Cloud" then a globe or a large cluster of stuff. To that end, I'm not entire sure what's inside the "Cloud" when I look at it from this point of view. This thread is not a question of what's inside the ISP, but rather the topic of such centralized movements.

When I hear "Cloud" I hear "Centralized storage (SAN/NAS), processing (Terminals, Virtualization)". Im guessing there's much more to this movement that it's a huge deal.

I just don't understand.

Please make me understand why people are excited about the cloud.

Besides having an excuse to make a shape on the white board

Essendon

The only "people" who seem excited by the cloud are upper management who cant tell a printer apart from a washing machine. Even your home lab computer is a bit of cloud, you run VMware and you allocate disk space from a large disk, that's a tiny cloud. Basically anything with disk space and some kind of virtual environment is a Cloud. The cloud's been there for years, it's just a buzzword now as VMware/Citrix/Hyper-v make their ways into datacenters. VDI is the other buzzword.

Forsaken_GA

It's that thing that's going to put all of us out of work! On noes!

It's just the latest iteration of the 'decentralize the infrastructure!' spoke of the wheel. It'll be popular for awhile, and then we'll see a big movement to go back to a centralized infrastructure.

ThePrimetimer

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

It's just the latest iteration of the 'decentralize the infrastructure!' spoke of the wheel. It'll be popular for awhile, and then we'll see a big movement to go back to a centralized infrastructure.

I'm just curious, why will there be a movement back to centralized? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind it. I currently work for a cloud provider, and to tell you, I'm not impressed. I deal with "slowness" issues on a daily basis. I am sure that this data is fast, but when you go from one side of the US to the other, it's still gonna take some time. Some of our users don't understand that. They think it should be instant. I'm just putting logic into knowing that nothing can just jump across the country instantly, with the routes it has to go, different ISP providers, etc.

Also, the compatibility issue. There ares so many application issues I deal with, just because they have not been tested in the cloud. Some issues wouldn't happen had they been installed centrally. Anyhow, I do agree that it's a sales gimmick and it just sounds so good....until the problems start happening.

shodown

I can give you a example of one company that pulled back in. They were in the cloud, they dealt with the issue of slowness and they kept getting FAT and I mean real fat bills for usages on there cloud providers. The could was suppose to be this saving grace of getting cost down and reducing staff. What they found is that they needed a change in staff, they went from in house IT guys to people they had to call the cloud providers and manage projects, PM's to be on top of them, and no real control. So we made them a private cloud in a cohost. They now have all of there internal Apps running on netapp VMware cisco solutions across 2 datacenters with nexus switches for redundancy, and they host customer facing traffic in the cloud. THey have reduced cost, improved performance, and happier internal/external customers. The cloud has been here, its just a buzz word to suck dollars out of management. There is no 1 size fits all. All companies should constantly evaluate there needs and requirements and decide where best to spend there dollars.

Forsaken_GA

ThePrimetimer wrote: »

I'm just curious, why will there be a movement back to centralized?

Security issues and the preference of having control of your own equipment will be the major factors. And eventually folks who want to sell hardware kit will price competitively to make cloud solutions not as viable as they had been. It's just business.

But the simple fact is that this is all cyclical. The industy vacilitates between different methodologies and designs, and what's old becomes new, and so on.

erpadmin

I notice that people who tend to be "Pro-cloud," as far as tech professionals are concerned, tend to be on the younger side. I'm not saying all techs, but a good deal of them. Business folks who usually can't spell IT will also get suckered into those nebulous things in the sky.

The cloud is never going to get rid of in-house IT, or even "centralized"/internal infrastructure. It's just not going to happen. No one wants their data to be accessed by someone in the third world, regardless of which hemisphere it's on. Laws would have to change before state/federal governments start using the cloud. Even if cloud providers would lobby hard, you still have groups like the EFF that would lobby just as hard.

"But ERP, how do you know this? The cloud is still in its infancy....."

Because, Virginia, the cloud is NOT new at all. It's existed as many names....Application Service Provider, Software as as Service [salesforce.com is a perfect example of that], MSPes providing outsourced infrastructure for databases, web services, etc....it's all the same s--t. It's just that the "cloud" is a buzzword that has even Grandma saying it.

In about 3-5 years, people will just move to something else, or go back to internal solutions, like Forsaken suggested. The cloud is nothing but toilet paper to be used appropriately.

Forsaken_GA

erpadmin wrote: »

Because, Virginia, the cloud is NOT new at all. It's existed as many names....Application Service Provider, Software as as Service [salesforce.com is a perfect example of that], MSPes providing outsourced infrastructure for databases, web services, etc....it's all the same s--t. It's just that the "cloud" is a buzzword that has even Grandma saying it.

In about 3-5 years, people will just move to something else, or go back to internal solutions, like Forsaken suggested. The cloud is nothing but toilet paper to be used appropriately.

Yup. There are some apps that are well suited for cloudyzation. Things like email I think are a good example. My production applications? Yeah, no. I also don't think the fad of stuff like Office applications (Word, Excel, etc) in the cloud is going to stick. The major driving point for me for the cloud is convenience. There are certain things I like the idea of having access to anywhere, and alot of that is storage. For example, I use KeePass for my password management. It has a compatible client on every single platform I may need my passwords on. I store my keepass database in my DropBox folder, which likewise has a client for everything I use. Since KeePass stores it's database encrypted, I'm perfectly comfortable syncing it out to the cloud for use on whatever platform I wish. Likewise, for my email, I use Gmail more than anything else these days just because it's easy to sit down in front of any box and check my email via web browser. On the corporate side of things, I'd much rather use Outlook Web Access than haul my laptop out, connect to the VPN, and load up Outlook.

I also find it incredibly convenient to use TurboTax online for my tax filing purposes, since my previous year returns are immediately available, and applicable things are filled in automatically. This is the strength of the cloud. Ubiquitous access that makes the operating system essentially a dumb terminal into your workflow.

However, that's not always appropriate, especially on the backend. So the cloud isn't going away. It's always been there, it's just the latest thing to evolve into marketing buzz. Likewise, datacenters not owned by cloud providers aren't going away.

Long story short, don't let "The Cloud" influence your career decisions too terribly much. Folks just need to keep doing what they're good at, and they'll get paid for it.

erpadmin

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Yup. There are some apps that are well suited for cloudyzation. Things like email I think are a good example. My production applications? Yeah, no. I also don't think the fad of stuff like Office applications (Word, Excel, etc) in the cloud is going to stick. The major driving point for me for the cloud is convenience. There are certain things I like the idea of having access to anywhere, and alot of that is storage. For example, I use KeePass for my password management. It has a compatible client on every single platform I may need my passwords on. I store my keepass database in my DropBox folder, which likewise has a client for everything I use. Since KeePass stores it's database encrypted, I'm perfectly comfortable syncing it out to the cloud for use on whatever platform I wish. Likewise, for my email, I use Gmail more than anything else these days just because it's easy to sit down in front of any box and check my email via web browser. On the corporate side of things, I'd much rather use Outlook Web Access than haul my laptop out, connect to the VPN, and load up Outlook.

I also find it incredibly convenient to use TurboTax online for my tax filing purposes, since my previous year returns are immediately available, and applicable things are filled in automatically. This is the strength of the cloud. Ubiquitous access that makes the operating system essentially a dumb terminal into your workflow.

However, that's not always appropriate, especially on the backend. So the cloud isn't going away. It's always been there, it's just the latest thing to evolve into marketing buzz. Likewise, datacenters not owned by cloud providers aren't going away.

We all have e-mail accounts that are internet-based, many of us do use Dropbox and Evernote (I use both for school and I gotta say, it's terribly convenient for me to have this ubiquitous access you speak of.) Been using turbotax for years (except last year, but that's only cause I needed a CPA's advice on a personal matter.)

The thing is though...I never once referred to any of those services as "cloud services" even though that's what they technically are. While Dropbox is a bit newer to me, I've used similar services in the past, like X-Drive, and various other online storage solutions. But Dropbox is great because I can access those things ANYTIME via my phone and/or tablet. [Sometimes I don't have my tablet with me, but I always have my phone.] Heck, I just gave myself free 750MB just by uploading a picture and going through their tutorial.

I just flat out refuse to use that term for those things. I'm too old school. Online applications/services pretty much works fine for me. My whole thing was never about those, but this notion that IT shops will get cloudified one day and there will be legions of cloud experts begging to cloudify an already stable infrastructure. Your last statement pretty much is sound advice for anyone considering cloud.

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Long story short, don't let "The Cloud" influence your career decisions too terribly much. Folks just need to keep doing what they're good at, and they'll get paid for it.

it_consultant

The 'cloud' is a puffy white formation in the sky.

Heny '06

Very informative, keep it coming guys. Thank you

darkerz

My company feeds off Forsakens predictions- We provide managed security, networking (ISP for business) and a whole host of other solutions that we keep on their site. Unlike most, we don't offsite everything into a datacenter. The centralized structure is there because they want security, control and manageability. (Financial, Healthcare, Small Businesses, Hospitality, Military, etc)

We like it because at the very minimum, our clients will have their internet resold from us (Through Centurylink, Covad, etc etc) so that heart beat is entirely up to us and our vendors cable monkeys if there is a hard down. There is nothing a good set up SNMP traps and remote connectivity to managed devices can't resolve besides layer 1 issues or LAN side issues.

I'm already seeing a movement to more on site infrastructure, but instead of having 10 boxes for 10 servers, people much rather prefer one sleek server that will always work tucked away with one or two managed networking devices. Even with larger MPLS-type clients the want is still there, they just want everything virtualized and managed by a MSP, not entirely moved into "the cloud".

it_consultant

The "cloud" as it were, is really appropriate for people that can't afford the type of availability they want. I sell "cloud" based servers, which are really just VMWARE VMs in an offsite datacenter. I run into this all the time, people want 100% uptime, failover, load balancing, etc. I then tally up the servers (2x what they need - the warm spare if you will), redundant SANs, redundant switches, redundant firewalls, redundant internet, redundant power, redundant cooling, etc and they suddenly become OK with 99 percent uptime. The worst is when someone thinks they have 100% redundancy and I point out they only have one SAN.

At $400 a month or whatever, cloud servers become attractive. Not to mention you can avoid the hassle of putting all your own stuff in and testing it.

vanquish23

Try telling the DOD to put intel data in the cloud, encryption or not, it will never happen.

YFZblu

Roguetadhg wrote: »

I will admit, I'm a skeptic for "Cloud" movement.

For most, including myself the cloud has always been a representation of "The internet", which is far easier to make a squiggle-circle and call it "Cloud" then a globe or a large cluster of stuff. To that end, I'm not entire sure what's inside the "Cloud" when I look at it from this point of view. This thread is not a question of what's inside the ISP, but rather the topic of such centralized movements.

When I hear "Cloud" I hear "Centralized storage (SAN/NAS), processing (Terminals, Virtualization)". Im guessing there's much more to this movement that it's a huge deal.

I just don't understand.

Please make me understand why people are excited about the cloud.

Besides having an excuse to make a shape on the white board

Well it depends on what your definition of 'the Cloud' is. The term is thrown around quite a bit and its definition becomes blurry. When When I think 'cloud', I think three things: Saas, PaaS, IaaS.

1. Software as a Service: On-demand software. No local installation. Example: Google Docs

2. Platform as a Service: You have no servers, no software, no maintenance team, no air handlers. Someone else handles the platform, you handle the product. Example: Salesforce.com

3. Infrastructure as a Service: Also known as 'Hardware as a Service'. Outsourced equipment. Example: Server providers.

Source: Explanations for numbers 1-3 were taken from ProfessorMesser.com and his Security+ video instruction.

odysseyelite

I see the cloud as simple as virtualization.

It could be at a MSP or a data center. In our case at work our data center in Dallas is the cloud for Business units in other areas of the country. We took their server room out of the question and put it in "the cloud" for them.

End users don't care where the server is as long as it works well enough for them to do their job.

dave330i

odysseyelite wrote: »

I see the cloud as simple as virtualization.

It could be at a MSP or a data center. In our case at work our data center in Dallas is the cloud for Business units in other areas of the country. We took their server room out of the question and put it in "the cloud" for them.

End users don't care where the server is as long as it works well enough for them to do their job.

You can cloud w/out virtualizing, but hardware cost and deployment time goes up.

erpadmin

odysseyelite wrote: »

End users don't care where the server is as long as it works well enough for them to do their job.

If those end users are employed by government/military agencies, they care.
If those end users are at a company that has to safeguard personal information that's governed by state or federal law (like HIPPA, for example), they care.

N2IT

I want to hear Jeff Bridges in his "Dude" voice go "Man the cloud is the future, it's everything man"!

benbuiltpc

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Security issues and the preference of having control of your own equipment will be the major factors. And eventually folks who want to sell hardware kit will price competitively to make cloud solutions not as viable as they had been. It's just business.

But the simple fact is that this is all cyclical. The industy vacilitates between different methodologies and designs, and what's old becomes new, and so on.

All in the name of profits. If Company X made a perfect product the first time around, the revenue stream would die at some point down the road (think of that commercial where people chew the same piece of gum forever). It's belittling to be part of an industry that thrives on impulsive consumer behavior; at the same time we're expected as professionals to increase efficiency and cut costs. What a paradox.

techdudehere

Why would a business consider cloud? *They don't want to concern themselves with availability/disaster recovery. *A recent problem caused availability issues *They want to lease a server/licensing solution because a major upgrade is needed and they did not budget for it. *A cloud vendor offers a cookie cutter solution for a service that has been difficult or expense to maintain. Internet speed is less of an issue now. The TS can also be in the cloud, if needed. Eventually cloud vendors will offer access to wide variety of hosted applications. How many businesses have web sites hosted elsewhere. I would expect hosted exchange will become very common soon. Other applications will not be far behind. I expect it to shift some work around, but not much more than that.

Forsaken_GA

techdudehere wrote: »

\ *They don't want to concern themselves with availability/disaster recovery.

I always love it when folks use this as a good reason to go into the cloud. Because trust me, when there's a problem with the cloud provider and your lose access to your stuff (ie, Amazon EC2's fubar last year), trust me, customers concern themselves with availability and disaster recovery in a rather vocal and vehement manner.

it_consultant

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I always love it when folks use this as a good reason to go into the cloud. Because trust me, when there's a problem with the cloud provider and your lose access to your stuff (ie, Amazon EC2's fubar last year), trust me, customers concern themselves with availability and disaster recovery in a rather vocal and vehement manner.

You still have the problem of the internet connection at the customer site as well. If it goes down, so does the "cloud".

There is a difference between a straight cloud hosted server (essentially a blank slate where you can install your own software) and the application platform that you get through Amazon and Microsoft. Along with the cloud server(s) you get through Amazon EC2, you can also plug into their eCommerce software. If you are a smaller company, access to that level of software is almost unattainable in house.

Mrkali

I loved this quote regarding the 'cloud',

"The interesting thing about cloud computing is that we've redefined cloud computing to include everything that we already do. I can't think of anything that isn't cloud computing with all of these announcements. The computer industry is the only industry that is more fashion-driven than women's fashion. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I have no idea what anyone is talking about. What is it? It's complete gibberish. It's insane. When is this idiocy going to stop?"

-Larry Ellison, CEO Oracle - 2008

nicklauscombs

big business and government moving to a public "cloud" provider? currently working for one of these providers is more than enough proof it won't happen anytime soon.

the same organizations (private companies and govt) utilizing "cloud" technology to implement onsite private solutions in the future? absolutely.

themagicone

Oh... My ex-boss just got back from the conference in LA on the "cloud".... He is all about the "cloud" now.