Disturbing Trend...

Starter

I don't think some employers know what it means to have an MCSE. They ask for MCSE but all you need is probably an A+ and it's for a job like plain computer tech. They expect you to pass 7 brutal exams, spend thousands in books and exam fee just to do a job like that. My advice for all of you is if you have an MCSE, don't do a job like that. Leave that for A+ certified technicians.

/usr

I can see your point, but they may be somewhat justified in asking for at least an MCSA. With just an A+, although you will probably know how to build and troubleshoot the hardware portion of a PC, you still may be somewhat lacking when it comes to in-depth troubleshooting. Since most techs often have to do this, perhaps they assume that someone with an MCSA will be a better candidate than someone with just an A+? Just a thought.

jmc724

Yes, that is very true, they want a MCSE to do just a systems admin, helpdesk, or desktop support job with no design being involved. I can see where an IT consulant company would require mcse since they most do all the design for sm-med size business.

strauchr

When browsing job sites I get increasingly frustrated with amount of positions being advertised as "Network Engineer" MCSE required blah blah to find out its really just a desktop/help desk job. Thats just ridiculous!

So I have to wade through these incorrectly displayed ads to find good job ads. I've even been to interviews for some network engineering job then they tell me it will mostly be PC support but we want you to be MCSE but then we're only going to pay you a tech wage.

However, the good jobs are out there, just a matter of finding them!

Kaillus

The same thing seems to be happening with IT positions as with companies: Consolidation.

So many employers are trying to fill the hats of 3-4 positions with 1 hat. Long gone are the days of IT specialization. From now on, you will need to become an expert in multiple areas to be competitive. Even then, the wages will not be back up to earlier marks for some time to come.

I have read in many different places about the 70%-80% of jobs are not publicly posted and require networking to find those jobs. This is such a sad state of affairs since I am sure most IT people like myself have a very hard time mustering up the necessary social skills and getting beyond our phobias to accomplish those tasks of going from employer to employer passing out our resumes, asking to speak to hiring managers, and dealing with rejection.

Oh, and you can't forget about swallowing your pride. That is probably the hardest thing to do.

BluesKid

Starter, I couldn't agree more. Its really sad. Employer ignorance is devaluing the title of MCSE. It has simply become nothing more than a buzz word with a lot of hiring/HR personnel. They know its desirable and therefore they want it. Its "systems engineer" not "right out of high school flunkee." I would really hope MCSEs would never accept one of these jobs (except when times are really tough). By doing it, they contribute to the perceived value degradation of something that really should be revered as an expert status. Hell, even an MCSA is WAY too good for most of these jobs requiring an MCSE. Getting an MCSA 2003 isn’t a small feat. I think when I start looking for new jobs and I run across one of those, I will just send an e-mail explaining just what an MCSE is and what is involved with becoming one

On the up-side, I have heard from hiring managers they put "MCSE required" in the listing only with the intention of dissuading under qualified morons from filling their inboxes. They actually know they wont get what they are asking for.

Starter

BluesKid wrote:

On the up-side, I have heard from hiring managers they put "MCSE required" in the listing only with the intention of dissuading under qualified morons from filling their inboxes. They actually know they wont get what they are asking for.

That's a positive note!

jmc724

I went to an interview for a technical analyst with centerpoint energy. The interviewers were all sr tech analysts and dont even know which direction to get to mcse.

I told them my wife applied for the position for me when my former company decided to down-sized in mar 05. At that time I was only an mcp but I have 8 yrs experience in windows client/server operations. I decided to do the mcdst and mcsa since I needed to find the right fit.

Anyways, the interviewer asked me how to find an ip address...after I told them my personal goal is to achieve mcse in 30 days. Dah thats like asking me if I know how to turn on a pc....blah blah blah...and its for a helpdesk position afterall.

Micro-mgt all over the job. I have never been micro-mg therefore I kissed that one goodbye. OVER QUALIFIED!!! MCSE doing a helpdesk job what in the world is this credential coming to now...

mikey_b

I've done some job profiling before, and it is common for companies to ask for MCSE because they do realise that it carries a lot of clout in the IT world. Even for low end jobs. I mean, if you open a help desk position and ask for MCSE's, and none applied, then no big deal, it's a help desk job, just take the most qualified person on the shortlist. If you do get an MCSE applying, and they demonstrate confidence and personality in the interview, and they really do want the job, then you have a new employee who can step up to any challange his role might offer and might find himself moving up in the company quickly, which looks great on the HR team. Over qualification doesn't exist in IT.

To be more accurate, companies should be requesting Microsoft certifications (MCP) in general if they use mostly Microsoft products. And I find a lot of times that job applicants with a few MCP exams (say, client and server) will get jobs over full MCSA or MCSE candidates if they indicate they are working towards MCSA/MCSE and do really well in the interview.

Use "job requirements" as a hiring guideline only, a friend of mine, never certified, never went to college, just got a big, fat IT job with the Government making 50k a year with pension and benefits. He is really outgoing and engaging in conversation and puts a heavy focus on client satisfaction. He needs to develop his knowledge in IT, but they were so confident in him handling client contacts they gave him the job.

NPA24

mikey_b wrote:

Over qualification doesn't exist in IT.

Over qualification does exist and it could hurt you in getting a job in IT. I was part of the hiring group and when I looked through resumes, so many people were overqualified. Most of them had more certifications that what was needed for the position. Of course, that individual could find a job that would better suit him somewhere else but my point is that over qualification does exist and it can prevent you from getting a job especially if your looking for an entry level position and you have like MCSE with no experience.

But you do have a great point in saying your personality and social interactions can go really far. That is a quality that hiring managers always look for. Soft skills is key in getting past the interview process.

This is still new to me though to be on the other side of the fence being the interviewer but I've learned alot and it is really tough getting an IT job from what I've heard from the people that I've interviewed.

jmc724

From another perspective, MCSE doing a helpdesk job means that for sure I wont be in that capacity long before I would say:

Thank you for paying me 16/hr now I will be doing systems engineering and my offer is blah blah blah.

Just a stepping stone into full-time employment...

Another is HR will ask you, what do you like most in doing this helpdesk job? Dah, I a freaking ceritifed blah blah blah...

Do you ever ask how come the world goes round and not up and down???

garv221

Alot of this "down playing" by employers you can blame on brain ****. Its sad but true. Some people are underqualified MCSEs.

PCHoldmann

Alot of this "down playing" by employers you can blame on brain ****. Its sad but true. Some people are underqualified MCSEs.

All too true.

mikey_b

NPA24 wrote:

mikey_b wrote:

Over qualification doesn't exist in IT.

Over qualification does exist and it could hurt you in getting a job in IT. I was part of the hiring group and when I looked through resumes, so many people were overqualified.

I've yet to see overqualification be a factor in getting a job. Not trying to argue with you, it's just what seems to be happening in my general area. Lots of techs, not enough good jobs. People are getting certified out the wazoo to try and get a decent job, but the market here is so saturated they'll jump on anything. Is this not the situation elsewhere?

mikey_b

moagm316 wrote:

do you think that if someone takes a classes and studies for the mcse that they are doing a brain ****? someone told me that about the CCNA and others. i disagree since in my program hands on is stressed as much as possible.

No, hands on training classes are much different than a braindump. In a braindump, people are just memorizing the answers to the exam questions (provided by other test candidates) and going in and passing the exam without learning anything in the process. It devalues certifications because people are passing exams, getting certifications, and getting jobs that they can't handle.

Also, a lot of people are claiming they are certified, and employers never bother to check their certification status to see if they really are or not. This also devalues the worth of certifications. A "pretend" MCSE trying to manage a complex enterprise infrastructure will fail miserably, had the employer asked to have the certifications published, they could have found out that the job candidate was trying to pull a fast one on them. A real MCSE would get a good feel for the environment quickly and almost immediately could begin administration tasks once they understood how the infrastructure was managed, while a "pretend" MCSE would quickly sink and would have a lot of learning to do in order to succeed.

I still believe in certifications, I believe there is no better way to determine someones knowledge in a given field of study than by working hard and learning it well enough to challenge the certification exam(s).

garv221

moagm316 wrote:

do you think that if someone takes a classes and studies for the mcse that they are doing a brain ****? someone told me that about the CCNA and others. i disagree since in my program hands on is stressed as much as possible.

No, like the previous posts, Braindumps are answers to the test. Its cheating..I honestly think people shouldn't jump into certification until they can grasp an understanding of what they are studying. People can pass tests byknowing what they need to know to pass the test & not fully understanding it. Alot of people do this, people need too work with an OS or switch/router & fully see the situation play out in their head & how it would be put to work to benefit a business solution. People should really grasp Infrastructures as a whole before running out to see how many tests they can pass. I guess you can blame HRs for putting so much pressure on IT to become certified that you have people taking tests that really should still be learning the fundamentals & that really puts a spin on the HR process, who qualifies & the actual job market. Its real discouraging to hear a Sys Admin position getting a couple hundred resumes..But honestly how many of those are actually qualified & what exactly is the HR looking for? So now we have people getting their certs to stand out in the resume pile & at the same time their de-valuing the cert by passing tests prematurely. IT almost reminds me of stocks & bonds.

keatron

One semester of dedicated work and a commitment to understanding the basics of networking is plenty to pass Net+. Did this guy have any certs? Doesn't sound like it.

Probably one of the funniest experiences I've had was an incident that happened last year. A guy sat in front of me on the train on my way to teach a 70-216 class through a known computer training company. This guy went on and on the entire hour explaining to the person in sitting next to him how well known he was in the "computer world" and how he had every cert known to man and god blah blah blah. I knew something was wrong when his explanation to the other passenger of dns was "that's the ip's you put in your computer to get on the internet". Well to show how small the world is, when I arrived at the training location and finished setting up the projector etc. I went to get a cup of coffee, when I get back, this guy is setting in the front seat of my class!!!!! We recognized each other at the same time because I smirked, and he turned cherry red and developed the "oh my god i'm screwed look" across his face. Needless to say this person was absolutely clueless and when we finally got to zones and zone delegations, he went to the bathroom and never came back. Moral of the story? Don't be discouraged by a negative minded person like that.

schwarztrader

Lots of techs, not enough good jobs. People are getting certified out the wazoo to try and get a decent job, but the market here is so saturated they'll jump on anything.

Yup, thats exactly where I fit in. I got the certifications and the on-job experience to back it up and I'm still having a hard time finding full time employment.......... Then again, so are all the other 10,000 people that are in the same boat applying for the same job I am.

You hit it right on the head, too many people for not enough jobs.

When I obtained my MCSE+Security my wife and I thought that I would be able to find a decent paying job since so many "good" jobs required it. I didn't get a "great" job, but I was able to get a good paying low-level position. Now that I'm unemployed, I almost feel that the MCSE+Security isn't worth much these days. From the response I'm getting, it feels like a entry level certification because of the economy/IT tech saturation. That in itself is the reason why i'm pushing for more certifications to put myself in a better position to get that job over those 10,000 other people.

garv221

moagm316, you will be fine, don't listen to people like that. This guy is like the one keatron was talking about, forget about those people. They are fake....Just study & have a desire to know everything it is your studying. I have kept myself up many nights learning information specific to the Systems & networks I am working on. Its almost an obsession to learn it so I can relax & feel confident. I hate having the feeling of not knowing how something is working & why its in place. As long as you study to learn, don't worry about what other peoples opinion. Just prove them wrong by keep moving foward with yourself.

mikey_b

schwarztrader wrote:

Lots of techs, not enough good jobs. People are getting certified out the wazoo to try and get a decent job, but the market here is so saturated they'll jump on anything.

Yup, thats exactly where I fit in. I got the certifications and the on-job experience to back it up and I'm still having a hard time finding full time employment.......... Then again, so are all the other 10,000 people that are in the same boat applying for the same job I am.

You hit it right on the head, too many people for not enough jobs.

When I obtained my MCSE+Security my wife and I thought that I would be able to find a decent paying job since so many "good" jobs required it. I didn't get a "great" job, but I was able to get a good paying low-level position. Now that I'm unemployed, I almost feel that the MCSE+Security isn't worth much these days. From the response I'm getting, it feels like a entry level certification because of the economy/IT tech saturation. That in itself is the reason why i'm pushing for more certifications to put myself in a better position to get that job over those 10,000 other people.

Yeah. I always had a few career paths planned in my head, but it's so hard to stand out above the pretenders who claim they have more knowedge and certifications than the real deal. It kills the resume, honestly. For me, anyways, I'm just starting down the MSCA path, and when you have a bunch of fakes claiming their MCSE status (some I know personally) it really kills my chances of getting an interview.

That's why I've been a contractor for almost 2 years now. But since I've had a chance to prove myself, my boss has let slip that if the hiring freeze were lifted, I would find myself permanently employed. It's relieving to see my hard work pay off, even if it isn't "big-time" payoff, just the comment made my hard work worth it (my boss is a tough customer). I just wish other companies would see it, too.