Why it's okay to leave a tech job at 5 P.M.

N2IT

Why it's OK to leave a tech job at 5 p.m. - CNN.com

Nice to see successful people debunking the myth that you have to stay at work longer than 8 hours.

Long hours doesn't equal productivity, infact it can be the opposite. I had a boss a while ago say to me, that I don't care how long you work as long as you deliver. If I was at work for 4 hours that day fine, as long as what needed to be done was taken care of. This is the truth, people that stay at the office for longer hours doesn't mean they are more effecient workers, in some of the cases it's the opposite.

Thoughts?

I remember hearing an interview from Tom Landry, successful coach for the Dallas Cowboys. He never stayed past 5:30 while coaching in the NFL. It's all about processes and making sure you maximize your time. Not the quantity of hours you spend.

I really liked this quote:
"Good for her! Life is way more important than work and I refuse to have to go to a funeral for a loved one before remembering that. I'll take family over developing the 'next big thing' anyway. I can always create new things, but I can't keep people forever."

jibbajabba

Some valid points I think - I do see it also that having next to now sleep is almost indeed considered "badge worthy" .. I also noticed a LOT that even leaving on time, which is valid, makes people look at you strangly ... I also cannot remember a day where I had a day off / weekend / afternoon where I haven't checked work mails at least once...

All that sometimes wants me to have a "normal" job ....

RomBUS

At my current job it is status quo that we leave by 5 PM or whenever our shift ends...its rare we do stay extra unless an emergency. I mean the business usually dies off at 5 PM EST except for a few people out in the West Coast that might call in.

In my past I felt I only needed to leave when other people started to, I never left the job first. Old habit

Everyone

IMHO, your opinion can change on this as soon as you have kids. Since my oldest was born when I was only 21, I learned this pretty early on in my career. I'd only ever stay late if there was an emergency that required it. No one ever gave me crap for leaving on time. Not only did I start leaving ASAP when my shift ended, I would remind people who routinely stayed late that "it will still be there tomorrow", and try to get them to leave on time with me.

swild

I work 7 to 4 and usually leave around 3:30 to avoid overtime, since I rarely get to take a lunch. My new boss said that I am never supposed to check my email after work. If it is important enough for me to get paid after hours, it's important enough to call me. I am technically on call 24/7 if anything blows up, since I am the only IT person in the building. If I do get a call after work, I am paid from the time I answer the phone until I am done, minimum of 15 minutes. Yesterday, I got a call at 4:45 because no one could figure out how to turn off the overhead projector(press the button on the remote). That 30 second phone call got me paid for 15 minutes of overtime.

When I was a manager, I ran a pretty loose ship. "Get your work done and make sure it's good quality, I don't care about the rest." Some people can't handle that kind of thing and need a strict structure. Those are the ones that usually get fired for one thing or another. I also don't believe in drug testing unless your job involves the safety of others. I will fire you because your work sucks, not because of a stupid excuse. I don't care if you are on drugs or not. There was a lot of productivity in the 80s thanks to tons of coke. "Moderation in all things," as that one saint says.

higherho

Yes it must be nice when you have teams or multiple IT people in the work force. How about the individuals who run the whole show and they have much more responsibilities than your typical IT individual? Many individuals here have to work 8 to 10 hours a day because their management doesn't think they need a second individual to help them.

networker050184

higherho wrote: »

Yes it must be nice when you have teams or multiple IT people in the work force. How about the individuals who run the whole show and they have much more responsibilities than your typical IT individual? Many individuals here have to work 8 to 10 hours a day because their management doesn't think they need a second individual to help them.

Find a new job with an employer with a clue!

As far as working late, I don't mind if there is something that needs to be done, but if that's everyday there is something wrong with the workflow.

arwes

My boss and I are generally out the door at 5, unless there's some maintenance that has to be done (which is rare - maybe every few months). And when I have to stay late, I keep up with the time that I'm working and take off early so they don't have to pay me OT. They've only paid me for OT one time, and it was because we worked most of a weekend due to a catastrophic server failure and they couldn't afford to have me out until things got back to normal.

the_Grinch

It's funny because our new VP has made several comments about people leaving exactly at 5 pm. My thought has always been, if you paying me till 5 pm then I stay until 5 pm. Makes matters worse when you see the entire company start skirting out at 4:30. I also have to agree about the single person bias. At my last job, you would always see those with families pop out 10 to 15 minutes early or come late due to <place kid excuse here>. But if I had tried that it was somehow a sin. Also, when it came to overtime or putting in extra time for an emergency it was always "well you're single with no family." Sorry didn't realize that being single with no family made me the defecto office work horse. Not trying to rag on people with families, but shared sacrifice should be expected. Just like smokers taking a smoke break on the clock, if a non-smoker did it there'd be a problem...

Daniel333

It's not so much the long hours, but the perception of hard work. Long hours are one way of getting noticed.

Also there are managers who don't agree with her. So much as they will find reasons to let go their employees for not doing it. I have worked at SEVERAL of those places. And just had a friend let go for "budget cuts" after they asked him to cancel his weekend vacation.

N2IT

higherho wrote: »

Yes it must be nice when you have teams or multiple IT people in the work force. How about the individuals who run the whole show and they have much more responsibilities than your typical IT individual? Many individuals here have to work 8 to 10 hours a day because their management doesn't think they need a second individual to help them.

That's a choice you make it doesn't have to be that way. Why should you be punished for poor management? I would bring it up to management and let them know how you feel.

ptilsen

Having overworked myself to the point of severe premature hair loss, I will agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing wrong with working a typical 9-hour, productive day. Health and happiness should always come before whatever task one is facing at work. It will indeed still be there tomorrow, but more importantly, you probably won't even remember it in a month. You certainly won't in a year or a decade.

However, I have to point out that the subject of the article is not in a tech job. Being COO of a tech company is not, in any way, shape, or form, a tech job, anymore than being a systems administrator at a hospital is a medical job. The article is aimed more at the technology industry than the profession, which is to say, it's not necessarily talking about "us".

All this being said, anyone working for a managed service provider or consulting firm will know that there is a very specific impetus driving longer hours: bill rates. My own CEO has said we should do non-billable work, but do it outside of business hours where possible to achieve billable goals. I'm not saying that's right or that I agree with it. I'm just saying that in some positions, there are pretty strong forces at play that want employees working well over 9 hours a day.

YFZblu

Great points being made here.

I work in an environment in which my boss actually grills me about why I haven't taken all of my vacation time. Health and family come first.

cyberguypr

I am a Windows sys admin. Although my manager is a good sys admin, he's more into paper pushing so the tech tasks are mostly mine. I never stay late unless something requires immediate and urgent attention such email being down, SQL or other CRITICAL system. Although nothing is 100% perfect we have worked hard to make sure things run smooth. Unplanned outages are extremely rare.

Every day I spend time reviewing schoolwork and playing with my daughter and that time is absolutely non-negotiable. It helps that my current employer doesn't mind if you leave early every now and then as long as your tasks, goals and objectives are being completed. More of a work smarter, not harder philosophy.

If you are working 10 hours that means something is broken: systems, processes, management or any combination of these.

At one point early in my career my help desk coworker got fired (bad tech with no common sense). I was running a 400 user helpdesk by myself. For every ticket I closed 6 more opened. It was impossible to catch up. I started staying late and working from home at night but that still didn't help. My manager noticed and called a meeting. She said "STOP. If you work late and/or from home you are sending the wrong message. You are doing a great job. Let things pile up. That is the only way the higher ups while see the seriousness of the situation". Smart woman. Best manager I ever had. I learned so much from her.

the_Grinch

cyberguypr wrote: »

I am a Windows sys admin. Although my manager is a good sys admin, he's more into paper pushing so the tech tasks are mostly mine. I never stay late unless something requires immediate and urgent attention such email being down, SQL or other CRITICAL system. Although nothing is 100% perfect we have worked hard to make sure things run smooth. Unplanned outages are extremely rare.

Every day I spend time reviewing schoolwork and playing with my daughter and that time is absolutely non-negotiable. It helps that my current employer doesn't mind if you leave early every now and then as long as your tasks, goals and objectives are being completed. More of a work smarter, not harder philosophy.

If you are working 10 hours that means something is broken: systems, processes, management or any combination of these.

At one point early in my career my help desk coworker got fired (bad tech with no common sense). I was running a 400 user helpdesk by myself. For every ticket I closed 6 more opened. It was impossible to catch up. I started staying late and working from home at night but that still didn't help. My manager noticed and called a meeting. She said "STOP. If you work late and/or from home you are sending the wrong message. You are doing a great job. Let things pile up. That is the only way the higher ups while see the seriousness of the situation". Smart woman. Best manager I ever had. I learned so much from her.

+1! Have seen this issue and always just did what I could and left the rest. Management can run the numbers and see that you are being fully utilized then realize it's time to hire.

ptilsen

cyberguypr wrote: »

At one point early in my career my help desk coworker got fired (bad tech with no common sense). I was running a 400 user helpdesk by myself. For every ticket I closed 6 more opened. It was impossible to catch up. I started staying late and working from home at night but that still didn't help. My manager noticed and called a meeting. She said "STOP. If you work late and/or from home you are sending the wrong message. You are doing a great job. Let things pile up. That is the only way the higher ups while see the seriousness of the situation". Smart woman. Best manager I ever had. I learned so much from her.

That's the right way to approach it, too. Our dispatcher just got back from two weeks of PTO which he had to take or lose. We've been understaffed and not able to get things scheduled in reasonable time frames. He indicated he might do some work during his vacation, and I told him I would disable his accounts until he was done if he did anything more than reply to email.

It's absolutely the best way to approach that. Don't overwork yourself and don't let your co-workers overwork themselves. It's really not good for anyone, and the best case scenario is that you're being taken advantage of as employees.

That doesn't mean there is no place for 50-hour work weeks, but that sort of expectation should be communicated before hiring and should result in 20-30% higher compensation than one would normally request.

DevilWAH

I have always had good agreements with management. They pay me a 37 hour week and that's what i will deliver with out fail. Out side of that its up to me. IF i feel like staying then I stay as I enjoy playing on network. But anything above my 37 hours is mind to do what I want with.

If i want to carry on with work work then great, but if want to play on a "personal" project or new ideas I will do that. And if if want to go home I will do that as well.

they have learnt well not to take advantage of it, and the fact that while I may "stay late" I do not "work late" unless there is a valid reason/emergency. And they all know that anything above 37 hours is competing with my family which when push come to shove will always win.

It seems to work well, with me mostly doing around 40 hours, but when I feel like it our the is a reason am happy to work 60/70+

The key is to make sure you managers know not to take advantage, if they start to expect me to always work extra hours they find I start asking for it as over time and sticking to my 37.

Some peopel go home and play games, or go to pub with mates, or chill out with the family. I chose to carrying on playing with networks in my own time, but that's what it is my own time and I make sure my company know that. As we say in the managed service world. Its a vlaue add, not a contractual agreement i bring.

b321618

shoot im out by 4:30

Psoasman

Excellent thread. It's very important to find that balance between work / home life. I work 10's, which makes for long days, but that extra day with the family is worth it. I am also allowed to work on my degree at work, so that saves time at home, too.

tpatt100

Psoasman wrote: »

Excellent thread. It's very important to find that balance between work / home life. I work 10's, which makes for long days, but that extra day with the family is worth it. I am also allowed to work on my degree at work, so that saves time at home, too.

If I didn't have a long commute I would be all over four 10's. Makes appointment setting so much easier.

spicy ahi

I totally agree with the article. When I first transitioned into IT, I would work long hours (12+) and weekends a lot of the time as well. It made me miss the early years for my two older kids and that's something I can never get back. I actually didn't slow down on purpose, my body forced me to slow down (heart attack and heart surgery) It's amazing how your prioitize after something like that. Now I come in to work half an hour early not to work, but to beat traffic and come in stress free. I read the morning paper, drink some hot cocoa, and chat with the early crew as they're on their way out the door. I leave work on time and now get home in time to bring my kids to their practices and/or to the movies or whatever. Best thing is, although I can't get back the early years with my older kids, I was blessed with a second set of babies and believe it when I say I spoil them rotten!

pcgizzmo

As I've gotten older I've seen the light. When your young and trying to make a name for yourself it's probably different but here is the reality of the situation.

When you work for someone you are leasing them part of your life. Some employers put a higher price on certain lives over others. For that fee you owe your employer a fair days hard work. What that means is a little different for everyone but by and large it needs to be equitable. If you work more than 8 hours and are salary they should appreciate that either through comp time, bonus, promotion, raises or a combination of all 4. In return you should work as much as you feel you need to get the job done. Obviously if there is a system outage or emergency then overtime will be needed and this is your job. What you shouldn't feel like you have to do is work over time just because you can or there is work to be done. There is ALWAY work to be done but it needs to be prioritized. You are leasing your life to them they don't own you.

Truth be known if you kicked the bucket tomorrow you would be replaced with another warm body that could do the same job and you wouldn't even be talked about a week later. The sooner people realize this then the better off they will be and longer they will live.

DevilWAH

pcgizzmo wrote: »

As I've gotten older I've seen the light. When your young and trying to make a name for yourself it's probably different but here is the reality of the situation.

When you work for someone you are leasing them part of your life. Some employers put a higher price on certain lives over others. For that fee you owe your employer a fair days hard work. What that means is a little different for everyone but by and large it needs to be equitable. If you work more than 8 hours and are salary they should appreciate that either through comp time, bonus, promotion, raises or a combination of all 4. In return you should work as much as you feel you need to get the job done. Obviously if there is a system outage or emergency then overtime will be needed and this is your job. What you shouldn't feel like you have to do is work over time just because you can or there is work to be done. There is ALWAY work to be done but it needs to be prioritized. You are leasing your life to them they don't own you.

Truth be known if you kicked the bucket tomorrow you would be replaced with another warm body that could do the same job and you wouldn't even be talked about a week later. The sooner people realize this then the better off they will be and longer they will live.

Exactly !

pacotaco

pcgizzmo wrote: »

Truth be known if you kicked the bucket tomorrow you would be replaced with another warm body that could do the same job and you wouldn't even be talked about a week later. The sooner people realize this then the better off they will be and longer they will live.

QUICK STORY: A lady in the implementation dept. was going to be coming in late. Her dog named Jake had died. One of the other ladies in the dept overheard the conversation popped her had up and asked what was going on. Jake died, her co worker told her. Oh, no, she said, who's going to work on my implementation?


My name is Jake. And I was working on her implementation.

N2IT

Wow that is really lame.

How was the relationship after that?!

erpadmin

I don't take issue with people who leave work at 5PM, because that's what their hour is.

HOWEVER, I do take issue with those who leave "on-time-all-the-time" who will call me five minutes before they leave. I made this developer hold while I fixed her issue (I told her flat out, she called me and if she hung up, I would drop this issue). I don't give two flying ----s about her kids, her work-life balance or any of that nonsense. My issue is that you don't call a fellow colleague at the end of the day just because it is convenient for you.

In any event, I just find that rude. If you want to be a 9-5er, more power to you. But don't be a 9-5er that asks a colleague to do something for you five minutes before you walk out of the door. That's just rude...

erpadmin

the_Grinch wrote: »

Also, when it came to overtime or putting in extra time for an emergency it was always "well you're single with no family." Sorry didn't realize that being single with no family made me the defecto office work horse.

I get the same kind of crap too, though in my case, it's more tounge-in-cheek, but like everything else that's quasi-inappropriate, that's how it starts.

I will make a promise to myself...I will not discriminate against those with families, but the minute they start hiding behind junior or princess, I will really start having issue (when I get to management.) And I'll make sure that it's totally legal too...

pacotaco

N2IT wrote: »

Wow that is really lame.

How was the relationship after that?!

I was on my way out the door at this time, it was maybe another month and I was gone.

I laughed it off, and thought to myself that I was right - it was exactly how I thought it was.

Zartanasaurus

Left at 5 today.

Psoasman

erpadmin wrote: »

HOWEVER, I do take issue with those who leave "on-time-all-the-time" who will call me five minutes before they leave. I made this developer hold while I fixed her issue (I told her flat out, she called me and if she hung up, I would drop this issue). I don't give two flying ----s about her kids, her work-life balance or any of that nonsense. My issue is that you don't call a fellow colleague at the end of the day just because it is convenient for you.

In any event, I just find that rude. If you want to be a 9-5er, more power to you. But don't be a 9-5er that asks a colleague to do something for you five minutes before you walk out of the door. That's just rude...

It's frustrating to work with people like that. I used to follow a person who would mention calls that came in 30 minutes before as they were walking out the door. That said, once you have get married and have kids, your priorities will collide more often.

jibbajabba

higherho wrote: »

Yes it must be nice when you have teams or multiple IT people in the work force. How about the individuals who run the whole show and they have much more responsibilities than your typical IT individual? Many individuals here have to work 8 to 10 hours a day because their management doesn't think they need a second individual to help them.

The reason bosses get away with it is because there are people like that who throw away their lifes for the sake of work. Sometimes something has to happen for them to realize "whoops, need more people" - why would they hire more if everything continues to run with one guy only ...

I think I would only invest "my life" in a job if I'd be self-employed and need to get the company off the ground ..