Degree or Certs?

tleade01

Hello all,

I have a associates degree in applied science and was wondering if it is even worth getting a bachelor's degree. I feel like I learn a lot more on my own and school gives me classes that are not related to IT at all. I feel like I am getting ripped off while I am sitting in a class that has nothing to do with IT. I feel like I learn more by studying for certs and looking up information on my own. I also have been at the help desk at Hewlett Packard for almost 2 years and want to advance in Networking. I only have windows 7 cert as of now and am studying for network +. School gets in the way of studying for certs as I am a full time student and full time worker. I feel like the more classes I take the more networking knowledge I lose. So I guess what I am asking is it better to take certs or get a degree to get my foot in the networking field?

Valsacar

A degree is always useful, in your case a few more certs might be a better start.

As for your comments on courses in a degree, there's more than just IT in a work place, that's where some of those non-IT courses come into play. Learning, and displaying, that you're a more rounded person/employee helps you move up.

Luckily, WGU exists and I think would fit what you want exactly. Work at your pace, self-study, AND get certs as part of the program. They're cheap (around 3k USD/6 mo and you do as much work as you can do). Here's the two network ones I see.

Network Admin:

Bachelor Degree in IT Network Administration | WGU College of Information Technology Online

Certs:

• Microsoft Certified IT Professional (MCITP): Server Administrator
• CIW Web Foundations Associate
• CIW JavaScript Specialist
• CompTIA A+
• CompTIA Project+
• CompTIA Security+
• Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist (MCTS): Windows 7, Configuration
• Cisco Certified Entry Network Technician (CCENT)
• Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA®)
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Windows OS Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Networking Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Security Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Web Development Fundamentals

Network Design/Management:

Network Design Degree | Online IT Degree | WGU College of Information Technology

Certs:

• Microsoft Certified IT Professional (MCITP): Enterprise Administrator
• CIW Web Foundations Associate
• CIW JavaScript Specialist
• CompTIA A+
• CompTIA Network+
• CompTIA Project+
• CompTIA Security+
• Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist (MCTS): Windows 7, Configuration
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Windows OS Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Networking Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Security Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate (MTA) Web Development Fundamentals

The certs/books/etc are all in the tuition. If you already have any of those certs they "transfer" in to the program. Your Associates will also transfer in (they would have to evaluate it to see how much).

NetworkVeteran

tleade01 wrote: »

I have a associates degree in applied science and was wondering if it is even worth getting a bachelor's degree.

That's a personal decision, just like dropping out of high school. The folks who graduate will have more options and a higher earning potential, all else being equal.

I feel like I learn a lot more on my own and school gives me classes that are not related to IT at all. I feel like I am getting ripped off while I am sitting in a class that has nothing to do with IT.

Pick a better school or program. 80% of classes in a good CS/EE degree program will be helpful in the workplace. I'd point out that many young people taking their first degree often undervalue classes related to soft skills such as writing, public speaking, etc. even though those sorts of skills can play an incredible role in differentiating yourself.

is it better to take certs or get a degree to get my foot in the networking field?

Either one can get your foot in the field. The choicest positions require both.

tleade01

Thank you for your responses. I just do not get what history or geography has to do with IT. I learned and took these types of classes all through middle and high school. Maybe I should transfer schools. I am going to look into WGU as it seems like a good fit for me.

Did either of you go to WGU? Just want to know your thoughts and opinions about the school and how it works.

Valsacar

A BA/BS is not about a specialty, it's about general education with a focus. A Masters degree is where you really specialize.

I'm currently with WGU doing a Masters in Information Security and Assurance and so far quite happy with it. The main points for me were the certifications and the self-paced aspect of the program.

BradleyHU

tleade01 wrote: »

Thank you for your responses. I just do not get what history or geography has to do with IT. I learned and took these types of classes all through middle and high school. Maybe I should transfer schools. I am going to look into WGU as it seems like a good fit for me.

Did either of you go to WGU? Just want to know your thoughts and opinions about the school and how it works.

i dont know what college teaches geography as a general course, but history is. i went to a b&m 4 year school, so i had to take all those types of classes your referring to. i'm glad i did tho. oral communication helped me learn how to make presentations and speak in front of an audience, finance, accounting, business law, calc, even the sciences still have all been helpful in ways i didnt think they would be. its more to a degree than just learning about programming, comp arch, OS's, networks, and servers....

dt3k

Seems like the same questions pop up on this board over and over. There is no answer to this question. You should try to do everything in your power to beef up your resume, including degrees, certs, internships, part time work, volunteer work, etc, etc. Every argument on this board seems biased in one way or another. A degree is extremely important and rewarding. It is always worth getting a degree. Personally I don't think I'll stop with school until I have a doctorates. Certain certifications are extremely important and rewarding. Eventually you get to a point in your career where not having a degree holds you back, very few people with degrees get held back because they don't have certifications. Your competition is studying and doing everything in their power to make themselves as marketable as possible. Personally it scares me to death knowing that there are others out there putting in more work than me. If you don't have the desire and thirst to spend your every waking moment eating, drinking, and breathing IT then you need to find another profession.

NetworkVeteran

tleade01 wrote: »

Did either of you go to WGU? Just want to know your thoughts and opinions about the school and how it works.

Western Governor's doesn't offer a CS or EE program. You'll have much more limited job opportunities, a harder time advancing, and often limited pay compared to someone who completes a more challenging degree at a state university or better. A good degree requires effort. There's no right or wrong answer. It's totally up to you.

BradleyHU

dt3k wrote: »

If you don't have the desire and thirst to spend your every waking moment eating, drinking, and breathing IT then you need to find another profession.

I dont agree with this. I love doing IT, and wouldnt trade it for another type of position right now....but i don't eat, drink, breath IT....its all about balance...life is too short to just be focused on just that...

tleade01

While reviewing all these posts I think what I am going to do is make a balance of school and certs. Maybe I will just go half time in school while studying some certs from now on. That way I will not have to make payments on my loans and gain more knowledge in networking while getting my bachelors. I appreciate all the posts with your opinions, it helped me out greatly!:)

Valsacar

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Western Governor's doesn't offer a CS or EE program. You'll have much more limited job opportunities, a harder time advancing, and often limited pay compared to someone who completes a more challenging degree at a state university or better. A good degree requires effort. There's no right or wrong answer. It's totally up to you.

Come out of the rabbit hole and join the rest of us in the real world.

TLeTourneau

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Western Governor's doesn't offer a CS or EE program. You'll have much more limited job opportunities, a harder time advancing, and often limited pay compared to someone who completes a more challenging degree at a state university or better. A good degree requires effort. There's no right or wrong answer. It's totally up to you.

Thanks, I'm sure everyone here that is attending or has attended WGU is glad to know that we do not have (or are not working towards) "A good degree".

Also, how would he (or anyone that gets a degree from WGU) "have much more limited job opportunities, a harder time advancing, and often limited pay compared to someone who completes a more challenging degree at a state university or better"?

Just wondering.

Alif_Sadida_Ekin

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Western Governor's doesn't offer a CS or EE program. You'll have much more limited job opportunities, a harder time advancing, and often limited pay compared to someone who completes a more challenging degree at a state university or better. A good degree requires effort. There's no right or wrong answer. It's totally up to you.

I too am intrigued with what you might have to say to defend this statement. Everything you've said is actually the opposite for me as well as others on these forums.

powerfool

Going part-time is a good option. You already have your associates under your belt and you have two years of experience; this is good enough for your current situation and progressing part-time should keep pace with your career, so long as you take classes at a minimum of half-time enrollment and keep going in the summers. Also, look into tuition reimbursement options that you may have so that you don't have to spend your own money; some folks shy away from it because they fear having to pay it back or being stuck in their job when a good opportunity knocks. This will be a risk, but I had two jobs during my undergrad and switched right at the end (it took me four years) and I didn't have to pay any of it back; some companies are more stringent about their policies than others. I am currently working on my masters and I believe that my company would attempt to enforce the repayment policy, at least by holding my unpaid vacation time, at a minimum.

Another consideration with self-paced programs is that you may be able to complete your program more quickly than you expect. If you peruse the forum you may find threads about folks trying to complete their BS at WGU in one term (six months) after transferring their AS and relevant certifications. This brings up another point... some employers have separate reimbursement pools for tuition and certifications. Perhaps you can get your employer to pay for the certs, and a bootcamp-style course, outside of the tuition reimbursement. A couple of former colleagues of mine are doing the WGU MS ISA program and went to internal bootcamp courses that our employer offered for the CEH and CHFI; work gave them training hours to cover it during normal work hours, paid for travel, and paid for the exam. It was much more expedient than self-study.

As for "harder" degrees... lacking one may close a door or two, but CS programs are outdated and overrated for 90+% of jobs (I am pulling that number out of the air... but the air around me is near my 13 years of experience). If you go with a more traditional school, consider taking harder math and science courses than are required for an IS program... like Calc and Physics. EE may be more valuable if you are looking at a job that wants a true engineering focus or you will be designing hardware at the electronic level (not assembling or designing systems, but the components).

The key is that you need to continually improve on yourself... especially in this industry. School, certifications, experience.... all of the above.

Valsacar

Good info from powerfool, it's close to what I am doing. My company paid for my bootcamp and certification for CISSP (owe them a year, halfway through it now), and they are paying for my MS as well. I decided to do the CCNA before I started, just to get one course cleared, which they also paid for (I did self-study, only took a few days to brush up).

I look at education assistance programs the same way I did when I was in the Army, it's part of my pay so I'm going to use it. Sure, I will owe them two years after my Masters is done, but they're a good company (so far) and 2 years is a pretty good deal.

NetworkVeteran

A degree says, "This university has certified that this is a person with high aptitude (the university's selection is process), with a strong technical fundation (the degree coursework), who is also well-rounded (the AA portion)." Obviously, some schools and degrees carry more weight, and a CS degree from MIT gets you much further than an IT degree from WGU. That's why people compete to get into there, even though a statistically significant percentage of the people who enter will never complete the degree they desire. I think this is fairly obvious. And I don't claim to have the ideal here.

Everything you've said is actually the opposite for me as well as others on these forums

I can't rememeber anyone with a CS/EE degree saying in real life, or posting on here, "Darn! I have a CS/EE. If only I had a WGU IT degree instead." Now, I have heard from folks who wished they'd earned their masters.

Also, how would he (or anyone that gets a degree from WGU) "have much more limited job opportunities, a harder time advancing, and often limited pay compared to someone who completes a more challenging degree at a state university or better"?

A CS degree from a decent school open more doors--IT, customer support, network design, network support, software development, software testing, etc. An EE degree is harder but additionally unlocks hardware-related positions.

As far as advancement/pay, whenever I do a job search, I find that the most desireable positions require a CS/EE degree and/or a CCIE. And yes, when I interview, work at, or hire for these cmpanies--I find they really can demand that. In fact, the best of the best compensated individuals have not just one of those but often an MS in CS/EE plus a CCIE.

Come out of the rabbit hole and join the rest of us in the real world.

To an extent, we choose the world we live in. In my world, I've never had a peer or superior with an MIS, WGU, or DeVry degree. I've made in the healthy six figures for a long time, and even that's due to make an upwards swing very soon.

PS - I'm not saying a CS/EE degree or CCIE is right for everyone. They both require much effort to reap the rewards. I always say, the most important thing in life, is to do what you enjoy (as long as it covers your head and fills your belly).

Valsacar

I work with people that have no degree and make that "healthy six figures" as well. Every job I've seen says something along the lines of "Four year degree in Computer Science, a related field, or equivalent experience." I'm in that magical 6 figure range, and did that before I had finished any degree (Mine is in IT, from Excelsior).

Here's one for CND-SP in DC, "Bachelors Degree in Computer Science or a related technical discipline, or the equivalent combination of education, professional training or work experience."

A Sr Analyst in VA, "Bachelor's Degree and 6 years or Associates Degree and at least 8 years in a related technical discipline, or the equivalent combination of education, professional training or work experience."

Application Programmer in MD, "Bachelors Degree in a Computer Science or related technical discipline, or the equivalent combination of education, technical certifications or training, or work experience."

DB Admin in MD, "Bachelors Degree in a Computer Science or related technical discipline, or the equivalent combination of education, technical certifications or training, or work experience."

Shall I continue?

TLeTourneau

I see the same thing Valsacar sees in my organization and on other job listings. I know that WGU is on the "accepted" list of schools where I work and we are VERY picky. I think that a CS degree is great if you're looking at a programming job (but certainly not required) and an EE degree is great if you're looking to design hardware but we are, in general, talking about systems design and administration and an IT degree is built for that type of position. Just because someone can write code or design a circuit board doesn't mean that the can manage a network, different skill sets for different jobs. As for the six figure thing, been there and done that. Why don't you ask Everyone what MS pays him?

paul78

To a certain extent, I understand what NetworkVeteran is saying.

The IT job market can be very competitive and if all things are equal, the individual with a degree from a more prestigious university is more likely to get hired. Or if the degree is foundational education such as EE or CS, that is likely to get someone further.

Ultimately, having a degree is better than no degree. And not everyone can get into Harvard or afford its tuition.
I don’t dispute that it’s possible to have a successful career with high compensation without a degree or certs. I am a college drop-out. But my path to a success career was a lot more circumspect.

tleade01

I have heard that you do not have to have a degree to be successful in the IT profession. My friend has no degree, no experience in IT, and about 4 or 5 certifications and has an excellent NOC job in Denver making more than double what I make.

Makes me kinda upset and confused because here I am with a associates in applied science for the CISCO option, almost 2 years of experience a help desk job with absolutely no benefits, but overtime pay and have not obtain a raise yet since I have been here at HP.

Every interview I get for networking ask me questions about things I have never even heard of. So that's why i feel I should drop out of school and feel like I am getting ripped off while I am in these pointless classes like history, geography, and group dynamics. I do not learn anything to do with networking since I hit the 2 year mark in college and feel like I am losing all my knowledge since I never use it at a help desk job.

Maybe it is just the area I live in? Maybe need to move out of state? Or did my friend just get really lucky and really is that hard to get out of the help desk job and get into networking?

Patel128

tleade01 wrote: »

So that's why i feel I should drop out of school and feel like I am getting ripped off while I am in these pointless classes like history, geography, and group dynamics.

Well (from my experience at my school) a majority of the non computer classes will help you in the job market. Classes like communication, english, and some of the others that I am forced to take do help. I would assume that if even if you are a CCIE, but you write like your 4 or you can't talk to groups of people without freezing up your not retaining jobs all that well. That's just my 2 cents on the non computer classes because believe me I thought the same thing my 1st two years of school.

NetworkVeteran

Patel128 wrote: »

I would assume that if even if you are a CCIE, but you write like your 4 or you can't talk to groups of people without freezing up your not retaining jobs all that well.

Very true! One reason I hold what others call a "high salary range ($140k-$200k)" position--with no travel, security, nor hazard requirements--is because my communication skills were judged superior to those of the CCIEs competing against me. It can sometimes be challenging to explain network technologies, designs, and troubleshooting to non-techies.

paul78

tleade01 wrote: »

I have heard that you do not have to have a degree to be successful in the IT profession. My friend has no degree, no experience in IT, and about 4 or 5 certifications and has an excellent NOC job in Denver making more than double what I make.

You don't need a college degree but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't get one. Well-known technologists who are college drop-outs include Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell. But that is an exception not the norm.

tleade01 wrote: »

Maybe it is just the area I live in? Maybe need to move out of state? Or did my friend just get really lucky and really is that hard to get out of the help desk job and get into networking?

Luck is a factor - but only you can influence your own career. If you want to be successful in IT, you don't have to live, breathe, and eat IT - but you must have a passion for it. And you have to be dedicated to the craft. I do strongly believe that. Maybe a change of scenery can help you - who knows - sometimes a change can be good.

Your posts imply that you are young and early in your career. Try to imagine where you want to be in 5, 10, 20 years. Would you regret not completing your degree? If you have kids, would you want them to know that you have a college degree?

You said “I feel like I am getting ripped off while I am sitting in a class that has nothing to do with IT. I feel like I learn more by studying for certs and looking up information on my own.”

IT is not just about knowing the contents of a certification. It’s about how technology can be applied towards solving a business need. A well-rounded individual will have the perspective to be more successful in business and their career. If you feel that some of your classes are not applicable, take more computer science and engineering classes if you can – add things like philosophy (the class on logic and truth which is very applicable to computing or on artificial intelligence). Math classes like discrete logic or statistics will last a lifetime for the IT professional. A good English writing class is invaluable. And any business class cannot hurt – even accounting.

I do not want to come across as preachy. I hinted earlier that I was a college dropout. At this point in my career, I have no incentive to ever get a college degree but that doesn’t mean that I don’t sometimes wish I finished it – only because it would have been fmy accomplishment – not for anyone else.

I dropped out because I couldn’t afford it – so if you can afford it – try to finish it.

Patel128

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Very true! One reason I hold what others call a "high salary range ($140k-$200k)" position--with no travel, security, nor hazard requirements--is because my communication skills were judged superior to those of the CCIEs competing against me. It can sometimes be challenging to explain network technologies, designs, and troubleshooting to non-techies.

That is where working in a retail store in the Computer department helps. Try telling a customer why a certain Intel/AMD processor is better than a different Intel/AMD processor.