How many of you have a B.S. in Computing & Engineering?

TheHammer

Something that has me cringing as I look into making a change into networking is the possibility that I couldn't get a job without a degree. I can't tell looking at it, but it seems like every other person has a B.S.

Is it necessary or can I still find an IT job without one?

N2IT

It can go either way........

But every environment I have been in most of the high level technicians had CS degrees or Engineering. You had your ERP and HRIS specialist who had business or math bachelors. Sometime you would find a really smart guy who played his cards right and had a BS in another degree. Usually the people without degrees were old timer admins of iSeries servers or managing the mainframes or DB2 databases.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule on this forum you will find a lot of them. But they are the loud minority in my opinion.

You get an engineering degree or CS from a good school you are in damn good shape.

I know a girl from a community college class who majored in engineering and computer science with an emphasis in SAP ERP. She is 24 years old and she is already working on her first SAP BASIS roll out. Pretty freaking amazing considering most ERP's consist of 10,000+ tables for starters. Not to mention all the other pieces, PSA, ODS, OLAP Processor, BDS, etc. It can get pretty beastly.

Sorry to get off tangent, but getting those degrees would help.

More can comment from the networking side, but if I had one piece of positive information, it is certifications seems to really carry you far into that world. Cisco certs can offset a degree in networking without a doubt IMO. Holistically speaking the CS or E wins every time.

ptilsen

Here's the short answer:
1. You do not need a degree to get your start in IT, nor to be highly successful in IT.
2. Getting a degree helps you get a start in IT, to be highly successful in IT, and ultimately to be a better IT professional.
3. You should get a four-year degree, but try to get a job, too. Take 50% or 100% longer to complete your degree if that's what it takes to get you experience concurrently with education. Get a certification or two to help. The degree should be from a respectable, regionally accredited, non-profit, public university and/or community college. The degree should be in computer science, electrical engineering, computer engineering, or similar. Experience is key, but there's no reason to come back in five years and wish you had the degree.

Here's the long answer:
Most entry-level and even mid-level IT infrastructure work is not greatly enhanced by what one will learn in CS, EE, CE, type of degree. In fact for entry level in particular, I would contend that a business or communications degree is more directly applicable. So, four-year CS grads looking to work in infrastructure (networking, systems, etc.) are generally going to find themselves woefully under-prepared for anything but very entry level helpdesk jobs. The knowledge and skills taught in those degrees can provide a great foundation, but they ultimately don't teach you anything about Microsoft or Cisco products, e.g., which means they don't teach you the bread and butter of infrastructure. Later in your career, and in certain specializations, some of that knowledge can come into play, but getting to the point at which you apply it without going into development (as opposed to infrastructure) can be a long, frustrating path.

As far as actual employment goes, I would contend that the vast majority of employers will take candidates for entry-level IT positions without college. Many will even take candidates lacking a high school diploma. Conversely, I would contend that the vast majority of employers value degree-holding candidates higher than others, and will even pay them a bit more. I would also contend that many, maybe most employers will not hire senior-level candidates who do not posses degrees. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and some highly specialized professionals who hold certifications that are the technical equivalent of doctorates or master's degrees can easily get hired for six-figure positions without so much as a diploma. These are the CCIE and MCMs of the world. There aren't many, and even they usually have some kind of post-secondary education -- usually computer science or engineering.

At the entry level, a degree can go a long way towards replacing a lack of experience that is, by definition, present in almost all entry-level candidates. At the mid and senior levels, a degree will always give you a leg up. Even a two-year degree is better than nothing, though I cannot stress enough that getting a two-year degree is not advised.

To give you some background, I started my professional career as a teenager. I worked a helpdesk position from roughly 3:00 to 7:00 after school, then went full-time after graduation. I was very fortunate to get that position -- the reality is that most organizations will not trust a high school student to do that type of job. That said, I will again argue that many, probably most will take a high school grad with no college experience or who is actively pursuing a college degree outside of business hours. I will say with no doubt that most will take one who has an A+, good interviewing skills, and a good resume -- I had all three, and that's how I got that job.

Moving on, I completed a two-year degree in ~2.5 years while working full-time in IT. This is an A.A.S. in Computer Networking Systems from ITT Technical Institute. The classes were more or less replicas of certification curriculum, though slight more practical. MCSE, CCNA, A+, Net+, and a bit of other non-cert tech classes and generals. While I can't describe the experience as totally lacking in value, at the end of the day we will call this a "fake" degree for the sake of brevity. I had already self-taught most of the material and certainly could have self-taught the rest faster and certainly without racking up $40K in debt that I now pay $600/month for.

Moving on, after finishing school I kept moving up in IT, getting a better job, more responsibilities, more experience, more certifications, and a lot more money. At least this much of my story is fairly typical, even for people who just get a two-year degree. The two-year degree, however, didn't help me much. My employer didn't care much about it, and most of the other jobs at my level I've looked at "prefer" degrees. The fine print there is "we like to hire educated people, but ultimately we just hire people we think can do the job". There are exceptions, but this is the standard.

But, I find myself in a conundrum. With all my experiences, skill level, and certifications, I am nearing a virtual salary wall. Without going for a highly advanced certification (CCIE, etc.), I am unlikely to surpass this wall without a B.S., and even without a Master's degree. Many of these positions that "prefer" degrees will still hire me, but certainly not for the money my career level would demand, at least in most cases. In terms of my career goals, I need a Master's degree to really get where I want to go, and a Bachelor's to get much further. Even in terms of the technical knowledge I'd like to have, much of it is exactly the sort of knowledge computer science programs impart.

If I had to do it all again, I would have started into the exact same program I'm starting into now at the exact same school. I would have probably worked the same jobs, made the same money, got the same experience, and have finished my degree in 5-7 years, making it finished or almost finished this year. I would be making more money, have less debt, more free time, and be happier.

So, to finish my long tale, my advice is to do what I wish I'd done. I am literally copying and pasting from my own post:
You should get a four-year degree, but try to get a job, too. Take 50% or 100% longer to complete your degree if that's what it takes to get you experience concurrently with education. Get a certification or two to help. The degree should be from a respectable, regionally accredited, non-profit, public university and/or community college. The degree should be in computer science, electrical engineering, computer science, or similar. Experience is key, but there's no reason to come back in five years and wish you had the degree.

KPLC

Very insightful advice from both N2IT and ptilsen.

Qord

Speaking only from personal experience: It's not 100% necessary. Nobody in my department has a computer related degree, I'm the closest to that being 2 classes away from an Associates in Net Admin. I do have an AS in Business Management, and hope to finish that BS in the next year or so. After that, who knows. I might pursue another degree, but in IT instead, but only because that's what interests me, and not because I think I need it.

From what I have seen, it appears that having a degree is much more important than what the degree is in.

ptilsen wrote: »

Another ptilsen bookmark

Thank you again sir!

N2IT

Honestly we can only speak from our experiences. Mine has shown me that it helps a lot, other maybe not. Bottom line you gotta figure out what works for you. Nobody can show you and nobody can do it for you. Each path has it's own uniqueness, yours will be no different.

MeanDrunkR2D2

When it comes down to it, if you are looking down the road in the future and you are applying for your dream job, but you are in a sticky situation if your competition has similar experience, but has that bachelors degree. Far too often they'll take that guy with the bachelors, even though you both are likely on the same level of intelligence. Anything that you can do to pad your resume and make yourself look better is a good thing. Definitely go for your bachelors degree in CS/EE/etc IT related degree. Personally, I'd do it slightly different myself.

First off, I wouldn't have waited so dang long to decide to go back to school and finish my degree. I set myself back a good 8-10 years in my career plans by slacking off at a young age and then in the early part of my career running into the recession. Although I think my college was great and taught me alot, the debt that I earned from there will haunt me the next 20 years while I pay it off. If I could go back, I'd pick up all the classes I could at my local Community College and then transfer those credits to a local university and finish my bachelors. I wouldn't get my associates just because of the extra fluff classes that won't matter when it comes to my bachelors degree. My debt then would have been significantly less in the long run, and would have the same degree I have now.

But I do know that it works to have the degree. While not necessary, it is something that will make you stand out as a positive when compared to someone without a degree. My current boss, and previous bosses chose me over the other candidates because I was the only one that had a degree.

N2IT

@ Mean

That's exactly what I did as far as course strategy. Hit the community college for a year took 33 credit hours and then transferred to the Missouri State University. I missed out on a great freshman year, but I made up for it soph - senior +

My parents paid for my bachelors, that was my graduation gift.

networkjutsu

I agree that AS degree is better than nothing, but I do not agree about the part that two year degree is not advised. Based on my experience, the two year degree gave me an opportunity to land a job that opened up opportunities that helped me get to where I am at right now. In my previous employer's eyes, it was important to have a degree. If you have certifications, and experience but no degree then you wont get a call to come in for an interview. If I was still in school racking up credits and debt, I would've not landed that job and most likely struggled finding a gig during school and after graduating from a four year college. I did struggle to find a job after receiving my AS degree, but at least I was only paying ~$15K debt for an AS degree and not $50K++ for a BS degree. I've met people who graduated from a four year college and also struggled to find a gig in their field. Heck, I used to work with one that went to UC school for BS CS degree and struggled to find an IT gig. The best he could do at the time was to be in the same gig as I was. I also met someone that graduated with a BS EE degree and found an RF Engineer gig with pay more than I was making after having 4 years experience. Just know that it can go either way so choose wisely.

I'd say this, go get the degree based on your situation. If your situation can only accommodate an AS degree, that's fine. It's not like you're not going to get credits from those courses, unless you went with non-regionally accredited school. While/after getting your AS degree, go get a job related to the field that you want and just go back to school for your BS while working. If your situation can accommodate a BS degree, go right ahead. Just expect that it is a different world out there and the debt that you racked up while going for your BS may not be affordable after school since you may struggle to find a gig related to your field of study. If you're fortunate enough to find a gig in your field of studying while going for your BS or after, then that's great. You've managed to be one of the fortunate people to land a good gig during and/or after school.

Here's something to think about, the hiring managers that hired me didn't seem to care if I had a BS degree or not. Heck, some didn't even know I had it. They only seemed to care about my experiences and few certifications.

ptilsen

It's rare to find an employers that truly values a two-year degree. Regardless of what they say, the reality is they would usually hire you with just a diploma and your experience, skills, and certifications.

I stand by the position that if you're going to take the time to get a degree, you should get at least a four-year. Get an AA or AS on the way if the credits transfer, but don't let the goal of having a degree distract from the goal of having a good degree.

networkjutsu

Yes, go get at least a four year degree. It should be everyone's goal. It'll be better to get it while you're young too. However, go get your two year degree in the process. It doesn't really hurt to get it anyway. I just didn't agree with the fact that you said "getting a two-year degree is not advised". I will, however, agree that you shouldn't stop at the two year degree though.

MeanDrunkR2D2

The only reason I'd advise against a 2 year, is because you end up having to take extra classes for that degree, when you could focus more on the bigger scale and keep costs down by taking all the classes you can get to transfer to a 4 year school and then get your Bachelors. I'm not saying that a AAS is worthless, but if it won't matter and you'll have a Bachelors shortly after that it makes little sense to go that route. Once you have the bachelors, you won't care about the AAS. Depending on the school you go to, you can easily tag on another 2k or more to the costs just to get the AAS, when it's not needed if your goal is the bachelors. Now, if you just want the 2 year and are thinking about getting a bachelors, or will have a big gap between those two, then get the AAS. Otherwise, don't bother. Keep costs (and your loans) down. Work as much as you can handle while you are in school to help keep your debt down as well. If you're lucky you can escape the whole process with very little owed after you graduate. I learned the hard way, and will be happy to help others not make the same mistakes I did when it came to those loans.

cxzar20

The bottom line is that you are at a competitive disadvantage without one. There are some companies (such as my employer) who will not hire a network engineer under any circumstance unless they have a four year degree minimum. They may hire you in the NOC here, but generally only if you have lots of experience such as ex military telecommunications guys. The argument can be made that a college degree doesn't necessary help you in your knowledge of infrastructure (depends on where you go), but the fact is that it will end up hurting you in the end when your resume is lacking a crucial credential come crunch time. Trying to break into the IT field is even tougher without a degree than once you are already established.

Good luck to you

networkjutsu

That's why it's important to map your two year degree properly with the four year degree that you want to take so you don't take extra classes that you don't need to.

In the other divisions of my previous employer, they didn't care if you only had high school diploma. You can be a network engineer, or director as long as you're capable of doing the job. Then when 2008 hit, everything changed. You can't even get an interview for a network engineer job if you don't have a current CCNA even though you've been doing it for more than 5 or 15 years. All the director level folks that didn't have degree started leaving/was let go.

Yes, bottom line is to get your four year degree so you don't lose opportunities.

jtoast

I got my current job using just experience and earned my BS while I was here. A Friend of mine just got hired on the same team and his Masters degree started him at the same paygrade I'm at but he has much less responsibility. He basically does less for the same money while I train him.

Were I to have had a degree when I got here I would be making much more money than I am now. Unfortunately to try to get that bump after the fact would take a change in employer and I like my current company.

MickQ

Exactly what everyone else here has said.
It will also give you a good background on the wider aspects of IT: how hardware works and why, programming (how), and possibly covering the theory of what the industry certs cover (networks, servers, etc.). It all depends on the course programme.

Oh, and go for a 4 year degree. In a world where your highschool dip is being replaced by a 2 year degree, you need something to stand out from the crowd.

Akaricloud

In my opinion it really depends on the person and situation. Personally if I had to do it all over again I'd go degreeless and would most likely be in the same, if not a better, position than I am in now. I found most of my classes taught me subjects that I already knew and those that were new to me were better learned on my own. I would literally read my textbooks cover-to-cover in one sitting, skip classes and then set the curve on tests.

On the other hand, I see all too often people in technical positions that NEED the basics that four-year degrees provide. If your writing, reading, communication, math or logic skills are that much lower than other applicants then you bet you're not going to make it far.

In summary here is my position on the subject:

If you feel you're only missing the technical portions of a degree then grab some certs, gain some experience and you'll do fine proving yourself along the way.

If you lack the basics to compete in a very competitive market or to teach yourself the technical side then a degree is most likely worth your time and money.

paul78

Akaricloud wrote: »

In my opinion it really depends on the person and situation. Personally if I had to do it all over again I'd go degreeless and would most likely be in the same, if not a better, position than I am in now.

I chose to go degreeless (is that a real word ). But I do think that odds to success go down a bit. And while the lack of a degree has not impacted my career growth, I suspect that it is probably uncommon. I agree with you that it can be done - it's just not the norm.

ptilsen

Akaricloud wrote: »

In my opinion it really depends on the person and situation. Personally if I had to do it all over again I'd go degreeless and would most likely be in the same, if not a better, position than I am in now.

Having creeped on your LinkedIn, I will say this:
You're completely right, in my experience. A degree wouldn't have been necessary to get where you are now. But in 1-3 years, you might have found yourself in my shoes: career-limited by a lack of a degree.

Akaricloud

paul78 wrote: »

I chose to go degreeless (is that a real word ). But I do think that odds to success go down a bit. And while the lack of a degree has not impacted my career growth, I suspect that it is probably uncommon. I agree with you that it can be done - it's just not the norm.

Degreeless is a real word actually! (You'd know that if you had a degree :P)

While I do agree that it's uncommon to not have any affect, I'm saying it's possible to not let it have one. It definitely takes a special type of person but when done right it can actually work to your advantage. A company that refuses to hire someone that lacks a degree because they felt that their time was better used obtaining many industry relevant certs and gaining 4-years real-world experience is one that I don't want to work for.

paul78

Akaricloud wrote: »

Degreeless is a real word actually! (You'd know that if you had a degree :P)

Lol - and it's really embarrassing how bad my spelling is too.

Akaricloud wrote: »

While I do agree that it's uncommon to not have any affect, I'm saying it's possible to not let it have one. It definitely takes a special type of person but when done right it can actually work to your advantage. A company that refuses to hire someone that lacks a degree because they felt that their time was better used obtaining many industry relevant certs and gaining 4-years real-world experience is one that I don't want to work for.

I whole-heartedly agree. But having to defend that to an prospective employer is a hurdle that most people don't have to do.

ptilsen

Akaricloud wrote: »

A company that refuses to hire someone that lacks a degree because they felt that their time was better used obtaining many industry relevant certs and gaining 4-years real-world experience is one that I don't want to work for.

It's not just about whether they'll hire you; it's about how much they'll pay you. At the end of the day, two candidates with similar experience and certifications are not in the same pay grade if one has a degree and the other doesn't. The degree adds value, just like the certs do.

They aren't mutually exclusive, and they both add value. Neither compares to the value of real skill and experience. That's why I recommend getting certs, a good degree, and experience concurrently.

Edit: Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who recently said something to the effect of "I'd rather hire a high school grad with an A+ than a Master of [x] with no experience to do an entry-level helpdesk job, since the former has proven some knowledge of basic computer hardware/software and the latter hasn't." It's about balance. A good degree combined with good experience and the right collection of certifications is far more valuable than someone with just certifications or just a degree.

paul78

ptilsen wrote: »

You're completely right, in my experience. A degree wouldn't have been necessary to get where you are now. But in 1-3 years, you might find yourself in my shoes: career-limited by a lack of a degree.

I also jusat t creeped into your LinkedIn - I am actually surprised to hear that your felt that your career is somehow limited by a lack of a degree - or perhaps you meant the right type of degree.

Perhaps it's just the current economic climate today - I was fortunately to clear the early career hurdles in different times.

For me - career growth has always been about maintaining strong business relationships and networks. I also made a decision early in my career to focus on an industry where IT as a business support function was highly relevant to that industry's success - specifically - financial services.

ptilsen

paul78 wrote: »

I also jusat t creeped into your LinkedIn - I am actually surprised to hear that your felt that your career is somehow limited by a lack of a degree - or perhaps you meant the right type of degree.

Well, my A.A.S. is worthless. I've got some great experience under my belt, but ultimately I'm not going to get past a certain threshold without that degree. Any job I'd apply to today wants one, and some require them. Many, maybe most of those employers simply won't pay me what I'm worth without that piece of paper. I think I'd be in a better position with almost any type of four-year degree, but a BS in CompSci is the best for this field, IMO.

Not that that's the only reason I'm going to get a degree. I'm legitimately very interested in computer science. Maybe it will be a piece of cake, but maybe I'll learn something really valuable. Maybe I'll realize I missed my calling as a developer, or I'll find renewed interest in Linux. Maybe it will help me break into technical security and out of generalist systems engineering. At worst, it might make me worth another $5 or $10 thousand a year.

paul78

ptilsen wrote: »

It's not just about whether they'll hire you; it's about how much they'll pay you. At the end of the day, two candidates with similar experience and certifications are not in the same pay grade if one has a degree and the other doesn't. The degree adds value, just like the certs do.

That has never been my experience - at least not in IT serving the financial services industry. Pay is strictly based on performance and overall contribution to the success of the organization.

GAngel

I have a CS form a top 10 school. After your first job its not that important anymore unless you're looking at Google, APL, MS etc right out of school.

ptilsen

paul78 wrote: »

That has never been my experience - at least not in IT serving the financial services industry. Pay is strictly based on performance and overall contribution to the success of the organization.

If you stay with the same organization I'm sure that's true. But if and when you move to a new organization, they can't really judge your performance before-hand. Your initial pay is going to be based on a value derived from your qualifications, which consist of your education, experience, hard skills, soft skills, and certifications.

Even outside of initial pay, there are organizations that will ultimately either limit or at least derive your compensation from your education, or limit your professional growth opportunities by your education (which indirectly limits compensation). I won't dispute that this might not be the case in some industries or organizations. In fact my own employer doesn't especially care about education -- it's valued, but it's not a requirement for any technical positions, and ultimately we are compensated based on performance, then certifications, with education bearing virtually no impact. But that's my current employer -- who knows where I'll be in two years, or five, or ten?

paul78

ptilsen wrote: »

Not that that's the only reason I'm going to get a degree. I'm legitimately very interested in computer science. Maybe it will be a piece of cake, but maybe I'll learn something really valuable. Maybe I'll realize I missed my calling as a developer, or I'll find renewed interest in Linux.

That's great to hear. I sincerely wish you success.

Perhaps it's really just having the right type of base knowledge and experience to get you over that hurdle. As you know from previous threads we have traded, I don't have a degree and it wasn't until very late in my career (last winter) that I gained an interest in getting a certification. While I am a college drop-out - I did start a degree in electrical engineering but attempted to switch to computer-science half-way during university. I had accepted a job as a teaching assistance in the computer science department and I simply found it more interesting.

Having that foundation - even if I did drop-out - really did help me through-out my career. I also never believed in specializing in any particular technology area. It was partly driven by fear of being pigeon-holed - and I have always been very ambitious.

I guess my real motivation for commenting on this thread is that I really just want folks to think that having a degree or some specific certification is a magic bullet to success.

paul78

ptilsen wrote: »

If you stay with the same organization I'm sure that's true. But if and when you move to a new organization, they can't really judge your performance before-hand. Your initial pay is going to be based on a value derived from your qualifications, which consist of your education, experience, hard skills, soft skills, and certifications.

I actually would have no experience with that. I tend not to stay in the same organization or company for too long. I am currently comtemplating another move but finding the right opportunity is what takes the most effort. I do have some collegues at my current employer that have been with the company for 20-30 years. But they admit that they lack a more broad view of the world.

ptilsen wrote: »

who knows where I'll be in two years, or five, or ten?

And that is all part of the adventure which makes it exciting. I've been doing this for nearly 25 years. And I still look forward to what's coming around the corner.

kurosaki00

B.S. in C.S. here