Microsoft: to make a "major" announcement (Tablet)

jibbajabba

The only way to compete properly with Apple on the tablet market is if the price is right. I have the sneaky suspicion that the Pro version will be 1k+ and therefore wouldn't really fit in anywhere .. Most iPad user I know (including myself) use it in between standalone PCs and laptops. Its a convinient way of browsing the internet, read emails and maybe do simple gaming. In my case I also use it to administrate server via RDP and vSphere Cluster using the iPAD client, but that is rare.

Now the "Surface" ... If it costs as much as the iPad or only slightly more - then "I am in" .. If it is around the price I'd be guessing (1k ish) then what is it exactly ? Who are they targeting ? The laptop user, the ultrabook user ? PC user ? Clearly not the tablet (iPad) user at that sort of price tag ... I'd prefer saving half the cost but have the limitations an iPad brings.

Would you prefer a tablet over an Ultrabook / Laptop at a similar price ? Doubt it ..

So many questions only time will answer

the_Grinch

The good thing is it's Microsoft and they'll take a lose for awhile to see if the product will succeed (think Zune). The issue is all about apps, that is what will make or break them. I haven't seen anything to make me believe they are making the push for app developers, but who knows.

tpatt100

Microsoft offers financial incentives for app developers for Windows Phone so I bet they will do the same for the tablet.

demonfurbie

tpatt100 wrote: »

Microsoft offers financial incentives for app developersk for Windows Phone so I bet they will do the same for the tablet.

How well is that working out?

tpatt100

demonfurbie wrote: »

How well is that working out?

App development and sales of handsets when iPhone and Android got a large head start? Or are you assuming app development will naturally increase sales of phones?

All Microsoft has to do is focus on offering financial incentives to the mainstream apps that most people want/use to build a base.

Flurry: Windows Phone app development catching up to Android - FierceMobileContent

Application development projects targeting Microsoft's (

NASDAQ:MSFT

) Windows Phone mobile operating system have increased 600 percent over the last 12 months, according to new data published by app store analytics firm Flurry.Total Flurry project starts (defined as developers setting up an app for analytics tracking prior to launch) have grown by roughly 50 percent over the last year. As of the second quarter of 2012, Windows Phone builds account for 4 percent of all Flurry partner projects, up from 1 percent the previous quarter. Apple's (NASDAQ:AAPL) iOS fuels 67 percent of new Flurry projects, down from 71 percent in the first quarter; Google's (NASDAQ:GOOG) Android follows at 28 percent (up from 27 percent), and Research In Motion's (NASDAQ:RIMM) BlackBerry remained flat at just 1 percent.

"If we look at just Android and Microsoft in the month of June, for every Windows Phone new project started, four have been started for Android," writes Flurry Vice President of Marketing Peter Farago on the firm's blog. "Considering the much smaller Windows Phone installed base compared to Android, Microsoft is currently over-indexing. From Google's point-of-view, this must elevate Microsoft from an 'also-ran' to a potential competitive threat with the resources and know-how to kick-start momentum and mount a campaign to reel in the second-place player."Flurry credits mounting developer interest in Windows Phone to a number of factors, including continued frustration over Android fragmentation, concern for increasing competition on iOS and dwindling faith in BlackBerry. "Whatever the reason, it's clear that Microsoft still knows how to attract third-party developer support," Farago adds. "Flurry expects Microsoft to make continued headway over the course of 2012."

More than 70,000 companies have integrated Flurry Analytics across more than 190,000 applications. Earlier this month, gaming giant Activision Publishing announced it will leverage Flurry's analytics and advertising platforms to help developer partners more effectively promote and monetize their mobile games.

Qord

I'd really like to know more about enterprise integration, maybe I could talk the boss into paying for a few for the whole team! I'm very interested to see what kinds of programs will run on it. As others have said, if it runs regular x86 programs I'd definitely consider it if it hit the right price point. And that number will have to be based on future details, but I've been saving for a "treat" and I'm starting to get anxious, ready to splurge a little.

RobertKaucher wrote: »

So you are expecting twice the features at less than half the price and then it will be acceptable to you?

That's about how I feel. It's not so much about having ridiculous expectations, but more about what a product is worth to me. I'd love an iPad...but to me it's not worth the hefty price tag. Same goes for any decent tablet, laptop, or any other gadget...to me, it's only worth what I'm willing to pay for it, not what they ask me to pay for it. I'm also "frugal", even though my friends call me cheap.

That's why I'm still rockin' this 12 year old IBM G40!

DevilWAH

Qord wrote: »

I'd really like to know more about enterprise integration,

Indeed where will it upstage what we already have? All the main players have spent years developing solutions for IPhones and Android. Th whole focus is now web based access to company networks.

I can already run my iphone as a company IP devices, managed and secured by the IT services.

and I can provided my users the core apps such as email the main players have there solutions and any thing else can be web based.

will company's want to go back to supporting yet another device, The Blackberry is starting to die because apple and android are the main players and can be supported by a single infrastructure, why have a blackberry server as well?

I still cant see what this will offer over the other devices, and if its more expensive even more so.

Webmaster

They've been using "Surface" for years, I'm surprised they are reusing it for a tablet. I think it might actually do well though. If it won't gain them a large(r) share fast it may at least prevent some people from switching to Apple. Many companies will prefer a Microsoft Windows device for their employees and when those get/are used to Windows 8 at work they might choose a Windows tablet at home as well, this worked so far for Microsoft.

I assume the Pro version, with Intel i5 cpu, will run (some) x86 software and the RT with Nvidia Tegra 3 cpu (ARM architecture) won't. Regardless, there are many experienced Windows developers out there who can now target Windows phones, tablets, and a popular desktop OS using Visual Studio, a great dev suite. I don't think there will be a problem with a lack of good software for long.

tpatt100 wrote: »

Man that thing is "wide".

I liked it better when it was still table size

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NesSYWODmM

It seems they haven't revealed the screen resolution... if it were better than the retina display on the new iPad they probably would have.

RobertKaucher

I think the major reason that MS has done this is that their manufacturing partners are not innovating anymore. If you look at the fiasco that was the "Windows Vista Capable" PC you will know exactly what I mean. MS went to PC manufacturers and said you guys need to meet these specs for Vista Capable and the mfgs said, "No way! We can't do that." MS eventually backed off and this is what gave Vista the reputation for being slow.

I also believe that MS sees that eventually they are going to have to slash the price of Windows to compete with Apple and Android. I am making a prediction that I don't believe I have articulated on this forum yet: Windows 8 will be either the last or the next to last Microsoft OS that is priced the way Windows has been in the past (i.e. around $125 retail for full non-system builder).

Why Microsoft's Surface Tablet Shames the PC Industry - Businessweek

Iristheangel

Good link, Robert. According to this article, the second Surface will have a better Intel processor which will allow you to install and use all your Windows 8 and previous Windows software. THAT might make it worth it. If it works seamlessly and I can install all my programs, I'll pick one up.

tpatt100

I think the next hardware release will be the one I look at since Microsoft will listen to feedback and make changes. I learned this from the original Kindle lol

@RK I think you are right. Apple sells the home OS for 30 dollars. The current trend of home personal computing is going towards tablets and phones for everyday stuff like shopping, social media, entertainment. That is the stuff that drives regular income vs the once in a blue moon PC hardware replacements. Microsoft as usual is late to the game of making money off the app market but at least they have Office for iOS and Android (well I thought they had Android).

Webmaster

@RK:The ARM version (Windows RT) is sold to manufacturers only and included with the tablet so from a consumers perspective that one will be as free as the OS on Apple and Android tablets. You make an interesting point nevertheless, I wonder what the Windows 9 RT update will cost. They don't compete as much with Apple and Android when it comes to the other Windows versions though.

ptilsen

Iristheangel wrote: »

Good link, Robert. According to this article, the second Surface will have a better Intel processor which will allow you to install and use all your Windows 8 and previous Windows software. THAT might make it worth it. If it works seamlessly and I can install all my programs, I'll pick one up.

Yes, the x86 version runs Windows, just like any PC. It can run any applications for which its hardware is powerful enough. It even has HDMI output, and I highly suspect MS or at least an OEM is going to make a Surface tablet with docking capabilities. The intent might be to compete with Macs and tablets, but I suspect all desktops, laptops, and tablets are going to be replaced by these, in many cases.

I truly believe this is going to consume most of the laptop market and some of the remaining desktop market. Everything but DTR/gaming and netbook is going to be largely made obsolete by this. Right now, I feel the need to own a laptop, a tablet, a smartphone, and a desktop. After Surface, I think I will only need three, and most people will be able to get away with one or two of the four.

Disclosure: I am long MSFT and APPL.

RobertKaucher

tpatt100 wrote: »

I think the next hardware release will be the one I look at since Microsoft will listen to feedback and make changes. I learned this from the original Kindle lol

@RK I think you are right. Apple sells the home OS for 30 dollars. The current trend of home personal computing is going towards tablets and phones for everyday stuff like shopping, social media, entertainment. That is the stuff that drives regular income vs the once in a blue moon PC hardware replacements. Microsoft as usual is late to the game of making money off the app market but at least they have Office for iOS and Android (well I thought they had Android).

I don't think this is them playing catch up, though. This is consistently a strategy with MS. Be late to the game, but learn from what the others didn't do right and then subsidize the crap out of it. Although I do think they dropped the ball with Win Phone 7 a little bit. Mostly because of the Kin. That was the MS Bob of the phone world. People just don't want something that is perceived to be a condescending, stripped down version of something better.

Webmaster wrote: »

@RK:The ARM version (Windows RT) is sold to manufacturers only and included with the tablet so from a consumers perspective that one will be as free as the OS on Apple and Android tablets. You make an interesting point nevertheless, I wonder what the Windows 9 RT update will cost. They don't compete as much with Apple and Android when it comes to the other Windows versions though.

True, What I was hitting at really was on the retail side for upgrades, etc. People are not going to pay $100 to upgrade the OS on a $400 device. Granted the x86 version will likely be closer to $700, but I'm thinking once the tablet wars are fully under way and we see prices drop and hardware really gets better.

tpatt100

Microsoft hinted back at the early XP days of getting rid of retail operating systems and just license it for business and new PC purchases. I doubt there is much of a market from it anyways.

RobertKaucher

I just wonder if MS is waiting on next gen of the 3d procs for the x86 version of this...

demonfurbie

i also see an issue of consumer misconception, the RT one will still have the Windows name so normal (non IT) people will assume it will run there old apps/games when it really wont

that could really hurt sales/reviews

edit: add some history in here

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-3121_7-57456088-220/a-brief-history-of-failed-windows-tablets/?ttag=fbw

bdub

demonfurbie wrote: »

id love to play mmorpgs on it but if it can only play games like angry birds and costs more than a mid priced android tab i dont see a point to it

The Pro version will have an Ivy Bridge CPU, you'll be able to play a lot more than the likes of angry birds thats for sure.

ptilsen

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I just wonder if MS is waiting on next gen of the 3d procs for the x86 version of this...

Was waiting, you mean? This isn't a concept. MS demo'd functioning units of the x86 and ARM variants. Most specs aren't released, but it's built using hardware that already exists.

Windows Newsroom
14:00-29:00. They demo the x86 version around 19:00.

WafflesAndRootbeer

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I just wonder if MS is waiting on next gen of the 3d procs for the x86 version of this...

The CPU you are probably thinking of is Broadwell/Airmont and that is coming in 2014 as a consolidated CPU/GPU/Controller sammich that is small enough to be perfect for tablet use.

joehalford01

I hope they come through, I feel like Microsoft has been really on the ball when it comes to Windows 7, 2008R2, and even Xbox. I really hope they pull off Windows 8 and if these are priced right, they could really compete. The price may really be the deal breaker on these.

Plus, I would love a full blown tablet with Windows that would let me create content and be within the price range of an ipad, I'd be all over that!

DevilWAH

ptilsen wrote: »

Was waiting, you mean? This isn't a concept. MS demo'd functioning units of the x86 and ARM variants. Most specs aren't released, but it's built using hardware that already exists.

Windows Newsroom
14:00-29:00. They demo the x86 version around 19:00.

Watching this and I still don't see the breakthrough. Others have tried and failed with the laptop/tablet hybrid, because there is not a market for it. Ultralight devices just can't compete for number crunching or serious gaming with a desktop/laptops. So people are still at home going to have a "real PC"

which leave the tablet market as it currently is, which is a portable device to carry out simple tasks, not as a work horse. Some thing the next generation of kids have already seen. Us old looks look at the table as a evolution of the desktop, Like we look at the DVD as an evolution of the Video tape. But for the new generation the "Tablet" is a distinct piece of technology. And companies are seeing this as well, that with in business tablets have a very small market share. They are not going to replace desktops for office workers, or machines for developers.

What companies want are nice simple (cheap) devices that allow mobile uses to access email and office applications on the move. Some thing that apple and android already do. With the push of "bring you own device to work" most compinies are already pushing ahead with solutions geared around apple and android, and indeed one good thing is here are single solutions out there that support both already.

Are they going to wan to implement a further solution to support a Microsoft device. Blackberry is already seeing the affects of this as people see that by having a structure that supports peoples own devices there is no need for the over heads and cost.

If Microsoft can jump on the band wagon with the whole Bring your own device to work. If they try to go it alone in a new direction, I don't see enough people going along to create a snowball effect it needs. Its a bit like BING, nothing wrong with it, but nothing amazing enough to make me change my search defaults.

RobertKaucher

DevilWAH wrote: »

Watching this and I still don't see the breakthrough. Others have tried and failed with the laptop/tablet hybrid, because there is not a market for it. Ultralight devices just can't compete for number crunching or serious gaming with a desktop/laptops. So people are still at home going to have a "real PC"

Right now you are correct, but for the very near future you're just plain wrong. Intel's official road maps for processor architecture over the next 3 years is moving faster than Moore's law due to 3d transistors. If they pull it off, and there is no reason to think they will not be able to do it, you will see mobile sized processors running at current i5 speeds within 3 years and i7 speeds on the heals of that. The same sort of size reduction with improved performance is happening with RAM. The first gen x86 compatible Surface tablet is going to have USB3 and HDMI out. This means you will be able to use it with a standard keyboard, monitor, and mouse as well as a grab and go mobile device. It's a highly flexible i3 laptop replacement. I'm telling you, you will have workstation replacements that are tablets in 5 years in the enterprise. They will have full docking capabilities with standard keyboard, mouse, and monitors but you can pick them up and have a < 2lb tablet for answering email and doing light work while on the road. You cannot look at the way laptops replaced desktops and expect to see the same adoption rate. What you are going to see is a similar adoption rate compressed in time by a factor of 3. Come back to this thread in 3 years and call me out on this if I am wrong. But Apple, Microsoft, and Intel have all bet the farm on this and I seriously don't believe that they are wrong.

There will always be a place for heavier devices like the desktop or laptop among niche groups like gamers and people doing serious video editing. This is because technology follows a similar rule to living things in an ecosystem. If a calorie source appears in any ecosystem, something will evolve to consume it. If a technology increases its performance vastly, existing systems will evolve to take advantage of it. Serious games, 3d rendering, CGI, etc will continue to use these until they hit their max at the point of what is humanly detectable.

But that does not change the fact that we really are at the start of the "post PC era". It's not that we are going to stop using devices like we do our PCs now, it's that we are also going to use them as tablets. Mark my words, with a 3rd player throwing down in the ring the tablet wars have begun! Reduced prices, increased performance, and more features are to come at an exponential rate.

ptilsen

DevilWAH wrote: »

Watching this and I still don't see the breakthrough. Others have tried and failed with the laptop/tablet hybrid, because there is not a market for it.

No, they've failed because devices have been poorly designed, underpowered, overweight, overpriced, or all of the above. There's a HUGE market. This is a device with the form factor of an iPad and the capabilities of an Ultrabook. There's a market for it.

DevilWAH wrote: »

Ultralight devices just can't compete for number crunching or serious gaming with a desktop/laptops. So people are still at home going to have a "real PC"

Have you actually looked at Sandy Bridge performance? The x86 version will be about as powerful as an average desktop PC (circa Q1 2012/Q42011), which is way more power than 98% of the market needs at all, ever. It can run Starcraft, D3, WOW, Skyrim, and yes, it can even run Crysis, four years later. Read up on Sandy Bridge's Intel HD 4000 performance. It's not great, but it's good enough for a lot of gaming, and it's the same thin most Ultrabooks will be using. It will most likely be using a low-clock (~2.2GHz is my bet) Core i5 with four logical cores. That's plenty of power for most tasks. Give it a full docking station and it replaces most business laptops. Edit: I'm still planning on getting a Sandy Bridge Ultrabook to do some more "serious" gaming and because I don't want to wait. Don't get me wrong, laptops aren't going to die, but Surface has the potential to cannibalize a lot of their market share.

DevilWAH wrote: »

which leave the tablet market as it currently is, which is a portable device to carry out simple tasks, not as a work horse. Some thing the next generation of kids have already seen. Us old looks look at the table as a evolution of the desktop, Like we look at the DVD as an evolution of the Video tape. But for the new generation the "Tablet" is a distinct piece of technology. And companies are seeing this as well, that with in business tablets have a very small market share. They are not going to replace desktops for office workers, or machines for developers.

This will do simple tasks with the mobility and efficiency of an iPad and be a work horse. It won't replace laptops and desktops entirely for high-performance needs, but it will replace them in many instances. Most people aren't developers or gamers. This type of device and in many cases this exact device could well replace most office worker's desktops. We're already looking at a big shift towards desktop and session virtualization. You don't need a desktop to run high-power applications, with very few exceptions. Most productivity, CRM, and ERP suites run just perfectly in an RDS/XenApp environment or in any variety of VDI environment. Companies big and small are running fewer applications on the workstation, and the benefits are there for most organizations to make this shift. Thin clients and cheap desktops have already and will continue to replace high-power desktops for the vast majority of businesses, and in many cases devices like this when paired with a docking station or external monitor and keyboard will also replace them. The x86 Surface tablet is going to have enough power and features at this point to replace most desktops, tablets, and laptops with one device. I really think they have to capitalize on this with a docking station of some form, even if it's just USB+HDMI and can't use the magnetic connector they have for the keyboard. Even without it, the hardware is capable of replacing most other devices as it is.

DevilWAH wrote: »

What companies want are nice simple (cheap) devices that allow mobile uses to access email and office applications on the move. Some thing that apple and android already do. With the push of "bring you own device to work" most compinies are already pushing ahead with solutions geared around apple and android, and indeed one good thing is here are single solutions out there that support both already.

Are they going to wan to implement a further solution to support a Microsoft device. Blackberry is already seeing the affects of this as people see that by having a structure that supports peoples own devices there is no need for the over heads and cost.

If Microsoft can jump on the band wagon with the whole Bring your own device to work. If they try to go it alone in a new direction, I don't see enough people going along to create a snowball effect it needs. Its a bit like BING, nothing wrong with it, but nothing amazing enough to make me change my search defaults.

Both ARM and x86 varieties are going to capitalize on this. The "Pro" version will be purchased by end-users and organizations a like for mixed home/work use. The consumer version will more likely be purchased by consumers but used for work via a mixture of more mundane apps and web browser along with RDP/Citrix/VMware technologies.

It's really just a question of marketing and execution. If the consumer version actually wins a significant share of the market vs iPad, MS will have a winner. Businesses looking at a serious commercial use for tablets will already likely be swayed for Surface over iPad simply because it runs Windows and has much greater capabilities. MS just needs to focus on the consumer for once to have a major success on their hands.

DevilWAH

RobertKaucher wrote: »

But that does not change the fact that we really are at the start of the "post PC era". It's not that we are going to stop using devices like we do our PCs now, it's that we are also going to use them as tablets. Mark my words, with a 3rd player throwing down in the ring the tablet wars have begun! Reduced prices, increased performance, and more features are to come at an exponential rate.

This is my point, years ago Betamax and VHS squabbled over the video indstury, Blueray and HD DVD did it again more recently.

when you look at it in terms of Video's Betamax was a "better" format, but it lost out because VHS had a following and Beatamx didn't offer any thing outstanding over VHS.

And its the same here I think, IPAD worked because they where 2+ years ahead of the rest, indeed its only this year that the rest are catching up. and by the time the rest got their half decent device to market they had the lions share.

I don't think this will be a flop, but I don't see every one dropping there IPAD's to go and grab one. and if the uptake is not fast, then by the time these devices are making inroads in to the market share, Apple and Android and other hard wear companies will be bringing there devices to market (including windows 8 tablets).

So my thought is what is stopping every hardware manufacture having a device like in the near future, forcing Microsoft to share the market and so not reaching the numbers needed to tip the balance from apple?

We know Microsoft have windows as there main product, and we all know that tablets and the post desktop era is the next step along the journey. and currently this is a Microsoft free zone. Indeed out side of work Microsoft windows is becoming less and less relevant, and business are embracing the BYOD which means even if they adopt this, they will need to accommodate other vendors so this does not lock in a market share to Microsoft.

So like people have said, I can see where the device is aimed, but it is at either small current market shares (the tablet laptop hybid), or already heavily competed areas (pure tablets and laptops). I just don't see this doing an IPAD and running away with it.

Also this is not a cloud device, the idea of the cloud is to have simple low powered devices, uterlising the power of the cloud. So many companies are looking for cheap thin clients. So workers have a terminal on there desk, a cheap tablet that has web access and may be a docking station at home. Even gaming can be cloud sourced, so indeed in the long run I see hand held devices become dumber and cheaper, not more poweful. to the point where what ever device you log in to be it a phone, a tablet, or a desk top unit you have the same access and capabilities.

I see the time where I go to a friends house, pick up there android tablet, and get the same experience as from my phone, games console, mums ipad, or my desk top at work. All I carry around it a screen with a network connection.

RobertKaucher

DevilWAH wrote: »

I see the time where I go to a friends house, pick up there android tablet, and get the same experience as from my phone, games console, mums ipad, or my desk top at work. All I carry around it a screen with a network connection.

You are totally right that is where we are going. But we likely have a decade or so before we start to transition to this model. The problem is going to be ISPs. You have to have a fast, ubiquitous wireless Internet connection before we will get to that point. Until then we are going to need fast devices with local storage and a full local OS. In fact we may never go completely away from that. I think it really depends on market forces and what people actually want over the next decade.

DevilWAH

One thing that is great and this demonstrates is the leaps forward people are taking, not long ago a device like this would have blown the competitors away with out question. It's clear that microsoft have thrown down a challenge to the current crop. I really look forward to how they respond.

Webmaster

Well here's one interesting response: Microsoft will withdraw later from tablet market: Acer founder

Surface Specs:

Surface Pro

OS: Windows 8 Pro (Intel)
Display: 10.6-inch HD Display: 16:9, 1920×1080.
Chip: Intel Core i5 “Ivy Bridge.”
Weight: 903 g
Thickness: 13.5mm
Slots: microSDXC, USB 3.0, Mini DisplayPort Video
Battery: 42 watt-hour
Configs: 32GB, 64GB, 128GB

Surface

OS: Windows RT (ARM)
Display: 10.6-inch HD Display.
Chip: Nvidia Tegra.
Weight: 676 g
Thickness: 9.3mm
Ports: microSD, USB 2.0, Micro HD Video
Battery: 31.5 watt-hour
Configs: 32GB, 64GB

A common complaint about the new iPad is that it gets hot (can't say I noticed myself), I wonder how the Surface Pro will do in that area.

ptilsen

I think heat will be manageable on Ivy Bridge. That's what's driving 2nd-gen Ultrabooks to get lots of cheap, cool, long-lasting horsepower. Again, I strongly suspect it will just be a low-clockspeed i5. The only big concern I still have with the specs is the highly conspicuous lack of RAM. I really think they should release it with 8GB, but it's a big concern that it will be neutered at 4GB or even 2GB. Unlike an Ultraboook or any ultraportable laptop, RAM will almost certainly be built-in and not replaceable or extremely difficult to replace.

I think Stan Shih believes what he wants. He might be right, but right now Surface seems very compelling as a piece of hardware. The profitability argument really falls flat, to me, because Google is not making the money Apple makes on iOS devices nor the money MS makes on Windows. It's really hard IMO to point to Android as a successful business model by comparison, especially with Apple being the more profitable of the three companies right now. I think MS definitely does want to raise the bar, but I don't see MS abandoning a solid piece of hardware that sells well for OEMs' sake.

tpatt100

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zxDa3t0fg

Surface locks up and they have to give him another one to continue the demo lol.

I saw there are two prices the iPad competitor is 600 bucks but you need Windows 8 "Pro" to use the pen which is the 1000 dollar tablet sheesh .