A reason not to put all certs on resume...

Mike-Mike

As I've noted here, I'm in WGU, and in turn I'm getting a lot of certs.

I had an interview and the boss to be was asking me about all the certs I had. CIW JavaScript Specialist caught his eye...

then I had to explain it was just an entry level cert and I really didn't know a lot about JavaScript... to which he was confused as to why I had a cert labeled as "specialist" when I didn't fully know javascript.

I tried to save it by saying it provided me the foundational knowledge I needed so that if I went on to study on my own I could pick it up... but the damage was done.....


note to self: get rid of CIW on resume

YFZblu

So after you explained what it was, he still went on about it? It's not your fault he is uninformed about a technical certification.

N2IT

Mike-Mike get rid of that thing. Wow talk about an uncomfortable situation, that is terrible. No offense but that certification is completely misleading. If I was hiring someone and they had that cert and didn't know how to write code I would think I was being lied too.

Smart move get rid of it. Only keep the core ones no need to introduce needless risk into the interview.

m3zilla

I never understood why people put certs/skills/technologies that they haven't used in years. I think that if it's on your resume, you should be able to give me a 15 minute speech about it.

YFZblu

REMOVED UNNECESSARY QUOTED REPLY FROM PREVIOUS POST

I think this post misses the point - The individual doing the hiring was perplexed as to why an entry-level certification included the word 'specialist' in the name. Your post makes it sound like the OP was grilled about the cert and wasn't able to describe it effectively; that's not the case

m3zilla

No, I got the point. But why put it on there in the first place? I have SQL certs that I attained from when I was doing development 4 years ago, but do I put it on my resume? No, because I haven't touched SQL in 3 years, and wouldn't be able to support it.

@Mike my post wasn't directed at you. I was speaking in general terms

Also, from CIW's website

The CIW JavaScript Specialist course teaches developers how to use the features of the JavaScript language to design client-side, platform-independent solutions

Skills Taught (Refer to course description for more details).

• JavaScript language essentials, including program flow control, form validation, image animation, frame targeting and cookie creation
• JavaScript code development, including writing programs and writing script for the JavaScript object model
• Web site implementation, including authoring and scripting, Web content creation, Web management and digital media tools

If I saw that, I would be inclined to think someone who list the cert would know Javascript as well.

ptilsen

YFZblu wrote: »

I think this post misses the point - The individual doing the hiring was perplexed as to why an entry-level certification included the word 'specialist' in the name.

I'm perplexed, too.

Yes, remove it. The certification provides virtually no useful skills. Also, almost no one who doesn't know of WGU has even heard of CIW, so this conversation may come up a lot.

ODNation

I've been burned on this before. Back in 2005, I got my CCNA from a course I took at a tech school. Shortly after graduating, I had an interview and was asked a flurry of questions regarding switch/routing... I could barely answer them. The hiring manager was not impressed that I was CCNA certified but couldn't answer some intermediate questions that was covered in the CCNA exam. I learned that lesson 7 years ago...

N2IT

@ anyone who experienced this.

I experienced this as well. I was quizzed over security + and I barely remember any of it. I don't list it or ISO 27002 F. There is just no point and the risk associated with it it tremendous. All it takes is one security enthusist to ping you and I am not getting the job. Oh that's exactly what happen. Unless it's a DoD job I don't list it.

In fact from my list I remove:

A+, N+, S+, Server+, ISO 27002 Security F, MOF V4 F

Sometimes I list A+ and N+ if the job is heavily technical due to HR locking in on that certification.

N2IT

@Mike

Great post brother

This has really planted a seed in my head to take even more certifications off. Honestly the only ones I feel 100% comfortable talking about it the ITIL's, CAPM, Project + because of the CAPM studying, MCTS MS Project (questionable, I have some experience) and the MS 2007 certifications, (these are a given this is my job to know these tools) I can easily back it up.

So out of all my certifications I would say

Expert level
MOS Word, Excel, Outlook, PowerPoint, Visio

Really good
CAPM, ITIL ST, OSA, Foundation, Project +, Quality Bronze, A+, N+

Average
ISO 20000

Not good
Server +, Security +, MOF V4 F, ISO 27002 F

What about the idea of only listing the certifications on your resume that you are in the good and expert range? Having a ton of certifications might take away from the 4-5 you have that you are truly amazing at.

Thoughts?

Daniel333

Just try to pair all your certs to the job you are applying for. Drop off the ones that don't matter or can be misunderstood. (an old boss walked someone out of the building after he read "CEH - Certified Hacker" on the guys resume)

jmritenour

The CIW stuff I got from WGU will never darken my resume. I'm sorry, but those certs are a joke. The JavaScript one especially - I crushed that exam, and I still probably couldn't program any JS from scratch beyond some basic alerts & input boxes - I just understand the syntax enough to be able to pick apart what's right and wrong in a multiple choice list.

Sorry OP, but let this be a hard lesson to tailor your resume to the job you're applying for.

WafflesAndRootbeer

ODNation wrote: »

I've been burned on this before. Back in 2005, I got my CCNA from a course I took at a tech school. Shortly after graduating, I had an interview and was asked a flurry of questions regarding switch/routing... I could barely answer them. The hiring manager was not impressed that I was CCNA certified but couldn't answer some intermediate questions that was covered in the CCNA exam. I learned that lesson 7 years ago...

This goes back to the unrealistic expectations that companies have these days and it shows when they interview people. Networking (or any other serious discipline) is not like riding a bike. It's like juggling chainsaws and live hand grenades. You're either great at it because you practice all the time or you are barely able to keep it together because you don't have the experience or skills to tackle it all at once. Most people fall into the later category because "taking courses" is how workers are being taught networking and other highly technical things. I'm not criticizing you or saying that you suck, I'm just saying that today's way of doing things doesn't work because it has no real ROI for you or employers paying for it instead of a solid development program. Every ass-kicking, smack-talking, *****-slapping, A-game bringing successful Cisco partner business I know does in-house training and on-the-job development/mentoring every day for their employees because they get a tangible ROI over the sim courses that make up 95% of the Cisco training courses out there. Those guys don't have a shortage of work and they make good money, with many ending up working for Cisco when they hit CCIE status. The rest just get by.

bdub

Honestly, I dont see anything wrong with putting things on your resume that you are not in expert in if you are just starting out in IT and have little experience. I'd personally leave the CIW certs on my resume if I had no experience and was looking to get my foot in the door. If the person interviewing cannot understand the purpose of the cert after having explained it to them its not your fault. Sure, leave it off thats fine too. But when you have little to no experience I'm not really sure what your resume is going to contain that will be worth talking about or will make you a viable candidate. Not to mention that a person interviewing you for an entry level job really shouldnt expect you to be an expert in any scripting language.

Mike-Mike

jmritenour wrote: »

I'm sorry, but those certs are a joke. The JavaScript one especially - I crushed that exam, and I still probably couldn't program any JS from scratch beyond some basic alerts & input boxes - I just understand the syntax enough to be able to pick apart what's right and wrong in a multiple choice list.

This pretty much rings true for me

bdub wrote: »

. Not to mention that a person interviewing you for an entry level job really shouldnt expect you to be an expert in any scripting language.

in the interviewer's defense, it wasnt' an entry level job, it was a much higher level job in my current company

Raisin

Mike-Mike wrote: »

I tried to save it by saying it provided me the foundational knowledge I needed so that if I went on to study on my own I could pick it up... but the damage was done.....

I've found in these situations it's better to be just straight up with the guy; tell him it was an easy test that allowed you to test out of a college course. Trying to spin it into a positive by talking about foundational knowledge is just going to set off his BS meter.

onesaint

I would either study up on JS or drop the cert from your resume to avoid the issue.

m3zilla wrote: »

I never understood why people put certs/skills/technologies that they haven't used in years. I think that if it's on your resume, you should be able to give me a 15 minute speech about it.

This perspective always conjures images of resumes containing only the last role or a minimal skill set. As if to say previous work experience is irrelevant unless you can write a dissertation on it.

If a resume lists 3 positions over the last 10 years, the experience from all of those years should (and will) be on the resume, so long as it's relevant. The alternatives are having the same skill set for 10 years or extremely bleak experience descriptions, both of which do not bode well for the candidate.

EV42TMAN

Honestly i agree with the general consensus of putting the certifications that relate to the job on your resume. When i was looking for a job it was right after Microsoft did the switch from MCSA/MCSE to MCITP so i had to do a lot of explaining in interviews. At that time was of the interviews i had was with hiring managers that were not in IT and i was lucky if they have even heard of the MCSE. Then I'd have to explain why the names changed, it was kind of annoying and frustrating because when you want apply for a new job the employer expects you to jump through hoops. whether its a interview pretest or scheduling, some places are better or worse. But then after you go through all the hoops you talk to a hiring manager/human resources person that doesn't know what the IT department is looking for and sometimes you leave interviews thinking "This would have gone so much better if the interviewer knew more about technology".

Once i went through 2 rounds of interviews for a very large banking institution and they gave me the same test in both interviews. What annoyed me the most was that both interviews were with people that knew nothing about IT and the test they gave me had nothing about corporate IT infrastructure, the test questions were all home user/end user support questions and would have been better suited for if i was applying at geek squad.

the_Grinch

Sounds like an issue I ran into when interviewing for a job. Interview was going well and then the interviewer says "ok, now I would like to ask you about some Java related questions". I froze, as I had two courses in Java, but only because I had to take them at the time. I simply said that I would be happy to attempt to answer his questions, but I had taken the courses years before and hadn't used them. He paused for what seemed like awhile, but was probably a couple of seconds. Bam onto more interview questions and an offer at the end of the day. In turn I did remove those courses from my resume and when employers ask about my programming background I simply say I could learn and I can read code, but am not a programmer by trade.

petedude

There are several key points in this thread I gotta respond to:

1. It's difficult, but try to be ready to answer anything you put on your resume. It's your sales brochure, and you need to be able to sell any of the features you're advertising. Your prospective "customers" will surprise you.

2. What you put on your resume depends not only on what you're applying for but also where you're at in your career. Having a variety of IT certs shows a well-rounded skillset, and having a number of them can help you appear more experienced or knowledgeable. You may want to put more on your resume: a) earlier in your career, b) when you're looking for a jack-of-all-trades assignment or c) looking for a promotion where broad expertise is of value. If you're not in one of those spots, tailor your resume as others have suggested.

3. I do not consider the CIW certs completely useless, although some are probably more valuable than others. The exams certainly could be tougher and the certs better focused if CIW wants more recognition, though. If you fell they've helped you in some respect, list them where appropriate and be ready to sell them.

Mike-Mike

Raisin wrote: »

I've found in these situations it's better to be just straight up with the guy; tell him it was an easy test that allowed you to test out of a college course. Trying to spin it into a positive by talking about foundational knowledge is just going to set off his BS meter.

i did do this as well... I specified that MCDST is the only cert I went to get on my own, and the rest were all part of college courses in my degree plan

Somnipotent

one should remove most entry level certifications from their resume (with the exception of CCNA-most HR folk still don't know that a CCNA is prereq for CCNP/CCIE and the core CompTIA certs if you're applying to a DoD contractor). Why clutter up your resume with excess mess. I've removed CCENT shortly after CCNA and will remove CCNA Security once i obtain my CCNP Security. also, don't list anything you're not really sure of either. i've read resumes of guys who listed all these cisco certs and come interview, they were clueless (dumpers apparently). if you list it, expect to be grilled on it.

whatthehell

As some already have said (to some degree), putting all your certs on your resume for every job is like putting all your job experience on your resume for every job --- it doesn't make sense and it gets very verbose!

Tailor your resume per applied job, removing non-relevant certs and job history.

For example, for a Network Security role, you definitely wouldn't need McDonald's experience as well as your A+ cert listed.

Just my humble opinion!

m3zilla

onesaint wrote: »

I would either study up on JS or drop the cert from your resume to avoid the issue.





This perspective always conjures images of resumes containing only the last role or a minimal skill set. As if to say previous work experience is irrelevant unless you can write a dissertation on it.

If a resume lists 3 positions over the last 10 years, the experience from all of those years should (and will) be on the resume, so long as it's relevant. The alternatives are having the same skill set for 10 years or extremely bleak experience descriptions, both of which do not bode well for the candidate.

I think you misunderstood. I'm not telling you to remove work experience, what I'm saying is don't put skills/certs/technologies that you have used, or can no longer support in your technical/certification section.

If you worked on C++ 10 years ago as a software engineer, by all means put that in your work experience. But why would you put it in your skills section if you can no longer code in C++?

techdudehere

I only list certs I am competent in. Some I have because an employer required it but I never really used the training. I don't list those.

N2IT

Tech not to be too nosey but for instance which ones did your employer ask you to get that you don't list?

onesaint

m3zilla wrote: »

I think you misunderstood. I'm not telling you to remove work experience, what I'm saying is don't put skills/certs/technologies that you have used, or can no longer support in your technical/certification section.

If you worked on C++ 10 years ago as a software engineer, by all means put that in your work experience. But why would you put it in your skills section if you can no longer code in C++?

I think this "...if it's on your resume, you should be able to give me a 15 minute speech about it" must have thrown me off. With that, I do agree with only listing relevant certs and skills of which you can cover the concepts in some detail.

Regarding the C++ example, I think if a person has used a technology previously and was well versed, it shouldn't be hard to pick it up again, pretty quickly. That can be relevant to a prospective employer (like my 10 year old accounting experience). I personally don't have a skills section on my resume and don't separate my past work experience with my current capabilities. Mind you, if I had a skills section, I would only list those skills I could explain well.

dcren21

This has been a helpful thread from the experience of the OP's statement. All this is good to know from all standpoints.

drsketch

bdub wrote: »

Honestly, I dont see anything wrong with putting things on your resume that you are not in expert in if you are just starting out in IT and have little experience.

I do, this is called fluff. Fluff leads to your interviewer building the interview based on knowledge s/he believes you have. Once you start bombing the interview good bye job offer.

erpadmin

Here's my take.

I do have the CIW certs on both my LinkedIn and my resume. Yeah, they are useless, but my feeling is I earned them, so I'm gonna include them. I can get away with Javascript because Weblogic (which PeopleSoft uses are their web server) uses it heavily and going through some of those .js files helped me barely pass that exam.

One thing I can take away from this thread is that I should modify it slightly to focus more on the high level stuff. I had an interview where one of the technical folks wondered (quite snarkly) how a desktop support guy could start working servers on his next job? This guy forgot to look over the fact that my previous job was a JOAT job and I had to explain that I took that job, to my detriment, because it paid more than the JOAT job and I figured I would advance to a server-level job. Well, I didn't mention this in the interview, but 9/11 happened and I was going to be in the process of getting laid off. Suffice it to say, I didn't get that job, but the department head told me it was only because they were looking for a UNIX/Oracle guy and I only had Windows experience. I am not sorry for that though...as that is primarily why I'm seeking a PM/Technical Lead kind of role within the PeopleSoft ERP space (so that I can continue to be involved with PeopleSoft whether they are a 100% Windows shop or UNIX/Oracle.)

But keeping those antiquated certs/older jobs is just to tell employers that my experience/certs/education has been progressive. I can intelligently discuss anything that's on my resume. Having said that, Mike^2 might have done the right thing and it will at least get me to tweak the resume a bit after I complete my PMP.

Psoasman

^^Good points above.

CIW certs will not likely grace the page of my resume. My main reason being is they state "specialist" When I hear that, I think someone's main work is doing what the cert states. After passing the Web Design cert, I would hardly call myself a web design specialist. It was a cert I was required to do and that's it. I think those "specialist" certs would be better if named JavaScript Foundations or Database foundations.