We can't pay you more because you don't have a B.S.

FloOz

dave330i wrote: »

It's at the beginning of your career that not having a B.S. isn't a big deal.

LOL are you kidding me? if it wasnt for my b.s. degree i would be making 10k less a year considering i am a new graduate

NoTime2Burn

N2IT wrote: »

... I had to take at MSU...

Small world. I took some CS classes at MSU. Never finished the degree, which is why I'm at WGU now.

(Go Spartans!)

HLRS

wow that's surprising, BA/BS should be equivalents just major are different.

ptilsen

I wouldn't go that far, HLRS. BA's tend to be much focused on arts, gened, or the application of soft sciences. B.S. degrees are generally more focused on deep theory of soft sciences or theory of and application of hard sciences. They are different both in the real abilities and knowledge imparted upon those that pursue them and their value in the market place.

However, I will agree that it is not a major factor in employment, and hence I think this one instance was not an example of the market as a whole for IT.

N2IT

PT is correct but I still find it bizarre that they would pay less for a B.A.

dave330i

N2IT wrote: »

PT is correct but I still find it bizarre that they would pay less for a B.A.

Bachelor of Arts vs. Bachelor of Science. When you read stories of recent grad with huge student loan and no means to pay it off they usually have B.A.

N2IT

Dave I don't disagree that a BS > BA in the eyes of most employers.

My BS is 1,500 USD from being paid for

Devilry

I sure will be glad when I can say that!

N2IT

I graduated in 2001 lol

reloaded

rwmidl wrote: »

My degree was in Political Science. So no, it wasn't in IT.

I go with the low ball deal too. I have the exact BA you do and I had NO trouble getting my current Net Engineer job (govt contract). I've never heard of anyone differentiate between BA and BS if one didn't have the experience or clearance in line with the position.

techdudehere

I don't know enough about this position to say, but what I can tell you about is the recruiter low ball. When I first dealt with recruiters, the one thing many tried to do was say, "Well I could get you placed but <insert X here> is a sticking point. I'll only be able to get Y.". Now X would change depending on the recruiter. Imagine one's face when my retort to "but this resume needs a lot of work" was "really, it was actually done by the director of the career center for a huge University". If you run and get something everytime a recruiter makes something up, you'll die a very broke man. I have a BS and they just came up with other excuses, the type of experience, the resume, whatever. What I did was say, "wow that's too bad, I guess I won't be able to accept that position then" and of course they usually decided the client would accept the offer after all (ie I was the only qualified person they could send up or the others wouldn't take the low ball either). If you get a degree, make sure you don't go in debt for it. It's not worth it especially in this market where the lowest bidder who can do the job stands a good chance to win. When most of us were growing up everyone said"get a degree, get a degree, get a degree", now everyone has a degree and we realize we do most learning after we enter the workplace and will be dealing our kids "find someone to pay for your degree, find someone to pay for your degree,find someone to pay for your degree". If the recruiter won't budge, ask if you can be hired at the lowball price but they will pay for your degree and then bring you up to full salary once WGU or whatever you do is completed. The pay cut might be worth it if they pay for you school. Unless I did programming, my degree is so outdated it is laughable. Heck, even if I did programming it would probably still be laughable since it was a DOS IDE and most of my classes were in C with on in assembly language lol

BigMevy

dave330i wrote: »

As I've said earlier and few others noted, employers want their senior/management people to have a BS. Depending on the employer it may be a very soft requirement, but its easier to hire someone who meets all requirements.

I would agree with this as well. I would even go one step further, and say that in many upper management positions you pretty much have to have a Master's, a Bachelor's won't cut it.

Bottom line, if you even think you might consider going the management route at some point in your career, you're being proactive by at least getting a B.S. My boss is already heckling me about going for my Masters, and I'm still 6 months from finishing my BS.

rwmidl

Just to give everyone a little bit of an update. I reached out to a friend of mine here in town who is a Project Manager and has dealt with hiring people for Gov. contracts. What he told me was yes there is some validity to what I was told. He said for "higher" positions the requirements become a little more stringent. He also said the requirements are very foolish and very limiting. He had a BA in Theater and went back and got his MBA because of how his degree showed up on labor categories (or didn't). He also said certifications can bump you up to higher categories (which after I told him which 8570 categories I qualified under he promptly wanted a copy of my resume!)

Bottom line is I think there is some truth to it and some BS as well.

HLRS

not necessarily, well there is B.A. in Computer Science, weird lol, Majors & Degree Tracks — Hunter College
Also my school changed a major degree from BA to B.S. the major was Public Administration. maybe the students wanted it to be B.S. ,not sur

Everyone

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me! At a previous job, when I asked my manager for a salary increase to match the level of work I was doing, I was told "You'll never make that much without a degree". When I pointed out that most of my co-workers didn't have a degree, the tune changed to "Well we'd have to re-evaluate salaries for the entire department, and they could end up lowering them..." Within 8 months of being told that, I nearly doubled my base salary. My total compensation is more than twice as much as it was at that company. I still don't have a degree.

YuckTheFankees

Wow, I never really thought there was a difference between BS/BA in the eyes of an employer. But then again, I guess I see where they could be coming from.

healthyboy

what if you do not have your highschool certificate will that effect?

As long as you have certs and have good experience?

YuckTheFankees

Is a high school certificate the same thing as a high school diploma?

It really depends on the employer but I usually get asked where I went to school and what year I graduated on applications.

afcyung

The previous poster about pay being related to points is 100% spot on. They score the applicant against a matrix and based on how many points you score determines your eligible pay as a employee on probation. Once you get off it you will start seeing promotions as steps like GS-12 Step 3 pay. Also because the position is classified as a 2200 series position according to OPM they have slightly harder requirements. Thats assuming it was a GS position and not a Contract position. Otherwise you would have to look at the contract the Gov has with the contractor to determine what suitability requirements they levied on the contractor for personnel filling the position.

NetworkVeteran

healthyboy wrote: »

what if you do not have your highschool certificate will that effect?

As long as you have certs and have good experience?

The highest level of education you completed will always be a factor. The specific grades and courses you attended tend to matter less in the long-term.

paul78

@rwmidl - I think that @afcyung probably articulated it best. Also it probably depends on contractor's govt contract and the contractor's willingness to reduce their own margins. I wonder if it differs by govt agency as well. Its been about 10 years since I've contracted for a Federal agency but as I recall the topic of a degree never came up. And my bill rate which was pretty high was never in question.

Btw -- I have no degree.

rwmidl

@Paul78 - this was a real small company so I tend to lean more towards the company not wanting to reduce their margins. The company I work with now is a very big defense contractor. Other than one interview my having a BA has never been an issue (the one interview/manager who said it was an "issue" brought it up when I asked for more money - which he then said he would do AFTER I declined the offer. So to me that tells me he was trying to low-ball and make his numbers look good).

paul78

Yeah - I think you probably just had some unluckly circumstances. As N2IT indicated, it probably varies.

With me, when I was subcontracting for the govt, the company was real small, just 5 people and the owner was a friend who was in a pinch. Because the subcontract required that I live out of a hotel for a while, there wasnt much to quibble in terms of rates.

Iristheangel

@rwmidl, If it makes you feel better, my brother is the director of IT for a company in the Silicon Valley with a BA and MA in music and he's making well over $200K/year plus stocks. He's been in the IT industry for less than 10 year. Don't let this stuff discourage you.

While a BS/MS might give you a slight advantage on paper and land you more interviews, you can still make due if you have the skills to back it up. After all, how many times have people said that your certifications/degree might get you the interview but it's your skills that get you the job? I'm actually somewhat shocked that this company was basically saying to you: "Yes, we'll hire you but we're not going to pay you what you're worth because of the degree you got." If they were originally willing to hire you then it just sounds like they were looking for an excuse to bargain your salary.

I'm wishing the best for you, rwmidl. Don't second guess yourself as far as where you are in your career. If you want to go get a BS for yourself, then do so but don't feel like it's necessary at this point in your life. You have A degree and your list of certifications/experience makes you an extremely desirable candidate.

rwmidl

@Paul - as I mentioned I talked to a friend of mine who is a PM/hiring manager and he said there is some validity to it. I know if it was a Gov./GS position "what" kind of degree you have can mean a lot (when it comes to points).

I've had people ask me the past few years if I had ever thought of going back to school/getting a graduate degree. My usual response is "I have no motivation". That still is true but I've started to open up a bit more to it. I just have to see what the cost/benefit of going that route will be.

rwmidl

@Iris - thanks!

ptilsen

dave330i wrote: »

Bachelor of Arts vs. Bachelor of Science. When you read stories of recent grad with huge student loan and no means to pay it off they usually have B.A.

That's usually more about career choice than what Arts vs. Science. What I would say is that in IT, equally skilled and qualified individuals with only a difference in what degree they possess are generally not going to see a huge pay difference. Lots of people in IT have BAs in unrelated subjects (or no degree at all) and are very successful.

DigitalZeroOne

DigitalZeroOne wrote: »

They may be low balling you regardless, however, some companies do get some type of benefit for having someone come in with a certain type of degree, or certain certifications if it's a DoD type contract. I was turned down for a position because I didn't have an EE degree, I have a CIS degree, but for some reason, the Government wanted someone with a EE, even though the job was a sys admin type job. I actually ended up getting a different position, that didn't require a degree at all. I will try and find out what type of benefit the companies get, it could be preferential treatment for the contract, but there is some type of perk.

Well, it's not what I thought, but I found out more information. When a company recompetes for the same contract, the degrees and the certs of the candidates help greatly in getting the contract again, it also helps on future contracts. Also, some contracts do require a certain type of degree for the job, some are flexible when it comes to the type of degree. As far as my friend knows, there is no direct financial gain by having degrees or certs, although, since it does help win future contracts, I would consider that a financial gain.