The Morepheus Guide to Kill **** and Heal The Certification Industry

Roguetadhg

N2IT: Who says you can't do both?

If you think he's right, go out and do something about it... if you're not already

I'd like to think that some of us cert people are just as geeky as myself

Iristheangel

Depends on the job role you're going for as well. If you're going for a help desk, desktop support, project management, etc role, your manager might not necessarily be technical. The service desk manager at my last company who worked in the company's call center was in charge of hiring techs for their service desk, but he wouldn't have known the different between a DVI and HDMI port if you smacked him in the face with it. He just had a pretty MBA and that's what got him the job.

If you're like NetworkVeteran who is working in senior networking roles, they're going to want some bells and whistles like certification and education (though I'm sure his experience alone is distinguishing). You won't find many advanced engineer or networking roles that don't require some sort of education and/or certification. While I'm definitely not at NetworkVeteran's level of networking, the kind of position I do currently occupy requires that I get my CCEE and many of the certifications I currently hold were required before I got the job.

Roguetadhg

Iristheangel wrote: »

While I'm definitely not at NetworkVeteran's level of networking, the kind of position I do currently occupy requires that I get my CCEE and many of the certifications I currently hold were required before I got the job.

When can we expect a "Iristheangel" CCIE Blog thread? I think that was a typo you had? or a Citrix?

N2IT

@Iris you make a good point, depends what group or team you are in.

@Rogue true enough, but I think his point was you just need the one. C'est la vie

Personally all the high level guys I have met in IT have come from the business ranks. Even the CIO 3 fortune 500 companies I worked for had finance, marketing and MBA's

I think mid level managers over advanced IT departments should know something about the technology no question about it.

Iristheangel

No, it's Citrix Certified Enterprise Engineer. I hadn't even heard of it before I worked here but it's required along with a current MCITP:EA.

As far as the CCIE, DEFINITELY will hit that one after I'm done with my M.S and CCNP so probably not for 2 more years.

N2IT

@ Rogue

I made my bed B.Sc Management and now my MBA. As much as I would love to get a CS degree, as I think it would fill a ton of knowledge gaps, it's just not feasible. I am struggling with the MBA to be honest.

Roguetadhg

Iris: You've perked my interest about the topics about Citrix. I have to admit my knowledge in it is little less than "Users give me headaches" Hopefully We'll see you around Cisco parts during that time!

N2IT: Point Taken, my boss's boss isn't a techie. But he's a good guy - I think. I only met him once. Different state and all.

Well if you need any help. I'm sure we'll try to quiz you. I'd do CS however programming just isn't in my blood. I've spent 16 hours coding Javascript/html/css for websites when I was in highschool... urgh. Rather not go back down that road again. Nothing like reading lines after lines to catch } for ]. :P

jfitzg

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Too expensive.

Not really, if they can create a test bank of 500 questions, they can shell out more $$$ to make a considerably larger test bank. Doesnt even have to be 5000 question, go with 3000 or 2000, will cost more but you protect the integrity of the test and the value of the cert.

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

My experience, is that both times I upgraded my certification level, that was immediately followed by better career opportunities and much higher pay. I tend to apply for the highest-paying networking roles in my area and they almost always require or prefer an expert-level certification.

To compare your CCIE to lower level certs is completely disingenuous and you know it. Were not talking about CCIE and MCMs here, we are talking about low to mid level certs

Roguetadhg

There's CCIEs out there that give CCIEs a bad name, because they dumped the written. I doubt they dumped the practical - but I'm sure somehow it has been done.

Iristheangel

I don't think NetworkVeteran has a CCIE. His signature merely states that he is studying for it. Thus his point still stands

jfitzg

Iristheangel wrote: »

I don't think NetworkVeteran has a CCIE. His signature merely states that he is studying for it. Thus his point still stands

He passed his CCIP which last time I checked WASNT a entry level certification, so, um, no, his point doesnt stand... But if you want to think your A+ and CIW certs are valuable to employers and are going to get you a promotion go for it, you are entitled to think whatever you want.

xbuzz

In regards to certs not being known by management or management not caring about certs. In their opinion maybe that is so, but if you're someone looking for work entry level certifications are worth ALOT. Even if technical/senior managers don't care or know about certifications, often times you won't even get through the HR filter without having these certifications.

Due to the recession, the amount of people looking for work has drastically increased. Even HR has lost jobs, but now when positions are advertised, HR has a hard time sifting through all the applicants, so more commonly filter algorithms are run. If you can't get by those filters by playing the filter game (having the right keywords, certs in your resume) then the IT managers etc will never even see you. So while I respect those people's opinions, they really have a disconnect when they are talking about recruiting processes these days. Often these people have been with the same company along time, or if changing companies, are headhunted etc, so their experience with the job market is far different from the people just starting out. I read an article last week referencing these HR algorithms. A high ranking executive applied for his own job using the recruiting process, and didn't even make it through the HR filters.

Another problem I see is that although certs like CCNA/MCITP are considered entry level. They're actually pretty hard to get if you're starting out. Once people get them, alot of people treat them like a free pass, as in they don't keep their knowledge current, so when they go and do an interview even 2-3 months after doing the certs, they have already forgotten alot of the material. Most recruiting people would just label individuals people as dumpers also. So while dumpers may technically be people who **** on tests, in reality, anyone who hasn't maintained their cert knowledge will actually be labeled dumpers as well, which blurs the whole "dumping is killing the certification argument". I think people who don't maintain cert knowledge, but passed certs legitimately are a good proportion of those being labeled dumpers at the moment.

paul78

Great thread and good dialogue. On the point about the value of certifications, sounds like the consensus is that there is no right answer And it all depends on the circumstance of the corporate environment. Seems like every time the topic comes up, that's how the discussion ends up.

m3zilla

jfitzg wrote: »

He passed his CCIP which last time I checked WASNT a entry level certification, so, um, no, his point doesnt stand... But if you want to think your A+ and CIW certs are valuable to employers and are going to get you a promotion go for it, you are entitled to think whatever you want.

I don't get it. Your original statement simply says that most companies you've dealt with don't know, or don't care about certifications, period. Now, you're saying that they do care, but just for professional level certs? How is NetworkVeteran's point invalid just because he has a CCIP or CCNP?

In my personal experience, with every cert that I've attained, I've gotten a better job offer/job afterward.

Regarding the topic, I'm curious to see if you guys think if all dumpers are bad, or just dumpers that can't back it up? For example, I know a CCIE who had to renew his written, and dumped it. I assume he did it because he didn't have the time to study for the exam, because I assure you, this guy knows what he's doing. Would you consider him the same as all other dumpers out there?

shodown

Roguetadhg wrote: »

There's CCIEs out there that give CCIEs a bad name, because they dumped the written. I doubt they dumped the practical - but I'm sure somehow it has been done.

Dumping on the CCIE LAB exam is pretty common. You can go to certain bootcamps that teach the lab, or you can buy the lab from several sources where you get full copies of the lab for your chosen track. Yes its a few versions of the exam to learn, but at this point you prob have a firm grip on the technologies and you just looking for a sneak and peak. I've seen this happen quite a few times.

Iristheangel

I merely mentioned the CCIE because that's what you brought up in your last post where you accused NetworkVeteran of being "disingenuous."

I don't think my CIW's or A+ means anything to employers given where I am in my career but I *do* know that my CISSP, CCNA, and MCSE:Security helped to get me to where I am today. The CEO of my company said as much after he hired me. If you didn't read my old job post: I met him at a network event and I gave him my business card that had my certifications listed (the ones I advertise on my resume at least). He found me on LinkedIn and pursue me for some time to go work for him. Since I an now heading the engineering of our company and am personally interviewing/hiring engineers to directly report to me, I can tell you that for some roles, certifications aren't buzzwords that HR Googled to stick under job requirements. It all depends on what you're doing and how technical your work is. There's a lot of guys on here that are IT management oriented (What's up, N2IT!) and business processes are more important than heavily technical knowledge. When it comes to very technical roles (such as an engineering role) the person who is going to make the hiring decisions usually understands the technologies and certifications.

I couldn't help but scroll through some of your old posts and you mentioned at the end of last year that you had recently left a help desk or desktop support role with a college. I'm not psychic but it's probably unlikely that you didn't move from a help desk role to a senior engineer level position. You might not have experienced the need for certifications at your current job level and that's completely fine. Maybe you're looking for a business role that won't require certifications and that's completely fine too, but if you're looking to be in a highly technical role, it might be required. When it comes to those roles, you need more than a professional resume writing service to be noticed.


As far as the original thread topic: I think the BEST way to deter dumpers is to give practical hands-on tests like the CCIE lab, Offensive Security, etc. @xbuzz - I see your point about "forgetting" knowledge if you don't use it daily. I completely agree with you. That's why I discourage people from getting their CCNA + CCNP + CCNP:Security + CCNP:Voice, etc, etc all before they even set their foot in the door. There's that mentality that "If I have X amount of certifications before I ever get my first job, they they will HAVE to hire me at $100K/year or more! HOORAY!" But in reality, the second they start studying for the next exam and aren't using their knowledge daily, they'll start to lose it.

Roguetadhg

m3zilla wrote: »

I don't get it. Your original statement simply says that most companies you've dealt with don't know, or don't care about certifications, period. Now, you're saying that they do care, but just for professional level certs? How is NetworkVeteran's point invalid just because he has a CCIP or CCNP?

In my personal experience, with every cert that I've attained, I've gotten a better job offer/job afterward.

Regarding the topic, I'm curious to see if you guys think if all dumpers are bad, or just dumpers that can't back it up? For example, I know a CCIE who had to renew his written, and dumped it. I assume he did it because he didn't have the time to study for the exam, because I assure you, this guy knows what he's doing. Would you consider him the same as all other dumpers out there?

I would consider those that can't back it up and didn't study "d----er". More so, kinda-officially - Persons using sites and other sources that gives exact (word for word) answers for the tests... No studying required. Using bds, in anyway, is certification stripping - that I know of. It's highly discouraged among everyone, devaules every certification, and continuing on this discussion of **** will get this thread locked or deleted (as I've seen happen in the past).

With that said, probably be best to drop the "d" word :P

paul78

Being somewhat new to the certification scene, it never occurred to me that brain-**** existed. I've been in IT management for about 18 years (both in Fortune 1000 and SME organizations) and to be honest, I never ever formed an opinion good or bad about certifications during the hiring process. It was always nice to see if a candidate had a particular certification but it was never the primary deciding factor in the hiring decision.

I find these threads extremely educational to hear what others experience and their thoughts on the matter of dumping.

For software/hardware vendors that offered certifications (MS, Cisco, VMWare), I get the sense that there is little incentive to deter dumping. In the past, whenever I have considered adopting a particular technology vendor's solutions, one of the outstanding criteria was if there would be people with skill-sets that would be available to support that technology. And one of the available metrics was the number of certified persons available in the market.

To me, true dumping is cheating. And by that, I mean buying a set of questions to memorize. I would consider such persons as being ethically challenged and that is a bigger problem than their ability to actually do the job.

instant000

Hah.

I was thinking of this same thing the other day.

Most of the suggested solutions match what I was thinking:

1 - more hands-on
2 - more expensive
3 - limited retakes
4 - controlled delivery
5 - essay/whiteboard/panel

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1 - the more hands-on the test, the better. It more closely mimics the actual equipment you get to touch. this will lead to a higher quality test.
2 - more expensive - sorry, a good test is going to be more expensive, as it is going to cost something to make the more grueling test experience.
3 - limited retakes - there are tests that you can fail (or pass) and then take again later, not too long afterwards. Cisco changed their CCSI retake policy because of this unfair practice. Now, CCSI scores should match the regular test pass scores (They were exempting CCSI's to take tests inside of the already-passed window.) People wonder how letting someone retake if they passed already matter, and I say that it has to do with ****, and if someone can take it repeatedly within a small time period, they can literally brute force the test through exhaustion of the question pool.
4 - controlled delivery - Don't outsource it. Force the test takers to come to your site, and receive your test. Isolate the test developer network from the rest of the network. Test center will not be reachable online. Seems kinda extreme, but if you really value your test's integrity, you don't want it getting in the hands of anyone outside your organization.
5 - essay/whiteboard/panel - i'm thinking similar to how you would get the open-ended questions, and you'd have to write your own response to the question, or you have to diagram a solution on the whiteboard, or you have to site in front of a panel, and do a presentation/answer questions.

Things like the above would add to the testing experience.

Roguetadhg

paul78: what would you look for when you'd be hiring?

Instant000: I loved the simulators. Minus buggy ones that apparently are in cisco exams... but beyond that. I'd rather have the hands-on labs than the multiple choice 1/4 odds of getting it right.

Iristheangel: Not completely agreeing with you about not going for the CCNA exams. For a couple of reasons.
1. Their Entry-level certification, not a "untold" experience-needed certification.

2. If I don't study about X technologies, how would I ever want to do that... Much like a student wanting to become a nurse. S/He would want to aspire to be something - a nurse. They would study, internships (Yes, experience given), and work their tail off to get there - ultimately.

3. My curiosity of everything makes not studying, or watching, or doing impossible. Thanks to the certs I can safely say I don't plan on touching PS3 for a very long time. Until I get a 3d TV.. Booyah Tron 3D! I can't wait until I read up on L3 switching - I could now. But I don't want to spoil the surprise

4. Yes. I'll forget technologies - it happens. That's why there's notes Skimming over notes once in a while helps to retain and keep. I find the more times I look at my crappy ICND1 notes, the more I realize that "I really need to redo them" and "I still hate the SDM."

spiderjericho

shodown wrote: »

Dumping on the CCIE LAB exam is pretty common. You can go to certain bootcamps that teach the lab, or you can buy the lab from several sources where you get full copies of the lab for your chosen track. Yes its a few versions of the exam to learn, but at this point you prob have a firm grip on the technologies and you just looking for a sneak and peak. I've seen this happen quite a few times.

Yup. You can even obtain the tickets/topology for free or join a group that discusses the tickets. Cisco knows though. They've tried several Remedies like the open ended questions or updating the lab consistently, but if you want something bad enough, you're going to find it. Just have to hope the interview process or performance will weed these frauds out.

drkat

bleh **** em all, it'll make the world a better place... like communism.

spiderjericho

paul78 wrote: »

To me, true dumping is cheating. And by that, I mean buying a set of questions to memorize. I would consider such persons as being ethically challenged and that is a bigger problem than their ability to actually do the job.

That's the thing in this Post Napster/Torrent/YouTube/Google world, you can find **** for free. In India and China, the culture for using these **** may or may not be more prevalent, but just like on this forum, IT is always going to be in demand, and the certs are going to be the keys into the door. And if you're trying to improve your situation, you're going to sometimes do it by any means necessary.

Iristheangel

I think you misunderstood me, Rogue. I didn't mean to sound like I would discourage anyone from getting their CCNA. I completely agree that its an entry level certification. I meant to discourage the mentality of "I'm going to get every certification in the world and it's going to land me the best job EVER."

The CCNA/CCENT gives you a great starting point to learn from. When you start playing around with an enterprise environment, you're using those skill practically and you start expanding that knowledge since you'll run into problems that aren't on the exam. If, without work experience, you start collecting a bunch of other certifications and you're not practically using this information day-in-and-day-out, you're going to start to lose some of that information. The human brain learns through repetition.

I completely understand you wanting to study other topics to find out what you like and don't like. I completely encourage that. That's how we find out passions in life. There's nothing wrong with that, but after a certain point of exploring, you're going to find what you like and what you don't enjoy. You'll start forgetting about the things you're less passionate for while pursuing other things. If you've ever seen the MCITP:EA books (there's four in the set and each are a good 2 1/2 inches thick), CCNA books (2 x 2 inches thick), CCNP books (3 x 1 1/2 -2 inches thick), CCNP specialization books (Not sure on theses), etc, there gets to be a point where there is just so much material that reviewing notes won't cut it if you're not using it.

For example, let's say I never worked in IT before. I start studying for my MCITP:EA and pass all the tests. Then I start studying for the CCNA and pass it. Then I start studying for my CCNP and pass all the exams. They'll be a certain point where even reviewing your notes from time to time wouldn't keep ALL that information fresh in your mind UNLESS you were using it practically for 8 hours a day. In the even that you end up finding an entry level job, you're probably not going to find an entry-level job that will expose you heavily to CCNP, CCNA, MCITP, CCNP:Voice, and CCNP security consistently. See what I mean? It's not that I wouldn't want people to learn but it's almost a waste to do all of that so early.

To be fair, I usually omit several certifications on my resume including the CIW ones. I got them as part of my degree plan but I hardly would call myself a "Javascript specialist" or "Web Design Specialist."

paul78

Roguetadhg wrote: »

paul78: what would you look for when you'd be hiring?

I should have added the caveat that my background is software engineering and in the past, I managed mostly software development and qa teams earlier in my career. Certifications are a lot rarer among software engineers. But I did spend a few years managing operations and system engineers as well. It was during that period where I became more familiar with the certifications that were available.

As for what I look for - it's primarily the experience that the individual has which is commensurate with the role that needs to be filled. So what I mean is that, if it's entry level, I don't expect high-level tech knowledge but I like to discuss the coursework that the individual enjoyed if the person is fresh out of school.

I also try to gauge that individuals intrinsic capabilities - ie - do I think they have the knack and the drive to succeed. I watch body language very closely when I listen to them talk about technology. I also start conversations with open-ended questions and see where it leads - my favorite question is - "Describe how a computer works". I look to see what questions that I will get in return because it's a way to gauge the depth of their knowledge. For example, I once had a candidate start to describe how NAND gates work. And I as I watched her eyes light-up and her hands get animated - I knew she was the right fit.

I also do never discount someone's experience with non-IT related work. For example, I do consider experience with teaching and food-services as valid. I know it sounds odd. But someone that has waited tables generally has more empathy for being service-oriented. And a teacher of children tends to be someone that has learned patience.

These days I don't have the opportunity to interview many people. I'm in a position where I manage or lead other managers of various levels and there's little to no turnover. And if I do interview someone, it's for a management position.

Roguetadhg

Iristheangel: Fair enough. I understand that. I know wouldn't be using the technologies all the time. I'll most likely find myself in a position where I use 1 heavily and the others not as much, if at all. I'd rather get the other CCNA certifications as a by-product. That said, I'm not aimming for the certification as the goal - like I am with Security+ (I admit this). I'd like to be exposed to the materials so that if it comes up, I can atleast remember that "there was something I needed to remember" I'd rather be exposed to the technologies than not know anything about it. Even if it's once.

Just to say I am put on the spot where I might need the knowledge. I'd know where to look. I wouldn't know it without looking and hunting. But by being exposed to it heavily at one point or another- I could find the answer and fit it in faster than trying to learn for the first time. I'd see the topic, and understand that X needs to be done Y for this reason, without grasping a sense of the underlying function of it's reason for being.

Paul78: Im glad I come to this forum. Everyone has their own views and reasons. It's pretty awesome. Thanks for the insight!

drkat

@Iristheangel

Since you're doing hiring and what not, would you even consider yourself CCNP/CCIE level? They are on your cert path and I wouldnt see the point in you obtaining them at this point.. I mean that seems to be the theme of this thread.. Getting certifications where you either a) have no experience or b) are just collecting... and hoping for better position.. I'm not trying to be a .... but your certifications especially the blend of M$/Citrix hardly puts you in a position to represent a CCNP/CCIE level of network engineering... just my $0.02 - I think we're ALL blowing smoke out our you know whats.. our posts reek of righteousness with a hint of hypocracy.

The only ever problem I've ever had is... R&S or Voice...(or quit the game.. and go back to desktop w/o certs) it'd be a cold day in hell you see me advertise Citrix, M$, Cisco, Juniper, VMWare, or whatever the alphabet soup is of te day.. and then expect my skills to be considered credible.. again.. I'm not ripping on you personally, I'm just stating the facts and in support of the thread.

kgb

I vote for more hands-on tests.

I've taken like 8 certs so far, all entry level ones. It's just memorizing facts...I find little value to them to be honest. Why do I need to memorize the 9 steps to do X... Let me demonstrate how I'd do X. Maybe I go about it a little different than what the "manual" says, but the outcome is still X. That's the problem with these type of exams in the first place. You have to learn the "microsoft", "compTIA" way of doing things, that are only useful to get the answer correct. Out in production you do it differently...Not always the case, but it's prevalent.

I admit though, I'm not an IT network/admin/help desk person (and I'm not trying to become one) so I could have it wrong.

When I'm all done with my degree, I only plan on listing a very few of them on the resume.

flt0nujr

I also vote for more hands on tests. When I passed the CCENT exam I was swamped with job offers for engineering jobs that wanted experience in Voip, EIGRP, BGP, OSPF, Switching, Routing, and ACL's. Of course I declined them because I knew I didn't any of these skills. But when I began to apply for jobs on the Jr. Level I ran into interviews where managers wanted these skills but only wanted to offer salaries $45-$50k range. When I did get an interview I was told I wasn't qualified enough, or I needed more certs. I know that all interviews are not like this.

So, on my last interview with a very large company, a name I wont mention, I was told that I was a good candidate but I didn't have the necessary experience, although I set up my own stuff at home and practiced with packet tracer, wireshark, backtrack5, Linux, Virtualbox, etc. When I was asked if I have anymore questions for them after the interview, I let him have it. I said "I've sat here at this table for 2 1/2 hrs getting grilled on questions, solutions, scenarios. Some of it I knew and some I didn't have a clue. I was honest about that. So tell me how do you expect me to get any real world experience in any capacity when you wont hire me; not even at a Jr level at less pay. If you want CCIE's or IT Architects, there not going to take this money. Are you seriously thinking that someone with CCIE, CCNP, CISSP, SSCP, CCNA type skills with experience in scripting, security, and with the years to back up that knowledge are going to take that little bit of money? Your mistaken and misguided. So, that's why I decided to go for the certs that mattered and that would stand out in my opinion, ISC2 and Redhat.

Ok, I'm off my soap box now. I say adopt the stringent testing of ISC2, Redhat, and apply it to the mid level to expert certs. Also, corporations need better career paths or internships that wont have you working 2 extra jobs to pay your rent.

Iristheangel

@Drkat - I definitely wouldn't consider myself CCNP/CCIE level. Right now, I work for a cloud provider that works with small to medium businesses. The level of networking that I do daily is CCNA-level and it'll probably stay that way until I move next year with my significant other. At that point, I'll be diving into more networking-oriented roles. If I end up moving to San Jose or Portland like I hope, it'll be a little easier since I do know some people up there that have already extended offers. At that point, it would be more appropriate for me to seek a CCNP. I don't plan on even touching the CCIE coursework for another 2 years from that point and, realistically, it'll probably take me another 2+ years of studying, labbing, etc to be ready.

I'm pretty critical of a lot of my certifications as well and honest about them. I've stated that I wished I never got my CompTIAs since I could saved money and I understood a lot of the basics at that point when I earned them. I wished I didn't go for my MCSE when I did because the job I had at the time didn't need most of that knowledge. If I had waited, I could have gone through the coursework once and gotten my MCITP:EA. The only good that came from both of those is that I got a year knocked off my CISSP from the S+ and a few credits knocked off my WGU transcripts. I don't always put them on my resume but I think on these forums or on social media, it's a little different. We're all giving advice about certain exams so I'll put up the certifications I have in case anyone needs to ask advice about them or I post on a thread about a certain test. I don't expect to get job offers on here or most of the social media that I spend my time on, but I do talk to a lot of people either publicly or on PM about exam advice.