Can you avoid the whole certification game with a CS degree?

NetworkVeteran

N2IT wrote: »

Network would those individuals bother with certifications?

In most cases, no. Those programs offer many better ways to get noticed.

N2IT

@Paul glad you chimed in. It seems this post has become very sensitive in nature. Very few people have the resouces, aptitude, time, commitment, etc to pull something like this off. It's a challenging feat one that really puts one self through some serious internal battles.

A lot of people on this board are playing catch up because of career changes or reinventing themselves etc. My point was to query about committing to such a high standard of learning and degree and what it would bring if you completed it (especially straight from highschool to college). Obviously MIT and Stanford are only for the brightest stars or at least thats the perception. But The University of Michigan and Wisconsin have fine programs top 20 and a dozen other Universities provide great programs.

If one was to take this path, and most on here don't seem to, what benefit would it bring? Would it allow you to align with a high level position right out the gate and therefore moving you forward at an accelerated rate?

Legacy User

Well I know the guys at MIT are on another level. Some of the stuff they create in class projects get picked up and goes into production. I heard stories about computer engineers coming out of MIT making or at least being offered $100k but some of them group up and start there own companies. Employers go and look for them. I'm sure if someone that graduated from MIT applying to jobs that has a high gpa with a nice professional level cert it'll propel them to the top of the pile. All they'd need to seal the deal is some great communications skills and charm the person interviewing.

drkat

I'll let you know when I become "A Phoenix"

Legacy User

@drkat Are you going to attend the university of phoenix?

RouteThisWay

I don't think a CCNA is going to really help someone with a CS degree from MIT. I agree with the chain of thought that their job hunt strategy is going to be extremely unique in nature compared to a vast majority of technical professionals.

paul78

@N2IT - I do think that sometimes people do beat themselves up about "should've", "could've", and "would've" - I.e. second guessing if they should should have tried harder in highschool to get into a better school or go back to college to finish a degree, etc. Or feeling that they need to catch up.

I suspect for most of the people in this forum, the idea of trying to get into a top-tier CS or EE program has probably passed since most here are proffesionals with careers.

I enjoy the existential nature of this topic because I do sometime wonder if I should have completed my own degree. I did go to a good university and I majored in electrical engineering but I focused on computer science. I never completed my degree but the foundational education was invaluable.

To your original question - does someone need the certifications? I actually don't think that anyone really needs any of it if there is a williness by the individual to learn their craft to the best of their abilities.

In today's tech age, there are so many options to learn and get ahead. And there are so many ways to get ahead in one's career. There's really no one dimensional answer.

EDIT - I think that @Devilry's multipart response rings true.

N2IT

Works for me

Paul I think you hit the nail on the head. Dmar I also appreciate your post, MIT students do go on to create start up companies/technologies

One last thing......I wanted this to be an educational post so that young adults can see the value in a powerful degree and decided to pursue it.

xbuzz

I think what certs like CCNA etc do more than anything, is show you have at least the aptitude to work with the related technology. Obviously if you have a technological degree from one of the best institutions, that more than proves that you can master pretty much whichever technology you apply yourself to, so employers are going to be all over those kinds of people.

I would say companies looking at those kinds of people. They disregard their experience/certifications etc, because the "potential" of such an employee means that with even a couple of years experience in an area, could be at the top of their field and put people who have been in an industry for years more to shame.

N2IT

@Buzz

You make some really strong points. I know some of the upper level tech companies have been known to throw their new grads into the fire. Automatically making them responsible for multimillion dollar projects basically sink or swim.

Webmaster

Whether you can avoid them in reality obviously depends on a many factors, such as location, the company, the type of job, and certification, and the goal of the certee. But really, why would you even want to (or maybe better: what do you have against certs that makes you want to avoid them?). Compared to the time and money investment required for a degree getting a few relevant resume-enhancing certs requires relatively little effort.

Compare how much of what you learn from a (relevant) cert you actually use on the job to the useful knowledge you gained from a CS. That depends a whole lot on the job itself, but most sys admins looking for a job (and not a ton of experience on their resume) cannot afford to skip MS certs, same for Cisco/Juniper, infosec etc, simply because they won't be competitive enough on the market and end up lower in the stack of resumes than those who do have relevant certs.

It comes down to the old comparing apples to oranges again (even more when you compare expensive reputable university degrees to certs). One cannot be entirely substituted for the other as they are different and one doesn't exclude the other from giving you a major advantage on the job market. All in all your question can be answered simply by looking at requirements posted for job openings - it's possible, but especially for the traditional technical IT jobs certifications can and often do make all the difference. It's also often not degree vs certifications but degree vs degree+certifications.

Certifications are more than a resume enhancer as well and serve different purposes than a degree, for example showing that you are certified for the latest vendor's product/technology, showing your employer that you want to move (up) to a different role (classic support->admin), and/or having a decent guideline for becoming a better and more competent techie.

N2IT wrote:

I wanted this to be an educational post so that young adults can see the value in a powerful degree and decided to pursue it.

We've had a few threads in the past with a very similar question, reversed, "can you avoid a degree with the right certs", and my answer is pretty much the same: sure you can, but if you have the opportunity to get a degree in addition to certs go for it. Both can lead to different yet overlapping doors, they are both fruit.

djfunz

You are much more likely to obtain a contract position without a degree from the big tech companies. One in particular informed me that they don't put much weight into certification especially for engineering positions.

Experience and personality is second to a degree.

Certs could get your foot in the door if you don't have anything.

WiseWun

There are a lot of factors and variables to consider here. Location, the person who's interviewing you, your competition, your personality, etc all play a big part. IMO, you should have no trouble getting an entry/junior level job if you have graduated from one of the top schools. Certifications will compliment your education and experience.

I'm currently one class away from completing my Masters. I have a few MS certifications which I stopped pursuing since everyone was brain dumping. In terms of career growth, I don't think my Masters would hold that much weight where I currently work. But if I was to get that CCIE, I know my salary would double some place else. Some of my classmates graduated and after getting their CCIE with little experience, they have been offered 100K salaries.

My advice, do not compare yourself to others. You might have the same CS degree, cert, and skillsets yet your counterpart is making more money then you. That's life, comparing yourself to others will not make you happy and can lead to depression. If your able to attain a degree and certifications, go for it.

Forsaken_GA

They're not mutually exclusive. The answer is both. You may start with a CS degree, but technology is a field of continual learning, and the best way to demonstrate that is via pursuing certifications, all the while building the ultimate trump card: experience.

Vik210

I think a degree can get you those jobs which are very difficult with just certifications. Most of the people are confused with the kind of market a degree targets. For example, its very difficult to get in to R&D department of a well-known MNC without degree. On the other hand, a CCNP/ CCIE can be a very good technician as compared to someone with a Master (or even a PhD) in networks.
I think doing degree is the best thing if that’s an option for anyone. A did my masters from one of the best CS university in UK and some of my friends (who had no job experience) are working for companies like Ericson, BT, Sky, Boeing. They will do certifications with time and after having years of experience in their respective field. Doing a certification and then looking for an appropriate job is an alternate way to enter job market.
My recommendation will always be to do degree (not just to pass the exam but to learn new things and to understand technology and not just be technical), look for a graduate job and do the certifications when you know what you want to do, or things that relate to your field (if you want to grow in that work area).

HLRS

CS degree is mostly programming and math. of course certs are needed, none of the CS degree cover MCTS,MCITP etc or even CCNA

N2IT

@HLRS

Not a very convincing arguement seeing that I have worked in the industry for 7-8 years and have met a lot of people who perform Wintel, network administration, system architecture, etc with no certifications. More than not.

Last time I checked you can learn Microsoft and Cisco technologies without a certification.

Iristheangel

@N2IT - Agreed. Most of the CS/EE degree programs teach networking concepts and theory much like the Cisco certifications. Learning commands isn't easy by any means, but if you understand the protocols, how to design a network, and the theories behind it, you're off to a good start. (Example: Computer Science B.S.). One of my best buddies just graduated with an EE from UC Irvine and got a tier 1 network engineer position with great starting pay (almost 6 figures in the bay area) and they've agreed to give him a 4 month long paid training before he ever starts working with customers. He knows VERY little about Cisco and has never had experience in IT. They're teaching him everything he needs to know about Juniper and Cisco during his 4 month training.

That being said, certifications have their time and place but there's more than one way to break an egg I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to the OP's original question. Are certifications or a CS degree more valuable? Well, it probably depends on the job and the HR/Hiring manager's check boxes they want to fill. Some managers on this forum have stated very clearly that they won't hire someone unless they have a CS degree, others won't hire someone without certifications, others won't hire without experience, etc. Do what's best for you. Ask yourself how you're going to compete with the other applicants that are trying to get a job and make yourself attractive to future employers. If you're looking for the fastest route with the least amount of long term work, then the IT world is going to be hard for you. Even if you never get certified, you're still expected to learn new technologies and adapt. Whether or not you decide to pick up the certifications, if you don't learn new things, you'll become obsolete.

eserfeliz

Before I started school, I contacted one of the professors that my father had worked with at local State U. I didn't know whether or not I wanted to go CS, MIS or BIET. He helped focus me a little bit so that I could choose the right path for myself. Then I asked him, "What do I need to be successful in the IT field."

His response was:

"You need a degree, certifications and experience. If you're missing any of those pieces, you can still find a job, but it might be a little more difficult for you. If you're missing two, you might not get the positions that you want. If you're missing all three, forget about it."

At the time, I had a few certs and a little experience. I decided to go to State U and finish my degree in MIS. I graduated with honors and now I work alongside engineers with BS and MS CS/EE degrees from MIT, RPI, RIT, UMich, GaTech, and NJIT, to name a few. It's demanding, but I really like being here so far.

I don't know if it really answers the question, but I will say that without my degree, I wouldn't be here.

erpadmin

eserfeliz wrote: »

...Then I asked him, "What do I need to be successful in the IT field."

His response was:

"You need a degree, certifications and experience. If you're missing any of those pieces, you can still find a job, but it might be a little more difficult for you. If you're missing two, you might not get the positions that you want. If you're missing all three, forget about it."

There is a problem with the last sentence of the quote...there are a lot of people, like myself, that began a career in IT without "a degree, certifications, and experience." Mind you, I started in the good ol' 90s when it was much easier to do, but I would argue that there are still a few people in IT that had none of those three and still able to get an IT job.

Having said that, I'm not taking anything away from that advice [you need all three, in my opinion...but I rank experience first all day, every day, sh'on...]...I'm just noting that there may be a small fallacy in that last sentence.

eserfeliz

I dunno, in this day and age, do you know of someone getting hired on without experience, education or a cert?

erpadmin

I think N2IT mentioned some hot waitress that worked at Denny's in a thread that was like this one.

While I can't personally answer that question, I'd be foolish to believe it is not happening somewhere. I'd also be foolish to believe that's more rule than exception.

My whole thing though is that I still rank experience, education and then certs though. Anyone can get in the door...it's up to the individual to stay inside though.

ptilsen

If you can prove technical skill you can get a job in IT without any qualifications. However, it would be extremely difficult and certainly make the effort of getting an A+ worth it. You can always get a job with A+ and nothing else -- again, you have to show some sort of skill and present yourself well, but I would contend that it is far from difficult to get a job in IT lacking qualifications. Still, the more you have, the better off you'll be.

WafflesAndRootbeer

eserfeliz wrote: »

I dunno, in this day and age, do you know of someone getting hired on without experience, education or a cert?

It happens all the time with smaller outfits where turn over is a regular thing, but it's pretty rare in the real world because any recognized name in the IT business requires you to have a minimal level of certifications for continued employment. The closest you can get to being hired with nothing is being hired on a temporary basis and given three to six months to get whatever the minimal required certs are, which is usually just the A+ and perhaps some vendor/product-specific certs that pertain to whatever you are working with.

UnixGuy

Depends on the employer. Some employers are sensitive and don't like people with degrees. Some employers don't recruit people unless they have a degrees. Some won't recruit anyone with certs...

It's all about the insecurities of your new boss


Having said that...sure if you can, get the best degree possible and get the best certs possible and the best experience possible. It's all a matter of opportunity. Even if you missed out on getting an undergrad degree from your dream school, you can still enroll in a graduate degree, no matter how old you are..


By the way, not all MIT and Stanford graduates have free tickets to success, and they're not all particularly bright. You need to be a good test taker, that's the skill you need there.

I know few (from MIT ,Illinois Urbana Champaign) who ended up working for Qualcomm and Microsoft, and they don't particularly enjoy their job, and it's an entry level job. Some started a business, but the success rate of start-ups isn't particularly high.

PhildoBaggins

I have interviewed so many morons for network engineering roles. Pleanty of degrees (purdue, byu and other decent schools). Pleanty of certs (MCTIP:EA, CCIE). But when looking at who we wanted to hire we took a few things into account:

Knowledge: A CCIE is knowledge, a Masters is knowledge. What does the candidate posses in terms of formal education.
Experience: What knowledge has the candidate absorbed over time. Is there a reasonable gain of knowledge along with experience. (If I worked at a gas station for 10 years you best belive I would know how to boil up some crude to make gasoline)

I always want someone who has the knowledge of a CCIE, VCP, CCNP, CCNA, MCITPx, F5, Sonicwall, Compellant etc.... but I also want them to have experience.

Alot of jobs are just timing, you meet the right candidate at the right time when their experience is at the apex of knowledge and they shine with the requirements of the position.

I am however a firm believer in certifications. I want to learn about F5, I start studying for their cert. Its like a perfectly set path to learning, with an attainable goal and tangible satisfaction when the cert comes in the mail. I do not and probably will not require formal university style education to pursue my deams and fortunes in IT and networking. I have spent years doing self study every night to the point my fun and stress relief is studying, labs, discovering, pushing my 24gb of ram and ivy bridge cpu to the limit with 60 router network and 20 VMs, virtualizing ESX so I can then virualize within the virtual virtual/network....etc...

I don't know what i'm trying to say here its 230am. But to me, a senior guy at a company who tells the ceo who to hire or not hire I dont care what credentials you have as long as you love the technology, are honest about what you and are ready to work and learn.

Vik210

PhildoBaggins wrote: »

a senior guy at a company who tells the ceo who to hire or not hire I dont care what credentials you have as long as you love the technology, are honest about what you and are ready to work and learn.

I do think this is very important.
When I interview a candidate, I do look for formal education. For me, if some one has completed a bachelors or masters degree with decent grades and good uni, he/ she is trainable for me. Many times we do not have clearly defied requirements and we want a combination skills, experience, educational and certifications works well. For many sr positions l do not mind hiring a fresher with good formal education (of course if I have experienced staff to mentor new hire first month or so). In long run this helps us save money by paying average salary and this goes for their trainings and certifications (some general like CCNP/ PMP others more specific to our requirement).