Who does more money Sales or Presales ? and what are their duties?

Well the topic title explain for itself... this question is oriented to IT related sales and presales....
I would like to know what does more money and which is their responsibilities scope?

I have always though that a presales engineer should do more money than sales or postsales but at least in my company somehow it looks like a sales one get more money, but the ones that does most of the work at least for my point of view are presales and postsales engineers but thats what i think...
Anyways opinions thoughs how is in your company?

I have seem sales people do soo much money and they are like lost in the space... like they are selling a pencil and they dont know what the pencil does and then they are asking the postsales engineers what he can do with that pencil and asking him to talk with the client so the postsale engineer can explain the client hah what the hell.... is this just happens here or what?(where i saw this presales engineers does not exist just postsales and sales)
Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
Alternetworks Corp

Comments

  • paul78paul78 Member Posts: 3,016 ■■■■■■■■■■
    Hi - in my experience, every company that I have worked at, the sales person is more highly compensated, followed by pre-sales, and then post-sales. The caveat is that the sales person's compensation is variable and based on achievement of a quota. The actual base compensation of the sales people is generally lower but given variable component, a good sales person will generally make more money.

    Also - my observation was true regardless of sale of technical services/product or some other product.
  • networker050184networker050184 Mod Posts: 11,962 Mod
    The guy who closes the deal is the one that gets the money. That is sales.
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  • NightShade1NightShade1 Member Posts: 431
    paul78 wrote: »
    Hi - in my experience, every company that I have worked at, the sales person is more highly compensated, followed by pre-sales, and then post-sales. The caveat is that the sales person's compensation is variable and based on achievement of a quota. The actual base compensation of the sales people is generally lower but given variable component, a good sales person will generally make more money.

    Also - my observation was true regardless of sale of technical services/product or some other product.


    I dont find this fair... as the sales man depends a lot on the presales guy but well thats my personal opinion... i think a good presales with technical skills and sales skills should be the one earning more than all...
    Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
    Alternetworks Corp
  • paul78paul78 Member Posts: 3,016 ■■■■■■■■■■
    I dont find this fair... as the sales man depends a lot on the presales guy but well thats my personal opinion...
    That may be true. But sales actually does require quite a bit of intrinsic soft-skills which not everyone has. And there is a certain type of mercenary mindset that is needed by good sales people. And managing and filling a full sales pipeline can be quite challenging. A pre-sales person is dealing with a qualified lead which in most organizations has already been vetted and "found" by sales. And dealing with the commercial negotiations is typically the sales person's job which can also be an arduous art-form.
  • NightShade1NightShade1 Member Posts: 431
    paul78 wrote: »
    That may be true. But sales actually does require quite a bit of intrinsic soft-skills which not everyone has. And there is a certain type of mercenary mindset that is needed by good sales people. And managing and filling a full sales pipeline can be quite challenging. A pre-sales person is dealing with a qualified lead which in most organizations has already been vetted and "found" by sales. And dealing with the commercial negotiations is typically the sales person's job which can also be an arduous art-form.

    I dont think i willl understand this until i reach a sales position to see how hard is it....
    I bealive that if you do know the product and know everything that it can do, and all the configs etc you should be able to just fine... the main thing that wants to know the client as for my point of view is why he should buy us x solution, or how that x solution can save him money...

    The thing is that i do a postsale and presales postion(for some solutions) in my company and i just see the salesman asking me everything i actually dont see him doing a hard work at the end i feel im the one that is convincing the client to buy our product and not the sales man... or it might be because we are small company? dunno... and thats why i dont understand...
    The salessman is like okay here i got a client and throw it to me and tell practically tell me to make the client buy to us. And well after that i have to install it and configure it... i just feel im doing more of the work thats all.

    What im trying is well trying to tell the managers to create a full presales position in which i can work maybe...
    Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
    Alternetworks Corp
  • shodownshodown Member Posts: 2,271
    Money to be made in both. The highest I saw for a presales engineer was a million dollar commision for a very VERY large IPT project. I heard the sales guy got way more than that.
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  • JackaceJackace Member Posts: 335
    Sales usually has a bigger upside in pay, but they also have a bigger downside. If you are good at sales and can manage those relationships then you can make a lot of money, but if not you will be poor. I have tried sales before and I do okay at it, but it is not something I enjoy and thus my motivation is low. The hardest or most demanding thing about sales for me was generating solid leads. It's exhausting the number of phone calls most sales people perform in a week, many of them solicitation type phone calls. It's just not an enjoyable way to make a living for me.
  • NightShade1NightShade1 Member Posts: 431
    Jackace wrote: »
    Sales usually has a bigger upside in pay, but they also have a bigger downside. If you are good at sales and can manage those relationships then you can make a lot of money, but if not you will be poor. I have tried sales before and I do okay at it, but it is not something I enjoy and thus my motivation is low. The hardest or most demanding thing about sales for me was generating solid leads. It's exhausting the number of phone calls most sales people perform in a week, many of them solicitation type phone calls. It's just not an enjoyable way to make a living for me.
    Well i want to try presales... i do enjoy doing demos and technically knowing what im doing and why im doing it that way... I like making recomendations and all that kind of stuff...
    postsales is okay but i dont want to stay all my life atending calls and stuff that the network is down or that i got this issue fix it or fix stuff... i enjoy more doing designs and presales stuff (as far for what i have seem of what a presales engineer does) the other good thing is that you do commision for your work.. on postsales you dont... but well in my company they are trying to have us all happy... they are implementing comissions for postsales engineers for example if you are configuring something and you make them somehow to buy something you will get a comission of that but it just not the same i guess, but its good.
    Anyways just for curosity
    What does a presales engineer for example in IT in your country? or in your company? i would like to know if it the same in here, which it should be the same i guess..

    Like you said i dont think i would enjoy a sales position but presales is cool
    Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
    Alternetworks Corp
  • lantechlantech Member Posts: 329
    The sales guy does a lot of work that you aren't seeing. Sales is not an easy job to do for most. And the base pay scale is usually lower if they have one at all. That's why they get a higher commission than everyone else. Sales can be very demanding at times. I've seen what my sales guy here had to go through and I wouldn't want his job no matter how much they paid me.
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  • ValsacarValsacar Member Posts: 336
    The question is wrong, it's not about who makes more money, it's what job would you enjoy doing more.
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  • NightShade1NightShade1 Member Posts: 431
    lower base payscale? haahhah thats what you think...the one in my company has a really high base pay scale( his base pay scale is higher than any postsales engineer not even if its a senior one is higher than the base payscale of that saleman) and i have seem the same on other companies... ah yeah he has a good commission...
    Anyways its true what you say i have seem sales man with low pay scale but you know where? in the computer stores... not in IT selling wireless solutions, Microsoft solution etc...

    You know i saw one company in which his system i find it really fair... and i really liked it.
    If the sales man ask for help to the presales for somethng then the presales get part of his commission... if he ask to the post sale then part of his commission goes also to the post sales and so on....
    He has to learn to do the things by himself without depending on others or he had to share his commission! that's a good system :P

    Anyways yeah its true maybe im not seeing a lot of his work because i never been in that position... but for now what i see is that the post sales does almost all his work and he gets paid better :)
    It would be nice that if someone here has been in a sales position that can explain us what you have to do as IT sales man?
    Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
    Alternetworks Corp
  • NightShade1NightShade1 Member Posts: 431
    Valsacar wrote: »
    The question is wrong, it's not about who makes more money, it's what job would you enjoy doing more.


    It could be but i want to do what i enjoy making a lot of money? well who don't? :)
    Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
    Alternetworks Corp
  • jibbajabbajibbajabba Member Posts: 4,317 ■■■■■■■■□□
    In our company ...

    Pre-Sales - doing the work - permanent employed - bonuses paid out quarterly based on Sales performance - pretty secure job

    Sales - Closing the deal - permanent employed but salary comission based - if targets not reached - back on the (job)market - more money - less secure job
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  • NightShade1NightShade1 Member Posts: 431
    jibbajabba wrote: »
    In our company ...

    Pre-Sales - doing the work - permanent employed - bonuses paid out quarterly based on Sales performance - pretty secure job

    Sales - Closing the deal - permanent employed but salary comission based - if targets not reached - back on the (job)market - more money - less secure job


    Well now you mention thats true... if he cannot reach his target for many months employers can fire him...
    But if the salesman is with a really good presales guy heh... that wont happen... if he is with apresales guy that is not that good then it can be troublesome i guess...

    Anyways good points jibbajabba!
    Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
    Alternetworks Corp
  • lantechlantech Member Posts: 329
    Yes, you have to have a good presales guy. There is no doubt about that. But you also have to have a good salesman. Think of it like this.

    A potential customer has a need to be filled. There are multiple companies out there that can fill that need. Maybe the company you work for deals with only one vendor or maybe multiple vendors. And that goes the same with other companies as well. So the company that has a need to be filled calls your company and several other companies in the process. You all design a solution that will fill that potential customers need. Each company has its own price that it wants to sell their solution for.

    The question for the potential customer is why should they go with company A when company B also has a solution that will work. This is where the salesman comes in. He is the one that closes the deal for your company in some way. The easy part is designing a solution for a company. The hard part is getting that company to buy your solution when there are other companies out there that can also offer a solution for that potential customer.
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  • NightShade1NightShade1 Member Posts: 431
    lantech wrote: »
    Yes, you have to have a good presales guy. There is no doubt about that. But you also have to have a good salesman. Think of it like this.

    A potential customer has a need to be filled. There are multiple companies out there that can fill that need. Maybe the company you work for deals with only one vendor or maybe multiple vendors. And that goes the same with other companies as well. So the company that has a need to be filled calls your company and several other companies in the process. You all design a solution that will fill that potential customers need. Each company has its own price that it wants to sell their solution for.

    The question for the potential customer is why should they go with company A when company B also has a solution that will work. This is where the salesman comes in. He is the one that closes the deal for your company in some way. The easy part is designing a solution for a company. The hard part is getting that company to buy your solution when there are other companies out there that can also offer a solution for that potential customer.

    Well then im mixing stuff here...
    Because i feel im the one that is making the client buy our solution im telling him why ours is better or the sale man just repeat what i say or he just give me the phone and tell me hey explain the client here you got hahhaah wth
    I know i sounds really close minded in this.... the issue is our company with a particular salesman i guess... because now i think of, the other 2 salesman in our company does the things you saying a salesman should do! they are not giving me the phone or stuff like that.

    Anyways thanks for the opinions... :)
    Product Manager - ArubaNetworks
    Alternetworks Corp
  • KeenerKeener Member Posts: 146 ■■■■□□□□□□
    While a good Engineer needs to present themselves well and show that they know what they are doing, a good salesman is building the relationship and should be doing a lot more than just handing the phone to the engineer.

    Here is an example from personal experience. I was choosing a vendor for services in supporting barcode guns at a manufacturing plant. It came down to 2 companies. They both offered similar SLAs for their services. Company A was cheaper than company B by a fair amount. Both companies had been around for a while. I chose company B because the salesman was more responsive and built a better relationship than company A did. He offered more through his personal touch than just the services the company offered.

    A good salesman will generate repeat sales, not just a 1 time sales. It sounds like that particular sales person isn't very good.
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  • chmodchmod Member Posts: 360 ■■■□□□□□□□
    lower base payscale? haahhah thats what you think...the one in my company has a really high base pay scale( his base pay scale is higher than any postsales engineer not even if its a senior one is higher than the base payscale of that saleman) and i have seem the same on other companies... ah yeah he has a good commission...
    Anyways its true what you say i have seem sales man with low pay scale but you know where? in the computer stores... not in IT selling wireless solutions, Microsoft solution etc...

    The higher they get paid the lower they commission.
  • chmodchmod Member Posts: 360 ■■■□□□□□□□
    Work in sales is definitely not an easy task, requires a lot of soft skills, patience, developing a good relationship with key persons, sweet talk(not just technical). U need both things if u want to sale(technical knowledge and sales ability) but by far work in sales is harder(or maybe not harder but not for everyone).
  • antondsilvaantondsilva Member Posts: 1 ■□□□□□□□□□
    edited March 2
    I earn more than 90 percent of the sales guys I work with. The 10 percent who earn more than me are the senior guys with my level of experience (15+ years) and hit over 120 percent of their targets. Again Presales means different things in different places. In some companies they are demo dollies.  In IT services/Consulting companies, they play a more consultative role . And then there are places where Presales is Presales + architects + customer success all roled in one . Depends on what you are doing and which compnay you work for and what is your specialisation. If you are the Presales guys who is designing a solution involving multiple products and infrastructure that drives business process transformation and not just selling a particular product, then definitely you are worth more than the sales guy who is primarily driving relationships and commercials. 
  • DatabaseHeadDatabaseHead Teradata Assc 16, Querying Microsoft SQL Server 2012/2014, CSM Member Posts: 2,643 ■■■■■■■■■□
    edited March 2
    I earn more than 90 percent of the sales guys I work with. The 10 percent who earn more than me are the senior guys with my level of experience (15+ years) and hit over 120 percent of their targets. Again Presales means different things in different places. In some companies they are demo dollies.  In IT services/Consulting companies, they play a more consultative role . And then there are places where Presales is Presales + architects + customer success all roled in one . Depends on what you are doing and which compnay you work for and what is your specialisation. If you are the Presales guys who is designing a solution involving multiple products and infrastructure that drives business process transformation and not just selling a particular product, then definitely you are worth more than the sales guy who is primarily driving relationships and commercials. 

    I agree (except your last sentence), some sales executives have the relationship forged through years of experience in a specific domain and without them, you lose the business.....   The company I worked for previously had 1 - 2 salespeople who really drove almost all the North American sales.  They made a ton of money, way more than pre-sales....   The rest of the salespeople made about the same or slightly less.

    Give you an example presales engineers made a base ~175 USD, with a annual bonus of ~55% if target was met, if exceeded could double bonus 110%

    Normal Sales folks ~100 base quarterly bonuses with an annual.  Most of these folks couldn't double bonus due to their quarterly.  

    The true players who have major inroads in the market, made all commissions, % off the gross of the deal.  In one instance one of the sales guys made 2% commission off a 40,000,000 dollar deal, 800 k in one deal.  He closed 4 large deals like that in the same year.  He grossed over 2 million easy.  Presales will never touch that.  

    Of course that doesn't happen every year but.....   If the deal is reupped for services that sales executive gets a % off any new revenue.  

  • SteveLavoieSteveLavoie Member Posts: 961 ■■■■■■■■□□
    edited March 2
    Sales is hard work. It look easy because as a nerd we value knowledge first and most sales guy are not the most knowleageable. It is really a different skillset than pre-sales or post sales engineering. For the money part, a good sales guy will make nice money selling your product or another company's product, most sale guy dont care what they are selling as long as they get their cut, so compensate them well if they are good. 
  • scott28ttscott28tt Member Posts: 682 ■■■■■□□□□□
    As has been mentioned, an Account Exec would typically be on more of a variable package compared to a Sales Engineer, something like:

    AE on 50% salary, 50% commission
    SE on 70-80% salary, 20-30% commission

    Hopefully the SE has a higher salary, but the likelihood is that a good AE who is at least meeting their targets will earn more overall.

    If you’re driven by technology, be an SE - you’ll love it and be paid well enough.
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  • SteveLavoieSteveLavoie Member Posts: 961 ■■■■■■■■□□
    Sales is not about technology... it is about business, people and money.. as @scott28tt said, if you're driven by technology be an SE. Lot of exposure to customer, and almost no support in the middle of the night.  
  • DatabaseHeadDatabaseHead Teradata Assc 16, Querying Microsoft SQL Server 2012/2014, CSM Member Posts: 2,643 ■■■■■■■■■□
    edited March 4
    Sales is not about technology... it is about business, people and money.. as @scott28tt said, if you're driven by technology be an SE. Lot of exposure to customer, and almost no support in the middle of the night.  
    I agree Sales is not about technology, mostly.  But the relationship component is brutal at least for guys like myself and it sounds like you as well.  I'm a database nerd who loves to come up with solutions, I'll even build financial cost models or anything in the finance, accounting space such as reports etc, but glad-handing is not my thing nor can I do it very well.   (And I can speak fairly well on conference calls etc).  It's more of a level of comfort when engaging or so it seems.  

    Since moving to a new city I have very few friends one I met through my daughter, her friends father and he is a salesman.  And one time going out with him you unmistakenly can see that's his profession.  It's never a doubt in your mind.   :smile:

    Sorry to be verbose, but it's like an good artist or musician, there is a certain component of DNA that is involved or at least the attitude skills must be learned at a young age.  

    I like staying on the back end enabling and supporting these folks.....
  • SteveLavoieSteveLavoie Member Posts: 961 ■■■■■■■■□□
    Yeah.. I am more SE and tech lead inclined than a sales person people. The social interaction in my SE role is more than enough for me. However, I can close the sales if required.. but I dont like wasting my time chit-chatting and finding nice lead. 
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