Cloud storage your thoughts on it please

MrXpert

Hello

I'm just wondering what people's thoughts are on cloud storage providers such as google drive, skydrive and amazon? do you use it? is it your main backup of all your stuff or do you use it to purely share files and have off-site storage? would you trust it? or are you like me...old fashioned and prefers raid setups and multiple PCs and backups?

Many small/medium companies seemed to be using these services a lot and although it may seem really good I wonder if they keep backups elsewhere or are they purely relying on the cloud. Also users of these services don't know who really has access to the data held in the cloud. Bigger security concerns arise when data is migrated from one server to another. it just seems a bit dodgey in my opinion when companies start relying on the cloud in order to safe money

I've played about with a few different cloud vendors but couldn't work out how to share files using Amazon Cloud. it's possible the option to share hasn't been developed yet with them? To be honest though I store all my files on my hard disk, have another drive for backups + another PC which I sync to using filesync. great free program and very efficient.
Every few days I then backup important files onto a USB memory stick using Cobian, which allows for full,incremental and differential backups. I encrypt the files at the same time using AES128.
So basically I have 3-4 backups of important stuff. Am I an old git to do this? or do I need to become more hip and jive and put my trust into the cloud and hope for five nines of uptime?

I used to backup onto DVD a few years ago but realized how inefficient it was especially when you're dealing with limited storage capacity and several sessions.DVDs still good though for some things, especially when you archive stuff.

Mike-Mike

I have found myself using SkyDrive more and more. Originally I was using it to save me the hassle of carrying a USB drive around, but now I find it to be very useful.

Keep in mind I use Windows at home, have an xbox and a Windows phone, and my main email is an @live.com account, so I'm all in the Windows EcoSystem

cyberguypr

Just be careful what you put there.

Watch what you store on SkyDrive; you may lose your Microsoft life | WMPoweruser

tpatt100

I use Dropbox and Google Drive. I have the applications installed on my laptop. I moved my iPhoto data store into Dropbox so I am always syncing a copy online. Google Drive I use for classwork materials.

Mike-Mike

cyberguypr wrote: »

Just be careful what you put there.

Watch what you store on SkyDrive; you may lose your Microsoft life | WMPoweruser

I never use it as my sole means of storage, it's normally my secondary location

MentholMoose

Mike-Mike wrote: »

I never use it as my sole means of storage, it's normally my secondary location

The linked article is not only about losing access to your files, but also to everything else tied to the account. So if you broke the SkyDrive code of conduct and got caught, it seems you could lose access to basically everything tied to your account... e.g. your live.com email, Xbox Gamertag, and phone apps.

jibbajabba

I actually setup a server with my own Cloud Storage.

Works a charm from PC / Windows and Phone ..

log32

jibbajabba wrote: »

I actually setup a server with my own Cloud Storage.

Works a charm from PC / Windows and Phone ..

was just about to refer to the same Service as jibbajabba, OwnCloud is an amazing program that may suit you the best if you're one of those that prefer to rely on themselves rather than 'random' companies to backup their files.
OwnCloud give you the privilege to have your own cloud server, while enabling you the access to your files from your mobile device (app costs 4$ for android) and sync multiple directories on your computer with your server (unlike dropbox which lets you sync only one folder).
I recommend you to use it, I think this is the solution you're looking for. its easy as hell setting up a Linux server (that's what I did) to host your owncloud server, all you need is apache and some storage.

Roguetadhg

I'm still a fan of not giving people my data.

I mean - that's why I have a thumbdrive. If I can't transfer something via thumbdrive, then I don't need it. Except for photobucket and pictures. These are pictures I could care less what happens to, and I only use them because of forums

As far are business-wise, that's why I have my information stored on my computer, and then backed up to other-site server. Again, I just don't feel comfortable giving more information to people that don't need it.

tpatt100

MentholMoose wrote: »

The linked article is not only about losing access to your files, but also to everything else tied to the account. So if you broke the SkyDrive code of conduct and got caught, it seems you could lose access to basically everything tied to your account... e.g. your live.com email, Xbox Gamertag, and phone apps.

Yeah I noticed that....Probably good thing to keep storage to just a "storage" service.

jibbajabba

Dolev wrote: »

I recommend you to use it, I think this is the solution you're looking for. its easy as hell setting up a Linux server (that's what I did) to host your owncloud server, all you need is apache and some storage.

Helped me during an interview too lol - CTO asked if I had a copy of my resume / cv with me (and I had not chance to print one out) - so OwnCloud'ed it on my iPad and he could scroll through it

MrXpert

After all that I think i'll still stick to mainly my flash drives, raid and a decent file sync, backup software

jibbajabba

MrXpert wrote: »

After all that I think i'll still stick to mainly my flash drives, raid and a decent file sync, backup software

Can't beat it really. In my environment I got a lab in house - backups are being copied over to another NAS on a Microserver and important things I got on an external USB drive in the office ... Can't beat double and trible backups

tpatt100

I have a NAS at home, the main reason I use cloud storage is for stuff I want access to like homework, which I produce a ton of PDF files because I don't print to paper for notes.

Ahriakin

The only online storage I use is dedicated encrypted backup where the vendor does not have the key.
Besides the access issues that Skydrive report is a good example of why to avoid it. The guy was suspended for questionable content...fair enough, it's against their EULA, but it was a private drive, which means nobody else could have reported it...which means they were going through his data (presumably with an automated image scanner but ye never know). Bottom line anything you store online is not yours, encrypt it or accept the loss of ownership.

networkjutsu

There's really no reason for me to use Dropbox, Skydrive, and etc. I have my Synology NAS at home that can do majority of these stuff.

jfitzg

networkjutsu wrote: »

There's really no reason for me to use Dropbox, Skydrive, and etc. I have my Synology NAS at home that can do majority of these stuff.

Ok, so what happens if your house burns down or two drives in your RAID 5 array fail (happens more often than you realize)?

StussyNz

I use Google Drive, just to store files which I may need access to in i'm on the move.

I don't think I would use Cloud based storage as a primary storage area as here in New Zealand we still have Bandwidth caps on our Broadband plans.

Roguetadhg

2 drives, at the same time?

if his house burns down the data might be the least of his worries!

jfitzg

Roguetadhg wrote: »

2 drives, at the same time?

yes, two drives failing within a short time of each other, it happens all the time, RAID 5 isnt as great as most people think. Ive seen it happen several times personally.

Roguetadhg wrote: »

if his house burns down the data might be the least of his worries!

Really? What if you are in grad school working on your PHD and keep all your research on this NAS device since he seems to think its just as safe as any cloud based backup? Goodbye to all of your research, ask any doctoral student how that feels.. How about precious memories such as pictures of your first child? These are just a few examples of significant data that can be lost that would not be "the least of his worries". Or what if the NAS fails and the RAID array is broken? Goodbye data! Well, unless you want to drop $10,000 at Drivesavers that is...

Roguetadhg

I've never had two drives fail at the same time, or short (less than a week) amount of time that I wouldn't be able to buy a replacement from newegg and have it shipped to me. I've heard of schools deciding not to invest in RAID, and a single harddrive fails. However, I have not heard of a RAID drive failing, and then another in a short amount of time. I'm not saying it's not impossible, as there's always exceptions; I've never heard of it.

/puts on tin hat

However, I'm more worried about the fact that your data isn't "yours". It's the property of whomever you keep the information. A lot of legal issues that I wouldn't want to deal with. I don't doubt the depth of human depravity to take advantage of the "little guy." - When it comes to something that's definitely worth money. Atleast when I last checked the fine print, it's theirs - not yours.

/takes off tin hat

I'm not all up on the legal battles but there's a few - Ownership of All Digital Content: Songs, Games, Videos, Stuff.

The least I give away, the least I need to worry about.

the_Grinch

Each one of our users and one of our servers use MozyPro as their backup. Works great and we've had no issues getting data.

jfitzg

Roguetadhg wrote: »

I've never had two drives fail at the same time, or short (less than a week) amount of time that I wouldn't be able to buy a replacement from newegg and have it shipped to me. I've heard of schools deciding not to invest in RAID, and a single harddrive fails. However, I have not heard of a RAID drive failing, and then another in a short amount of time. I'm not saying it's not impossible, as there's always exceptions; I've never heard of it.

Thats great, Ive seen it happen several times so whats your point? Two jobs ago I was a systems engineer at a 10000 employee company, we had the data center onsite containing several Celerras and Clariions , I had to go in and meet an EMC rep at 10pm one night because we had three drives fail in one day on one of our Celerras, fortunately the three discs wernt in the same arrays so no data was lost.At my last job at a MSP we had a customer lose two discs in his VNX-e SAN and had to have data shipped to him from the cloud provider he was replicating to, had he not replicated to a offsite location of any type he would have lost everything. If you believe RAID 5 is almost impervious to failure you are very wrong. Search on Toms Hardware and read all the stories of failed RAID 5 arrays. Plus there are several other issues with RAID 5, such as read errors during the rebuild of a replaced drive.

Here is some more reading on the subject:

How reliable RAID really is

RLR-UK: How Reliable is RAID? Blog

How To Keep Management from Requiring RAID 5 - Spiceworks

Why RAID 5 stops working in 2009 | ZDNet

http://serverfault.com/questions/97078/raid5-2-disk-failure-what-steps-to-take

http://superuser.com/questions/11607/looking-for-an-actual-experience-of-raid-5-2-drive-failure

Edit: I found a good book on the topic, I suggest you download it and read it.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Storage_Management_in_Data_Centers.html?id=kHV_4s-QBQwC

networkjutsu

I've read some of those links before. I have a backup external drive right now, which needs to be set up correctly to do automated backup. Eventually, I want another Synology NAS that will serve as a backup. Preferably, I want to be able to back it up offsite. However, that would mean I need another location with Internet.

I think at this point of my career I can assess what the risks are. Please have a little respect to others. Please don't treat them like they don't know anything.

Roguetadhg

Thank you for the readings, jfitzg. I'll get to them tomorrow morning. I won't be able to buy the eBook, but I'll add that to my backlog of technical books to buy.

wes allen

I have seen more then a couple raid 5 loose more then one drive and only good backups saved the client, except when they didn't have those...

Cloud stuff is interesting for sure, lots of different ways to look at it. One thing to remember though, is that Availability is one of the key goals of ITSec, so if you don't have access to your files, you are failing at security anyway. Most cloud providers probably have much higher levels of operations and physical security then your house does. Plus, there are some things you can do with dropbox (strong passwords, two factor auth, and a secure password recovery email account) to make is reasonably secure. Same with some of the others, though dropbox supports google authenticator, which is free.

Along with a local backup drive, I also use Crashplan for backup, but the files are encrypted with my key before they leave my mac. $50 a year is cheap piece of mind.

jfitzg

networkjutsu wrote: »

I've read some of those links before. I have a backup external drive right now, which needs to be set up correctly to do automated backup. Eventually, I want another Synology NAS that will serve as a backup. Preferably, I want to be able to back it up offsite. However, that would mean I need another location with Internet.

I think at this point of my career I can assess what the risks are. Please have a little respect to others. Please don't treat them like they don't know anything.

If you can assess the risks properly then you would know your home NAS is no no way shape or form equivalent to a major cloud based storage service such as Dropbox, Box.com, etc... But its your precious materials at stake, im not going to tell you what to do. btw I have plenty of respect for others, people here have different skill sets. For example, you can blow me out of the water 1000x over in regards to networking, I was just asking questions that you may have not thought of before. Sorry if I come off as crass but its just my personality.

jfitzg

Roguetadhg wrote: »

Thank you for the readings, jfitzg. I'll get to them tomorrow morning. I won't be able to buy the eBook, but I'll add that to my backlog of technical books to buy.

No problem, RAID 5 reliability is a common misconception that many people have (including myself for the longest time), the ebook I linked to is a great resource which delves into the foundations of enterprise SAN storage, but unfortunately focuses on Veritas. The real big players today in enterprise storage are EMC and Netapp, though there are many more players out there. If you want something to read up on that is bleeding edge, find a couple books on Cisco UCS (Unified Computing System), it is a complete solution that uses Vmware for virtualization, Cisco for networking and servers, and Netapp for storage. UCS is slowly creeping into enterprise architectures, while the IT market is slow to adapt, IMO everything will be going to UCS over the next 5 to 10 years.

veritas_libertas

Roguetadhg wrote: »

I've never had two drives fail at the same time, or short (less than a week) amount of time that I wouldn't be able to buy a replacement from newegg and have it shipped to me. I've heard of schools deciding not to invest in RAID, and a single harddrive fails. However, I have not heard of a RAID drive failing, and then another in a short amount of time. I'm not saying it's not impossible, as there's always exceptions; I've never heard of it.

/puts on tin hat

However, I'm more worried about the fact that your data isn't "yours". It's the property of whomever you keep the information. A lot of legal issues that I wouldn't want to deal with. I don't doubt the depth of human depravity to take advantage of the "little guy." - When it comes to something that's definitely worth money. Atleast when I last checked the fine print, it's theirs - not yours.

/takes off tin hat

I'm not all up on the legal battles but there's a few - Ownership of All Digital Content: Songs, Games, Videos, Stuff.

The least I give away, the least I need to worry about.

I know that Carbonite and Amazon allow you to own the key to your blob of encrypted data on their servers, or have it maintained by them. I am on one of the two that I just mentioned, but I let them own it. I'm afraid of losing the key and ending up with nothing if my house burns down or or my HDD dies. I can completely understand being paranoid. This is where it would be a good idea to encrypt what stuff you care about on your computer and let it get pulled up to cloud in that format. You could use GnuPG, etc.

I have pictures from my wedding, my kids, and honestly if my house burned down I would care more about the pictures than the house. That's what home owner's insurance is for :P

DevilWAH

veritas_libertas wrote: »

I have pictures from my wedding, my kids, and honestly if my house burned down I would care more about the pictures than the house. That's what home owner's insurance is for :P

Same here I use google drive for backing up pictures and videos. nothing fancy and sure any of the key players could do the job just as well. But I know that house burns down, some one breaks in and steal stuff. At least I will be able to recover some personal things. Happy to lose the house, not so happy to lose the video of my little one walking or talking for the first time.