Complacency in the workplace

f0rgiv3n

A recent very frustrating situation inspired this thread.

I started at this job 10 months ago... I HATE job hopping but the last job I had for only 9 months because I was overwhelmed with stress and hours. I work hard and have worked hard to get where I'm at, I want to have a job that uses my abilities and people recognize that. The issue I have discovered is that the job titles/positions are based mainly on longevity. I was first told they were based on competence, but when it all boils down it's longevity.

It will take me 5-6 years at this job to get to where my experience/credentials should put me right now. Everyone has been here for so long that it's just a weird culture because of it. 20-30 years is probably the average # of years at this place. The issue is that because of this, there's a lot of complacency. The team I'm on really have no idea what a CCNP is or what is going on out in the rest of the IT world.

Also, when I try to initiate any change... lots of brick walls. People hold tight onto their jobs, and resist any change. Complacent. I've tried talking with my boss but it just seems that I will be chillin' in my current position for a long time till I can move forward (based on what he said, 5-6 years, like I stated above). I'm a network monkey right now, I am not able to make any decisions. This is tough because I've always been the "go-to" network admin. So in the past I've been able to make design decisions, etc...

The things I like about the place is the pay and work/life balance is great.

Any advice from my fellow TE-ers? I'm an extremely motivated person and I do not plan on dying in this position...

Signed: a very frustrated f0rgiv3n.

Essendon

Sounds like it's time to find another gig, fast!

If you havent job-hopped in the past, I reckon you'll be fine mate. If brought up at the interview, word your words carefully and most employers would understand I reckon.

truckfit

Move on bro 2 Years into thé job and you will regret not moving.

Thé worest companies to work for are thé so called fun companies. They Say we are a relax company and as well as working we love to have fun. That means thé company takes an easy approach and a relaxing one. That is good in away because you feel healthier and enjoy coming to work each Day but the down side is the growth you grow slowly and learn very little.Work is work and companies need to take it seriously that means face down ass up.


Move on I was in your position before.

Having fun while working will get you nowhere

f0rgiv3n

@Essendon
Thanks for the advice on that. My mindset is in that position right now as well. I was just concerned about the whole 9 months then 10 months thing... sucks but hey, like I said... I work hard and I want to enjoy my job!

@truckfit
The thing is, I don't have fun if i'm not being challenged! So it's another point in the moving on side of things. I agree with the 2 years thing... If I did sit and wait it out I'd feel like I'm rotting away and not even using my skills to their potential.

shodown

If its complacency, get your CCIE and plan on moving them. Use the downtime to your advantage, start a new business, buy real estate. Everything doesn't have to be run and gun.

CISPhD

It sounds to me like f0rgiv3n is fairly young... and I doubt now is the time to simply sit back and lounge on your arse. When you're older and less energetic, you may assume a role that's a bit more slower pace, but to do so while you're young and thirsty for knowledge may impact your career for 20-30 years to come.

My advice: Ditch the current gig for something that is going to help you grow as an administrator as well as an overall technical professional. You aren't going to change anything in your current organization if your current executive leadership team isn't willing to encourage the change behind you. Change is a tone-at-the-top initiative If the company is content where it is at in the market place now, some lowly switch monkey (no disrespect intended) isn't going to turn around an entire enterprise. Save that for the idealists.

In your next interview, it's perfectly acceptable to elaborate why you're moving jobs a second time in such a short time period. If anything, openly discussing this will help to ensure that your next gig is exactly what you're looking for. It tells your prospective employer that you're thirsty for knowledge and challenge and that nothing short of a hard days work is going to pacify you. If the person you're interviewing with can't offer that, and doesn't choose you as a result, well... you've just saved yourself yet another job hop in another 10 months, right?

PM me if you want to go into greater detail on why my opinions are as such.

W Stewart

I would just say for your next job to interview the company just as much as their interviewing you. You're a CCNP so your in a pretty good position to be at least a little picky about where your willing to work.

IA-Daigakusei

@f0rgiv3n, I can understand what you're talking about. In my situation, my coworkers are complacent to sit in their positions and never want or wish to move up. Then again, there aren't many choices as far as positions to move into, but they would rather go on living and working in the same places and positions until they retired.

@CISPhDd, I, too, am fairly young and want to move up. Too many times I don't feel I'm challenged enough at work. I take the new challenges because I want experience. I do want to say though I am happy to have a job because I could be one of the many unemployed so I'm thankful for what I do have though.

WiseWun

Wait until they get downsized, they'll know what CCNP is. Start looking for a new gig and don't quit unless your offered a letter.

About7Narwhal

@ CISphD

I am fairly young; 23 to be exact. I am in a similar situation as the OP where I have gone from a decently technical Service Desk position to an OPS position where I usually just babysit, do payroll, or any other misc tasks that the company may need us to perform. Most of the people I work with are at least double my age and most of them have experience that matches or exceeds my age. The result is a group of people who do their jobs, and do them very well. They are at a point where they don't want to push to learn more, they are happy where they are.

Add a knowledge hungry "young 'un" like me to the team and there are waves. I ask questions and get strange looks or odd responses. Not because I asked a question, but because they don't understand WHY I asked. "That is how it has always been" is what I get most of the time. They are all nice and very helpful, but there is no desire to move from where they are. I personally see nothing wrong with that for them, if they like what they do.

So I guess I have taken the job and run with it and am using the abundance of downtime to study for my 70-680 and whatever else I might decide to go with in addition to classes for my associates. I have a severe lack of experience and I think OPS might be a right move for me to get into the server side of things but I would not consider this job to be a technical challenge so much as a learning experience. Would you still consider a situation like that to be wasteful or do you think it is okay for someone to build experience in a slightly less challenging position while advancing one's self through study?

Please feel free to PM me.

emerald_octane

Keep in mind they may have their hands tied down as much or moreso than yourself. Think about the CIO or the CEO who tells the CIO "look, i'm not into this fancy unified communications and I for damn sure don't care about borderless networks. We arent spending any money on anything so work with what we got and I better not hear about any downtime"

hence these young bucks come in here making waves are seen as threats to what has been working (if that's truly the case).

The best type of invironment to step into of course is one where the people are downright thirsty for change, don't mind getting their feet a little wet and got the cash to make it happen.

vCole

Are we working at the same place? I just started at my current gig 2 weeks ago......I can't get over how complacent everyone is. No change, 50% of the company (5000+ people) have been with the company for 20+ years. I definitely made the wrong choice taking this position - so I suggest you look for a gig that will allow you to grow your skill set and think outside of the box.

RouteMyPacket

f0rgiv3n wrote: »

A recent very frustrating situation inspired this thread.

I started at this job 10 months ago... I HATE job hopping but the last job I had for only 9 months because I was overwhelmed with stress and hours. I work hard and have worked hard to get where I'm at, I want to have a job that uses my abilities and people recognize that. The issue I have discovered is that the job titles/positions are based mainly on longevity. I was first told they were based on competence, but when it all boils down it's longevity.

It will take me 5-6 years at this job to get to where my experience/credentials should put me right now. Everyone has been here for so long that it's just a weird culture because of it. 20-30 years is probably the average # of years at this place. The issue is that because of this, there's a lot of complacency. The team I'm on really have no idea what a CCNP is or what is going on out in the rest of the IT world.

Also, when I try to initiate any change... lots of brick walls. People hold tight onto their jobs, and resist any change. Complacent. I've tried talking with my boss but it just seems that I will be chillin' in my current position for a long time till I can move forward (based on what he said, 5-6 years, like I stated above). I'm a network monkey right now, I am not able to make any decisions. This is tough because I've always been the "go-to" network admin. So in the past I've been able to make design decisions, etc...

The things I like about the place is the pay and work/life balance is great.

Any advice from my fellow TE-ers? I'm an extremely motivated person and I do not plan on dying in this position...

Signed: a very frustrated f0rgiv3n.

Sorry, but that is simply the company culture at work. You will NEVER change it so your options are

1. Sit and collect a check like everyone else, be lazy and complacent, be reactive and not proactive.

2. Find another opportunity

I could go on and on about my current assignment and this companies "culture", maintenance? What's a maintenance window? I'm surrounded by incompetents and check collectors and the sad thing is, nobody cares.

gadav478

I would not stick around long only because of your job and earning potential. You're a CCNP so that means your next logical step is CCIE, which takes some time to get. The down time would be great for studying for your CCIE but I don't expect you'd like to be there another year + to study for it (IF that what you want to do). See what the market is offering YOU right now and then make a decision because you have tons of options. Besides, I'm sure all of the people you work with had the same vigor you had 10 years ago, but instead of making a move, they sat there and are happily stuck there. Don't let that be you, bro.

In order to move up, you sometimes have to move on. Evaluate whether that's true for you.

j23evan

I have been in the same position, and I decided to look like a job hopper and move on. It was not an easy decision to make, but when a company resists best practices, workflow improvements, and everyone on the team is apathetic and complacent you suddenly feel like you are turning into an apathetic and complacent person. I figure happiness, a work environment conducive to personal and professional growth, and being surrounded by a team of people that are knowledgeable and ambitious is far more rewarding than any paycheck or paycheck size. Decide what you want to do, where you want to go, and how your current company fits into it. If you find that it doesn't align, learn as much as you can where you are and prepare for your next step in life. Good luck! I know what a crummy situation it is. =(

f0rgiv3n

Thanks all for the insight, it is all very good information. Ugh, I guess it's the most frustrating that my title doesn't reflect my experience/knowledge/credentials... and WON'T for 5-6 years. That right there is what punches me in the gut. You know what I got when I got my CCNP? "good job."

I'm looking at other opportunities while at the same time weighing my options. There are quite a few bennies to the company, which I could see why others would stay for that length of time. It could be a dream job for someone who isn't as motivated as me. But, I can't change who I am. It sucks because it just seems that I outgrew my position in so little time it's not even funny.

I agree with it being the company culture at work. I have worked at a company with an almost identical culture as this before, and had to leave because I pretty much outgrew my opportunities (which in turn means I outgrew the company). I just didn't expect for it to happen so fast....

f0rgiv3n

vCole wrote: »

Are we working at the same place? I just started at my current gig 2 weeks ago......I can't get over how complacent everyone is. No change, 50% of the company (5000+ people) have been with the company for 20+ years. I definitely made the wrong choice taking this position - so I suggest you look for a gig that will allow you to grow your skill set and think outside of the box.

LOL hilarious question. I don't think so... We're in different states But we're both in the same boat. What weird culture eh?

f0rgiv3n

CISPhD wrote: »

You aren't going to change anything in your current organization if your current executive leadership team isn't willing to encourage the change behind you. Change is a tone-at-the-top initiative If the company is content where it is at in the market place now, some lowly switch monkey (no disrespect intended) isn't going to turn around an entire enterprise. Save that for the idealists.

Great advice, thanks CISPhD. I guess I just didn't think of it that way. I WON'T be able to change the company culture and i shouldn't waste my time and frustration trying to. And yeah, I'm 25 nowhere near ready to just sit back and chill, I don't know how far up I can go yet, why give up now?!?!?!

vCole

f0rgiv3n wrote: »

LOL hilarious question. I don't think so... We're in different states But we're both in the same boat. What weird culture eh?

I brought it to my manager's attention, and he seemed pretty panicked about me leaving. However, looks like we're around the same age (I'm 26) - don't stay complacent, keep pushing ahead!

jfitzg

Get your CCIE, im in the same boat now and will be taking my current opportunity to get my doctorate in information assurance and pay off my wife's student loans. Take advantage of this opportunity

f0rgiv3n

jfitzg wrote: »

Get your CCIE, im in the same boat now and will be taking my current opportunity to get my doctorate in information assurance and pay off my wife's student loans. Take advantage of this opportunity

Ya see, I have! I've been here 10 months and took 5 exams. The problem is if you don't use it, you lose it. I'm afraid of losing the knowledge I've learned by not using it. Also, where are you getting a doctorate in information assurance?! Sounds awesome.

N2IT

Change is driven from the top down.

CISPhD

About7Narwhal wrote: »

...Would you still consider a situation like that to be wasteful or do you think it is okay for someone to build experience in a slightly less challenging position while advancing one's self through study?...

There are certain situations where holding a job simply to build a resume may be appropriate. It may not be the dream sys admin job you're hunting after, but having that ops role on your resume is a big step towards getting there. Furthermore, the ability to get a lot of the certs you'd like to get is a rare opportunity. I know far too many individuals who have had to do this (Make themselves more marketable) while completely unemployed. In your specific situation, I'd say you're in a good spot for a year or two. Fill out your resume with that role and a few select certs and you're in good shape to jump in a few years. At some point, the org you're in is either going to see all of their talent leaving and turn themselves around, or they already have and simply don't care. Either way, don't ever hinge your career on doing what's best for your company before doing what's best for yourself; 99/100 times, the company is going to take advantage of that, leave you in the road behind them, and not look back.

f0rgiv3n wrote: »

...And yeah, I'm 25 nowhere near ready to just sit back and chill, I don't know how far up I can go yet, why give up now?!?!?!

You're very close in age to me. There seems to be quite a few from the younger crowd here on TE. And here I thought I was fairly alone. :P

At our age, there's no reason to become stagnant in our careers. You likely, like me, have little or nothing in the way of obligations to family (kids?). My wife gets the blue ribbon for patient person of the year, but outside of that there's nothing standing in my way. I'm wrapping up my dissertation now, just took the CISM, and the CISSP is scheduled for 03/30/12, followed by the CISA in June. What the heck is holding you up? :P

Get moving on either knocking out the last of your certs, or finding that new gig. My only fear with the last of your certs is that it entails the CCIE, which is best taken when you have a real world environment to test your skills within. As a CCNP, you have a LOT of options out there. If your org isn't willing to drive change in your career, take it upon yourself. W Stewart hit the nail on the head... You do have some leverage in where you want to work. The best time to look for a new job is while you still have one. Attend a few interviews just for the hell of it. Get comfortable in the interview setting and learn the answers that companies want to hear (That's what it's about, right?). Then, when you're comfortable, start shooting for those dream jobs.

bgold87

This must be the new thing in companies these days, I too am in the same boat as you. I get into a job and learn my role inside and out and become the best I can be, then after about a year I'm ready for some new and interesting stuff to keep myself moving forward and have hit the same walls you have. In my past two positions the companies have recognized my talent, but offered no such reward or oppurtunity and was forced to move on. I'm also 25, but I feel like I don't want to waste time. I know where I want to be and don't feel like sitting around. It just seems counter intuitive.

f0rgiv3n

CISPhD wrote: »

At our age, there's no reason to become stagnant in our careers. You likely, like me, have little or nothing in the way of obligations to family (kids?). My wife gets the blue ribbon for patient person of the year, but outside of that there's nothing standing in my way. I'm wrapping up my dissertation now, just took the CISM, and the CISSP is scheduled for 03/30/12, followed by the CISA in June. What the heck is holding you up? :P

Hahaha, that's hilarious. I am actually also in the same position as you are, wife but no kids. I have CISSP planned for next year and depending on where I'm working a master's after that... possibly an MBA so I could open up a few more possibilities outside of IT. As far as interviews go, I'm pretty rock solid. I've had the opportunity to be on both sides as well as taken a few classes on interviewing. I currently am not planning on CCIE but want to transition more towards infosec and possibly mgmt. We shall see how things go from here...

I appreciate all the advice from everyone. It's great to get different perspectives on the situation. I think at this point I'm continuing down what I was suspecting I would do which is keep my eyes open for opportunities. In the meantime I'll continue what I'm doing by studying.

ajs1976

Unless a great oppurtunity comes up, wait it out for at least a year.

If you can wait a little longer and accomplish some of your other goals. Cert, education, personal, etc. Your next job may be perfect was far as what you are doing, but may be so involved that you don't have time. It happened to me.

blargoe

Being underutilized and unchallenged is a legitimate reason to look elsewhere. If a potential employer has a problem with that, then they are probably the company for whom you want to work. Don't let your skills atrophy. Find something more suited to your talents... but don't take a cut in pay to do so.

f0rgiv3n

blargoe wrote: »

Being underutilized and unchallenged is a legitimate reason to look elsewhere. If a potential employer has a problem with that, then they are probably the company for whom you want to work. Don't let your skills atrophy. Find something more suited to your talents... but don't take a cut in pay to do so.

That sums it all up blargoe. "Underutilized and unchallenged" That will most likely be my reasoning if/when it comes to that. As well as letting skills go by the way-side.

RouteMyPacket

f0rgiv3n wrote: »

The problem is if you don't use it, you lose it. I'm afraid of losing the knowledge I've learned by not using it.

Ding! Ding! Ding!


If you aren't using this new found knowledge and expanding on it through real world configurations then you absolutley only have one choice to make and you know what that is.

Like you said, you are too young to be complacent, not sure how many years you have in the game but probably not much and you can't afford to be complacent right now. Having your CCNP is an achievement, not using it and expanding your skillset is a crime.

petedude

f0rgiv3n wrote: »

Also, when I try to initiate any change... lots of brick walls. People hold tight onto their jobs, and resist any change.

This part doesn't completely sound like complacency to me. Some companies are oriented towards "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"-- this may be cultural/political, or an outgrowth of business necessity (e.g. utility companies).

As to the rest of it-- yeah, I've been shocked to see it too. You'd think that in today's world, especially in today's economy people would be more enteprenurial and willing to take charge of their own careers. But yeah, complacency still exists.

Mishra

If you don't use it, you lose it. If they don't use it, you can't learn it. I worked at a position where I did nothing new technically for 3 years. I missed out on learning server 2008 because of how slow they were and almost wasn't chosen for another job I went to.

You are more valuable to a young and moving company. If you worked at Google/Amazon in the early years and impressed a lot of people (even making less money) you would have tons of contacts that moved on to other companies wanting them to bring you to the new company almost assuredly making tons of money.

It's perfectly fine to work at this company for a year if you want a break... Then move on. Your choice.

Lastly, you are in an awesome position right now... I wouldn't stress over this. Having tons of choices is always better than having none.