Age Discrimination - Worth Posting This Letter

CISPhD

Someone (will remain nameless if they wish) sent me a note asking for my feedback on age discrimination. I ended up responding in kind, and decided the response was worth posting for everyone to read. Warning: If you're a "baby boomer" you might find this note a bit crass. Yes I am stereotyping, no I don't care, yes you can complain, no I won't listen.

At any rate here we go, feel free to post your experience as well as I'm sure this individual could benefit from others. If you're open to it, please post your age at the beginning of your post so the rest of us have some context.

anon wrote:

Hey man,

I've chatted with you a few times on some threads on here and realized we're both in similar situations: young, successful and married no kids.

Since we're around the same age I was curious if you've ever run across something that I run into. Age discrimination. Since you are in management I was curious if you ever have problems gaining the respect of those you manage because of your age? I'm sure you have a variety of people ranging from young to older... If you have dealt with it, what did you do?

Also, sorry to force you to think about this while you are in the middle of a dilemma. Congrats on the new job offer btw, and good luck on your decision! I was going to post something in the thread but everyone pretty much said it all... It all comes down to what your priorities are from now and going forward. I hope it works out for you either way you decide.

Hey Bud,

Thanks for reaching out. I'm happy to answer a few questions and perhaps put your mind at ease. Then again... I could just make it worse. I'll start with a bit of a profile so you can get some context and apply this info to yourself as needed.

I am a 26 year old male who has been married for 6 years, together for 9 years. I graduated from high school in 2004, got my associate's in CIS in 2006, and by bachelor's in CIS in early 2007. Following that, I moved to where I am now and pursued a double master's degree for IS management and business administration. Following those two degrees, I am finalizing my education with a PhD in CIS Security and CIS Management. From a professional perspective, I took my first sys admin job in 2005. I was working part time at a photo restoration company making $11.50 an hour to administer a very small network. After a year of working there, I moved to a region based consulting firm that focused on managed services provision. I started there at 16 an hour, and progressed as my education did over the next 5 years to an end point of 50K per year. I left that org in October of 2011 for where I am now. The move was a no-brainer as they were doubling my salary, giving me a larger team with more learning opportunities, and tuition reimbursement. And finally, as you're aware I am now considering a move to a Fortune 10 company for what has turned into a 40% wage increase and hefty retirement options (That's right, I'm 26 and talking about retirement... you should be too). On the certification front, I never put much weight into it until recently, subsequently ending up here. I passed a small time Microsoft cert back in 2009, but didn't do anything else until this past December of 2012. I sat the CISM exam, and am obviously still awaiting results (I think I killed it though). Presently, I'm studying to sit the CISSP exam. We'll see where that goes, but the exam is bought and paid for and is set to write in two months on March 30th. There you have it, a not-so-short run down of my academic and professional career. Take it for what it's worth, and apply the following advice where you may. YMMV

Referencing you're specific point above: Age discrimination is something that all young professionals have to deal with. The baby boomer age is very "old-school" insofar as if you haven't spent 30 years in the industry, you've no idea what you're on about. Never mind the fact that you've spent the better part of the last decade with your face in a book studying the theories on which these geezers have built their IT reliance upon. Granted, there's something to be said about real world experience versus theory, but it doesn't excuse the complete lack of open-mindedness that I've seen within not only our industry, but many other "evolving" industries. I think it may center around their discomfort of the fact that the world is changing so fast that they can't keep up, and all that stuff they've been dealing with for 30 years is largely irrelevant in today's market. Call it what you will, I call it jealousy. *shrug*

At any rate... My particular experience with age discrimination has been fairly light, and is more of an annoyance than a real problem. In my last job, I was making half what I was worth simply because I had worked at that job since before my first college degree was done. So... of course the company was still paying me like I was in college. Jumping ship to a new company was the only way to get what I was worth. As I stepped into this new role, there was a bit of a culture shock for me... Going from a SMB to an enterprise org. I manage a team of over a dozen people in my current role. Each and every one of them is older than myself. Some of them only by a few years, but most of them are old enough to be my dad. When I first started this role, I was very keen to NOT mention my real age. Call it the stress of 90 hour weeks at the previous job, plus another 40 hours a week at a second job to make ends meet for the family, but I certainly don't look 26. I easily pass for my mid-30s, and if I told someone I was 40, they'd probably believe me and ask what kind of night cream I use. Working with this team for over a year now, I have come to EARN their respect. I wouldn't say I fought much, if any, in the way of age discrimination here, but I'm sure it may have been present without my realizing it. I'm sure my credentials and ability to manage a team responsibly spoke for itself. My current boss certainly treats me with a degree of childishness, but that may very well be his being intimidated by my success at such a young age (I'm truly qualified to do his job should they put him behind the 8-ball).

Now... age discrimination in the field is something to think about as well. I'm not sure what kind of role you have in your organization, but on more than one occasion, my previous employer would refuse to take me on their sales calls. Once they had sealed the contract with signatures, I was in turn allowed to meet the client. This was specifically due to my age. The president of the company was afraid that if the clients saw some hot-shot 20 year old about to stick his hands in their $500,000 network gear, they'd have a bit of a freak out moment and retire the contract. This separation was indeed enforced by my own manager, but not because she thought that I wasn't qualified. She knew very well what my abilities were, and that I was one of the most useful engineers she had. Again, this involved some time of me PROVING to the company that I know my stuff. She knew what I was worth, but feared that clients (those damn baby boomers) wouldn't be quite so understanding. If that isn't age discrimination, I don't know what is.

Working with age discrimination is easy enough I suppose. Verbal articulation is one of the best things you can do to help with that. Presenting yourself as a distinguished and polished professional in BOTH the spoken and written context is key. There are many individuals that I worked with over email for years who had no idea that I was a 23 year old college grad just getting started in the industry. Why? Because I talked the talk just like those god-forsaken baby boomers.

You asked the specific question of "I was curious if you ever have problems gaining the respect of those you manage because of your age?"... I have never had a problem gaining their respect over time. However, don't mistake this answer for thinking I didn't have a harder time of it because of my age. There are VP jobs out there that I am qualified for that I don't get because of political reasons (Political is a euphemism for age discrimination . However, I live a very comfortable life with my current opportunities, and I simply need to be patient. Not everything is in a title.

TL;DR: Earning respect at a young age is hard. Keep your nose to the grind stone, and present yourself professionally, and before you know it you're just another successful business associate. Be prepared to lather-rinse-repeat if you change organizations or professional settings.

Hope this helps.

C

swild

CISPhD wrote: »

Working with age discrimination is easy enough I suppose. Verbal articulation is one of the best things you can do to help with that. Presenting yourself as a distinguished and polished professional in BOTH the spoken and written context is key.

In my experience, this is the best advice that can be given to work around age discrimination. I'm now 29 and was the IT and Office Manager for a doctor's office at 23. It can be tough being the youngest employee in the organization that makes all of the big decisions. I have always strived to treat everyone equally regardless of background and let them earn respect as I feel I have had to earn theirs. Now, I think that I will have much less of an issue since I will be 30 this year, but there are always those 50 and 60 year old employees that are too comfortable and not willing to accept change of an sort.

broli720

I'm 23 and can definitely relate, but pretty much all preconceived notions they have of me go out the door as soon as I open my mouth and chim in during a meeting. In my experience, diction and performing your job at a high level usually take care of these issues.

ptilsen

Lots of good advice here. At the end of the day, I haven't found my age to be a problem because I can earn professional respect. It also helps that at 24, I, too, look 35.

However, I should point out that it goes both ways. For every older professional who has taken issue with my age, there's another that couldn't get hired because of his age. For every middle-aged person who doesn't respect twentysomethings, there's a hiring manager that doesn't think anyone over 35 could possibly know anything about today's computers. The difference is that young people have to work harder for respect on the job; old people have to work harder just to get the job.

Also, I don't think it's just baby boomers. I lead a team of engineers ranging from 24-45, most of them not yet 30, when I was 23. I can tell you it bothered the younger ones just as much as the older ones, and just as much as the fiftysomethings I've worked with in other jobs. People are generally very resentful of leaders younger than they are. It's old-school mentality, but you'll see it in every age group.

Ahriakin

I understand the frustration but I'm sorry that post is pretty funny. First up age discrimination occurs in all directions, it's immediately evident in your own post. An unfortunate part of human nature but it's there in everyone, it just depends on how you compensate and actually deal with it that defines your real level of discrimination (hint: calling those older than you basically outdated jealous geezers helps make it clear where you stand on that one : Pot...Kettle...Black). Also the old theories you mention reading up on etc. were CREATED by that generation, they built the networks and protocols we are learning from nothing. You are coming into the industry at a time when it is easy to do so, you grew up with the internet and computers, study material and home resources are readily available aswell as IT focused higher education. The folks you are intent on denigrating did not, they made it for you from scratch. Now hopefully you will make it better in your own time and not have such a single mindedly arrogant and ageist attitude as you advance your own career.

For the records I'm not a 'baby boomer' but I'd never classify anyone that way either. I judge, and hire, based purely on talent and being younger or older than average has no bearing on it.

Akaricloud

You're definitely stereotyping that old IT age group for the purpose of writing about that subset, but for the most part I agree with what you've written here. I've had to face some of the exact same type of people and it's not necessarily easy at first.

What makes it worse for me is even though I'm 23 most people say I look about 18. This definitely makes trying to convince potential employers to let me manage their systems and/or people a bit more of a challenge.

rsutton

Completely agree with what Ahriakin said. Pot. Kettle. Black.

paul78

As the resident old geezer on TE, I would to remind all you kids that you will eventually get to my age.

nel

Yup, i certainly feel your pain and have experienced age discrimination many times - i am now 27 and are currently going through this again for the billionth time. For me, it gets boring, real quick.

The best way to deal with it is to ask and/or accept a worthy project/task and show them your talent and prove you can do the job. Unfortunately there are many companies who are stuck in the past imo and some managers simply do not want to take the risk of giving unproven people difficult tasks.

One of the most tragic things i see is many folk eager, willing and wanting to learn, only to be prevented by their age (regardless if its young or old). That enthusiasm and hope can drain real fast. Or at least it does for me.

I was recently turned down for a great role at a large player. You guessed it - the agency let slip it was my age.

W Stewart

I've got to agree with some people here. Your tone towards older people is pretty harsh and hypocritical. For the most part I've always been the youngest or at least one of the youngest at any IT jobs I've worked in but then I only just started my career about a year and a half ago. I don't feel like my age has prevented me from getting any opportunities. Most employers I've come across just want to know if I can do the job but then the highest level I've made it to career-wise is Jr Admin level. Maybe I'll start to feel the discrimination after I finish school.

kgb

Unless they specifically told you the reason you did not get a job is your age, you can't with certain say that is the reason. It's always easier to blame something/someone you have no control over (in this example, Your Age) versus maybe dealing with the reality that you were not the best candidate for the job.

There's a lot of companies that put value on documented experience. I see job postings all the time that want 10years+ experience. If you are 25 and are looking at jobs such as those, then I think it's safe to say you aren't the victim of age discrimination, but rather experience discrimination. We can argue all day long about whether or not you could still do that job, maybe you can. It doesn't change the fact that a company wants what a company wants. It's their money and as long as they aren't illegally discriminating then that's the way it is.

I definitely believe age discrimination happens. But, as already mentioned, it's on both ends. The world isn't out to keep all you young people down. Don't flatter yourselves.

pert

There was one true part in there. If you start at a job at level X and then have a drastic increase in your skills or knowledge, you will NEVER be compensated for it if you stay. That is the reality everywhere I dont think it has to due with age, its corporate america. I've had 3 roles in a row where I cam in as the least experienced. I took all of those jobs solely to gain experience, and after a year and a half at each I would grow to one of the most knowledgeable, but in every case there was no promotion or meaningful raise. Then i would end up leaving for a different job and get a 50% raise. Its hilarious to me, because had any of those companies even given me a promotion or 15-20% raise I would still be there.

forestgiant

The way I've dealt with any perceived age discrimination is the willingness to compensate by not judging people's intentions and showing modesty. No one is getting any younger and one day we'd be the olds we worked with today.

Actually it's helpful not to generalize and learn just what makes your colleagues tick; my bosses belong to an ethnicity traditionally known for anti-American sentiments, fought the US in past World Wars, tough-mean-hard headed, cheap, and perhaps several dozens other adjectives. I demonstrate measurable results in a timely matter and that always win them over. Just because you are a small team leader doesn't mean someone else won't leapfrog you and make you mop the floor they walked on tomorrow. Anyone's fortune could change in a flash so it's better to have friends than enemies, and especially if your friends are the so called baby boomers that run just about every major global company these days.

nosoup4u

I just turned 25 and the youngest coworker around here is 47. I used to get a lot of jokes when I first hired on because I couldn't go drinking with the guys and "needed a sippy cup" when we went to lunch. I just laughed it off and made jokes about them forgetting their dentures and such.

Worked related stuff comes down to they come to me for a lot of new technology related issues, and I go to them for our legacy programs, aside from that, they treat me as an equal colleague.

martaw

I definitely think that there can be age discrimination for younger people in the workplace. Sometimes I wonder that it partly could be how younger people carry themselves. I am not in my 20's, but I look like it and I also have a "youngness" to my personality. I like to have fun and say things in funny ways. That's all well and fine outside of work, but sometimes young people can just act too casual or have this kiddy bopper thing in how they talk and joke around. Maybe it's the slang. The walk or the attitude. Even if it is "subtle" or toned down, I think that *some* young people can act this way in the workplace and may not notice what they are doing or how they come across. Not saying anyone here is doing that, but it can happen.

lsud00d

I think ageism goes both ways and really comes down to personality more than anything...those who are close minded will persecute for any differences and it's not restricted to age.

I'm 27 now, started full time at 21 and was an hourly student technician at 19. I worked up through the ranks at the major university I worked at and even though I was always the youngest in meetings, giving presentations, leading training sessions, attending conferences (& accepting awards + presenting), evaluating vendors, participating in new hire committees, etc...I only experienced age discrimination from a few select people, and even then in retrospect it was probably a mis-read on their body language/personality on my part.

If you're good, you're good...if someone's a h8r, dust your shoulders off

zrockstar

kgb wrote: »

It's their money and as long as they aren't illegally discriminating then that's the way it is.

It's not illegal to discriminate someone for being "too young" as threshold for federal protection for age is 40. So unless your state has some other laws in place, an employer can straight tell a 25 year old that they aren't getting the job because they are too young and there is nothing that can be done about it.

ThePawofRizzo

This has been an interesting read.

Although I'm only in my early 40s, where I work I'm the oldest systems administrator. I think our youngest admin is about 30, and my director is about 34. I love the "tippy cup" comment, nosoup4u! I laugh with the admins I work with that they're "like the sons I'll never have" when they tell me I'm the "old man" of the group.

I don't have any "age" issues with my current boss, and wouldn't have an issue with a manager in their 20s due to age. My current director is extremely talented. He was our team lead when I started with the company a few years ago, and in his late 20s then, but obviously very technical, overall likeable. Where I've had issues with my director has been more along our differing personality styles, but not anything that as we learn about the other it isn't something that can't be overcome in the spirit of teamwork. As long as my manager shows they know what is what, is respectful, and seems to look out for my needs as a team member, I'm cool with them at any age.

kgb

zrockstar wrote: »

It's not illegal to discriminate someone for being "too young" as threshold for federal protection for age is 40. So unless your state has some other laws in place, an employer can straight tell a 25 year old that they aren't getting the job because they are too young and there is nothing that can be done about it.

Other side, an employer can straight tell a 39yr old they are too old and there's nothing that can be done about it. Like already mentioned, it's both ends.

I still stand by what I said though. Unless they specifically told the person, "you are too YOUNG" then suck it up and move on. Being told you are "not experienced enough" is not the same as "you are too young". I'm assuming here but I have a feeling most want to blame it on being too young, rather than just not experienced enough.

ptilsen

kgb wrote: »

Other side, an employer can straight tell a 39yr old they are too old and there's nothing that can be done about it. Like already mentioned, it's both ends.

An employer can also tell a person of any age they're not old enough, in almost every state. The law does not protect against discrimination against the young nearly to the extent it does for discrimination against the old. Additionally, this scenario is implausible in terms of hiring because the employer would typically have no way of knowing one's age prior to hiring. Smart employers know that even asking someone is foolish. A smart employer would also never tell someone under 40 that they are tool old, because that implies discrimination against people over 40.

Age discrimination for being too old for people below 40 is pretty much a non-issue. It might happen in fields like, say, modeling, which is inherently discriminatory against the effects of aging, but I doubt it really happens in any professional fields.

JDMurray

Age discrimination is per hiring manager. Some managers love the young kids just out of college full of ideas and energy and no family responsibilities. Some prefer the old timers with the wisdom-of-the-ages who trend more slowly and carefully. Still others prefer the age 30-50 mid-group because they are perceived as neither irresponsible loose cannons or lazy seniors who have mentally checked-out of the workforce.

If your are not in the sweet spot for a manager's ideal age then you find another manager.

paul78

nosoup4u wrote: »

I just laughed it off and made jokes about them forgetting their dentures and such.

yeah - I wish I had someone that would remind me to bring my dentures. I must be getting forgetful in my old-age.

Kidding aside, I am probably twice the age of many of you. JD's point was right on. A lot simply has to do with the hiring manager's needs and perception.

The reality is that biases exists at all levels and age is not the only factor. And people like to be around other people that share the same values, mores, and culture (and age group). If you work in a large enough office, ever notice that people tend to gravitate towards other people that are their own age, racial, professional, or socioeconomic background. Just look around the company cafeteria.