Cyber Warfare

jamesleecoleman

Hey there!!!

So I'm taking a class called Information Warfare & Security. The book that we're reading for the class is Inside Cyber Warfare: Mapping the Cyber Underworld: Jeffrey Carr: 9781449310042: Amazon.com: Books.

So I'll just get to it. I don't see any type of warfare going on. I've read about people bringing down web servers with DDoS attacks and SQL injections. Then countries deny that they did this or did that and that they don't have anyone doing anything. While certain groups are taking responsibility for certain things.

Maybe I'm a little lost in all of this. I did try to find a few things but I'm not getting anything similar to an Abrams tank destroying a power grid.

chaser7783

As lsud00d said Stuxnet, Flame, and Duqu are some. When states, or state sponsored groups attack a country's infrastructure, natural gas, oil, electric, water, financial system it is considered an "act of cyberwarefare". Think about Scada systems, and how they operate our infrastructure. These system are dated and very vulnerable to attackes(Many used default passwords to remote in), and has been a main reason some many people are rushing to secure them. A while ago two water pump for water utility companies were attacked. Link: Apparent cyberattack destroys pump at Ill. water utility - Computerworld

Also dont forget Cyberattacks during the 2008 South Ossetia war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

tpatt100

China is in the news a lot, the threat from them seems to be attempts to steal trade secrets from companies here in the US.

lsud00d

SCADA's and foreverdays will be the proverbial Abrams'ing a power grid soon enough...when is the question!

the_hutch

My air traffic control buddy is always giving me a hard time about all the "dangerous" work I do in the Air Force on the "cyber battlefield"....lol
I think people object to the phrase cyber warfare frequently because of its lack of similarities to traditional warfare. However, there are definitely ways of securing a strategic advantage in a lot of conflicts by employing different "cyber" tactics.

the_Grinch

I think the term information warfare is a better one to be used. Cyber warfare sounds scary and is great for soundbites/selling books, but information warfare (in my opinion) sums it up much better. I say this because there are a lot of various parts to the entire make up and some are not computer related in the least. A few of the Army units have members that are trained in PsyOps, HUMINT, Intelligence Analysis, and even Military Police. They would not be considered "cyber" warriors, but could be "information" warriors. That's my two cents anyway...

tpatt100

I kinda like "Tactical Reconnaissance Over Networks".

geek4god

lsud00d wrote: »

SCADA's and foreverdays will be the proverbial Abrams'ing a power grid soon enough...when is the question!

It is just like the Cold War. It is a term in popular use, Cyberwar is the same. Having said that read History of Warfare and you will see war and its definition are cultural. We have a tendency to think of war as tanks blowing stuff up. Our cultural bias predisposes us to that mindset. It has bit us in the ass on several occasion as we have a tendency to not view 4G warfare as "real war". We rock at 3G (think WWII) but are not so great at 4G (non-tradition warfare)..

Stuxnet is a great example of a weapon that did not kill anyone. In fact all it really did was delay and break some equipment, but Iran also killed of numerous scientist who they suspected of helping or not doing enough. Then Israel offed the lead scientist Iran put in charge of fixing the Stuxnet infection!! All of this setting their nuke program back!

So no you are no going to see a virus blow up city! Well probably not, but there is still some interesting stuff out there.. Ohh and if you want to read about trains derailing, power grids going dark, refineries blowing up and in general kinetic damage caused by computers. Read Clrake's Cyber War ...

wes allen

I kinda think much of the cyberwar stuff is a great example of asymmetrical war, which is you posted, we (the US/west) has not been very good at, though we learned much the last decade. This is a great book on the subject, and I believe many future "hacker" types will be people that buy a cheap laptop, rather then an AK.

The Accidental Guerrilla: Fighting Small Wars in the Midst of a Big One: David Kilcullen: 9780199754090: Amazon.com: Books

geek4god

wes allen wrote: »

I kinda think much of the cyberwar stuff is a great example of asymmetrical war, which is you posted, we (the US/west) has not been very good at, though we learned much the last decade. This is a great book on the subject, and I believe many future "hacker" types will be people that buy a cheap laptop, rather then an AK.

The Accidental Guerrilla: Fighting Small Wars in the Midst of a Big One: David Kilcullen: 9780199754090: Amazon.com: Books

Asymmetrical warfare is a great example.. Another good book on that topic is The Sling and the Stone.. Pretty much anything out there on none tradition/4G/Asymmetrical warfare would be good.. There is a ton of info, nations have learned that we can not be beat in 3G (traditional warfare) and they have also learned that we can be beat with non tradition warfare. Mainly because as a democracy we lack the long term political will to win non traditional wars.

Great topic and as geeks we are kind of late to this debate, but there is an amazing amount of brilliant people out there talking about the changes we are seeing in conflict!

Cry havoc and let slip the geeks of war!!!

geek4god

The guy that writes this is an INFOSEC dude and it just posted today.. Which I thought was appropriate for the conversation here..

The Stand Alone Complex, Manifesto’s, and Asymmetric Warfare Online

YFZblu

geek4god wrote: »

So no you are no going to see a virus blow up city! Well probably not

I would like to note here - Compromise leading to unintended launch/detonation of weaponry is not out of the realm of possibility...

phoeneous

Would you like to play a game?

eansdad

Global Thermal Nuclear War FTW

Seriously, as warfare turns more and more technology based (think drones, automated launce systems ...etc) then so comes the threat of them falling in the other sides hands. Imagine a fleet of drone sent out being hacked and turned against us or a missle launch system not releasing its clamps or worse having it's target redirected to a friendly. Cyberwarfare has the potiential to do more damage. Bombing Wall St sure it will disrupt the economey for awhile but hack Wall St and erase the data ... Not so easy to recover.

Sledge.

phoeneous wrote: »

Would you like to play a game?

+10,000,000 internets to you, sir. Well played.

Regards,

Sledge

packetmon

A strange game...

I think that what we are seeing lately are the off the bow type warning shots to see what happens next.

phoeneous

Sledge. wrote: »

+10,000,000 internets to you, sir. Well played.

Regards,

Sledge

Reps please

Sledge.

Done, and done!

Regards,

Sledge

tpatt100

Shutdown Facebook and Twitter for a week and the rioting in the streets will shutdown businesses lol

geek4god

So was reading tonight about a new medal the DoD is comming out with and found this interesting.

The Distinguished Warfare Medal will be awarded to pilots of unmanned aircraft, offensive cyber war experts or others who are directly involved in combat operations but who are not physically in theater and facing the physical risks that warfare historically entails.

tpatt100

A medal for the ultimate online camper lol

"Quit camping noob"

the_Grinch

LOL the article said some members of the arm forces were joking that soldiers would get Purple Hearts for simulator kills. I think the most telling part of the medal is the fact that it is above a Bronze Star. Seems some cyber warriors are doing some big things if they are ranking that medal as such. Though that might be more due to the drone pilots.

tpatt100

The Bronze Star has gotten awarded a bit too much for things not related to direct combat that the "V" device is what makes the "Bronze Star" more like it's traditional award in the past.

I know a few Bronze Star medal owners and none of them was awarded the medal for being in combat.

Roguetadhg

This is sort of related:
A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked - Businessweek

It's a fairly long article and a very interesting read.

lsud00d

Great article...I believe one of the most important excerpts to be

Zhang’s a cog in a much larger machine

jamesleecoleman

Thanks everyone! I'm starting to get a better view of Cyber/Information Warfare. There were a few things that I forgot to write in my initial post but this has opened my eyes a little more to whats going on.

I had read an article that the Persian scientists were being fired because of the whole stuxnet thing. It did give me a laugh but I didn't know they were being killed over it.

Roguetadhg

I think we all are aware that the internet is no longer it's own separate entity. What happens on the internet effects the real world. Especially now more than 10 years ago. Just because there's no bullets flying doesn't mean the impact will be anything less than devastating.

dmoore44

One of the pertinent ideas that I think gets overlooked is how the whole cyber initiative ties in with not just information warfare, but also electronic warfare. Personally, I tend to view cyber as the unification of information warfare, electronic warfare, and the interconnected computing environments (i.e. WWW/GIG/whatever) in to a coherent platform/environment/theater for propagating aggressive intent (though there are defensive aspects to all of the aforementioned as well...)

If you're at a "WTF???" moment, I'll elaborate a little...

Generally speaking, information warfare tends to take on a focus of using information to gain an advantage over an adversary. Actors participating in IW generally attempt to keep their operations and capabilities secret while attempting to gain as much knowledge about adversarial operations and capabilities as possible.

Electronic warfare is a whole different beast. In EW, you're using the electromagnetic spectrum to perpetrate an attack on an adversarial asset. The objective of EW is to control access to the EM spectrum (jamming and shielding), dececeive (chaff/flares), and potentially destroy (DEW).

Cyber tends to focus much more on computing environments (networks, systems, etc...) and really revolves around the militarization of hackers... Or I guess it could be the other way around - the hackerization of the military. Either way, there's a large focus on what sort of attack can be perpetrated against adversarial computing environments (i.e. denial of use - EW, or espionage - IW) and how those target computing environments might interact with real world capabilities (i.e. can something be physically impaired/destroyed a'la Stuxnet).

chaser7783

currently the talk ShmooCon 2013 - February 15-17 - Speakers on Shmoocon live stream (ShmooCon 2013 - February 15-17 - News) is covering alot of this info if any of you can catch it.

chaser7783

Attacking scada Wireless Systems for Fun and Profit- and Fixing(ShmooCon 2013 - February 15-17 - Speakers) is playing on the Belay It live stream now.

wes allen

How soon til the lines between the shooting and the cyber part of war become even more blurred? Drone attacks on hackers? Assassinations of Malware analysts that get a little too close? Just think, if the right people in the US feel you are a threat to national security, you can be targeted, us citizen or not. SCADA hacker with ties to al qaeda, start watching your back!

Also, executives, bank managers, etc have been targets of kidnapping, so in a wired world, does the network admin become a target also?

It is very much exaggerated and not currently all that realistic, but the new Bond movie Skyfall shows the two getting mixed up. Today's fiction, tomorrow reality?