Salary expectations and history

lordy

Dear all,

after giving a technical presentation to a company today I received an email from their Director of Human Resources. It includes two things that I would like to have your opinion on:

(The VP) has asked me to reach out to you to gain some information on your salary expectations if we are to present you with an offer.

Right now I have two numbers in my mind. One that is the minimum for me to sign and one that would make the offer interesting. Of course I don't want to answer with the minimum. Should I use the number that would make me go "yeah!" or should I even put something on top to be able to negotiate later on? The company is based in the US so I have no idea how to deal with them on this topic.

Also, if you would be so kind to provide your salary history to me.

I can see where this is coming from. They want to know how much I make now. Does this also mean that they want to know how much I made in my previous jobs? Technically my employment contracts do not allow me to reveal my salary. Additionally, this role is a whole different ballgame than the one I am currently in (Tech vs. Sales). What should I tell them?

I would appreciate your input

GAngel

Give them a range starting from the lowest you would take. If they're seriously interested the money won't make the difference.

While I wouldn't give them exact numbers I'd give them the range and if you're asking for significantly more explain the certs etc you've done in the meantime and future plans for the next 12 mths that justify it.

ltj8765

Also include in your salary history any additional compensation from your employer. This could be how much they contribute to your health insurance, etc. Basically, it is all monies paid to you as well as any other costs that are paid by your employer for your employment. For example, an employee is paid 5000 per month. In addition to that 5000, they company also pays health insurance of 1000 per month, thus total compensation in current position can be stated as 6000 per month.

Aldur

The whole "salary history" question is totally BS imo. This is simply an excuse for your potential employer to low ball you. Say that the avg salary for the job your looking into is 100k, if you're only currently making 50k, the potential employer might only offer you 60k, because to them it's a 20% increase in salary from your current salary... So, my advice would to be very careful in the information you reveal for that question.

pinkydapimp

Reply with your accurate salary history. THey are going to find it out anyway when they talk to your former employer and if you lie it can get your offer revoked. Organizations usually understand what you are worth and will offer in that range. THen you have the ability to negotiate. They dont always base it on your salary history, however, you need to be reasonable. If your requesting a 40% increase in salary you better be able to back it up accordingly.

My suggestion would be to send the salary history and then say regarding the salary expectations, most important to you is that you find a great company and role, and that you will be looking for a competitive salary, but are open to negotiation with regard to it. Very rarely will they force you to give a number and if they do, give them your high number.

When(IF) they give you an offer, if you think its low, counter and tell them why.

This works well because you arent the first to put a number out there.

instant000

The truth of the matter is that you should give the highest number.

If they go too low, then refuse to negotiate.

If they want you, they'll pay for it.

Besides, truth be told, if they pay you too little, you'd end up going elsewhere.

As you already indicated, past employers do not want you revealing the salary information. If they need your salary history to negotiate, they just want to use that to give you a low offer. It's a trap. It's not about making more than you made before. It's about making what you're worth.

There is no need to be wasting time with salary history. Do you know what the job entails? You might want to find out that information, before you give out a rate.

You may think that 90K would be good, but once you realize the job is full of 80 hour work weeks, maybe you'd wish you'd asked for 150K instead. (These are just numbers I'm throwing out there.)

See what I mean?

Hope this helps.

instant000

As you can see, there are multiple takes on this topic.

One says give the history.
One says let them go first.
Some say to give your number.

Just be careful.

Making 80K for a 40 hour week is a lot different than 80K for an 80 hour week.

paul78

@lordy - Are salary negotiations in Germany similar as in the US? I always thought that German labour law was very protective of employees so I assumed that it's work culture must be quite different. Anyways, congratulations on the pending job offer, I'm glad to read that your presentation meeting went well. Must have been the pants

phalx

Expectations: I would give the lowest you would take as your low range and what you want as the upper, as someone above said. Salary history: Typically former employers will only give the dates you worked for that company. They will probably NOT find out your previously salary. Although with enough digging it is possible, but you have to ask yourself if they would bother doing that. The only reason is to low-ball you with their offer. Deflect the question, it is as simple as that. Something like "I am not entitled to disclose my current/past salary because of NDA (or whatever), but I'm sure I can bring enough value to your organization to account for the salary range I am requesting."

Iristheangel

I wouldn't give them a range. A range is like saying "You can pay me the lowest number I give you" unless you just happen to find a nice boss that's willing to pay you a little more and that's a rarity. Take the number you REALLY want (not the lowest) and add $5-10K on that. If they bulk or start to dismiss you, say you're willing to negotiate on that price depending on what other benefits they are able to offer. It's a lot easier to negotiate down than it is to negotiate up.

Polynomial

Iristheangel wrote: »

I wouldn't give them a range. A range is like saying "You can pay me the lowest number I give you" unless you just happen to find a nice boss that's willing to pay you a little more and that's a rarity. Take the number you REALLY want (not the lowest) and add $5-10K on that. If they bulk or start to dismiss you, say you're willing to negotiate on that price depending on what other benefits they are able to offer. It's a lot easier to negotiate down than it is to negotiate up.

I like this approach. +1.

networker050184

The whole 'lowball' thing usually can only happen in very small organizations. Most companies are going to have pay ranges/bands set for all positions by HR policy. So if you make 30K and the position is in a 80k-120k salary band they can't offer you less just because you were making less before.

Would you really want to work for a company that you have to hide and play games with to get a decent salary anyway? Sounds like a good sign you should go work elsewhere to me.

Bloogen

If they can't lowball you based on your pervious salary there is no reason for them to know your past salary. I see no advantages for you to ever disclose past salary, especially if it was not in the range of what you are looking for now.

networker050184

What is the point of hiding it though? It's not like they can't find out in a background check. In the hiring processes I've been involved in it's asked by some HR requirement and the people that actually make the decision pay no mind to it at all.

Architect192

That's a really odd question for them to ask. First of all, unless they are familiar with the German market and local cost of living, telling them you make 100K EU wont mean a thing to them. Same for you, if you're accepting a job in the US, make sure you set your expectations based on the local market. I have a coworker who want to move to Europe and is facing the same kind of challenge...

Bloogen

How would a background check show your past salary unless you work in the public sector? Maybe there's a chance it could be on your credit report. I rather not disclose past salary as it almost always does no good but it can easily harm you. If you are making 40k and they are prepared to offer from 50-65k, be ready to be on the low end of that offer. In their minds they think, he gets a around a 10k raise and we come in under budget. Everyone wins, or not quite.

networker050184

That's a crappy company if they do that and why would you want to work there? We try to get everyone a fair salary as high as we can. Why would you want to pay someone the minimum just so they can jump ship? Don't you think they want their employees happy? I don't think most companies are as evil as people make them out to be. There are hard HR requirments that must be met, but besides that managers aren't out there trying to pay as little as possible. I think it's mostly paranoia.

Bloogen

It's not paranoia it's simply negotiation. A lot of people have weak negotiation skills and often undervalue themselves. I have only ever worked for companies where I have high regard for the management and the people I work with. On the same note the goal when hiring is not to pay as much as the business can possibly afford. There are many people who coming from 40k, disclose this number and then jump all over the 50k offer not even realizing they lost a potential 15k in annual salary. The point about the act of disclosing salary is why would you do it and why would they even ask? I can't think of any reason that would be in your benefit.

networker050184

The hiring processes I've been involved in, yes, we do try to get the person as much money as possible. As I said though HR already has a number that we can pay. As long as you meet the requirments for the position we can pay you that.

Why ask? I have no clue really, it's some HR requirment. The only time I look at it is to say damn this guy makes $200k he's not going to want our $100k job don't bother setting up an interview. If someone makes $50k I'm like hell yeah this is a good step up for them and they will be interested. Regardless of what they were making before as long as they meet the job requirements they must be paid at the level set by HR. HR does some kind of yearly study that says person with X job should make between X and Y. We can't hire someone for that job and pay them less. It's not possible. That's how it's been at every company that I have been involed in the process. Not that I have worked at every company out there, but most HR departments operate similar as far as I can tell.

And just to add, that is only for people that apply directly to the company. They have to fill it out on the application. If you are going through a recruiter we don't know your previous salary until we are ready to make an offer and you have to fill out that application as simply a formality. At that point we want you for the job no matter what you got paid before.

undomiel

networker050184 wrote: »

The only time I look at it is to say damn this guy makes $200k he's not going to want our $100k job don't bother setting up an interview. If someone makes $50k I'm like hell yeah this is a good step up for them and they will be interested.

Exactly why you should not disclose your current salary. In the latter case it makes no difference for the employer to know your salary and in the former case it can be a negative. What if someone is willing to take a pay cut for the right job? Not everything is about the money. For myself I refuse to state my current salary. If this is a deal breaker for the company then I'm perfectly fine to move on to the next opportunity. I'm happy to state what range I'm looking for and that seems to be good enough for most employers so far. It is not the end of the world to turn down a job or to be turned down by an employer.

pert

Just say your salary is private. If they balk at you... so what? Its a good thing. You know immediately it wasnt going to work out. Just remember, the worst case scenario isn't you getting turned down. The worst case is taking a job and it turning out to be a lemon.

networker050184

undomiel wrote: »

Exactly why you should not disclose your current salary. In the latter case it makes no difference for the employer to know your salary and in the former case it can be a negative. What if someone is willing to take a pay cut for the right job? Not everything is about the money. For myself I refuse to state my current salary. If this is a deal breaker for the company then I'm perfectly fine to move on to the next opportunity. I'm happy to state what range I'm looking for and that seems to be good enough for most employers so far. It is not the end of the world to turn down a job or to be turned down by an employer.

That is a corner case, but the vast majority of people are looking to move up or at least lateral in their career. Do you often go looking for jobs that pay half of what you are making? I suppose if I were maybe I'd feel a bit different, but as I said that's a complete corner case and definitely not the norm.

To be clear I'm not trying to tell anyone they won't be hired if they don't disclose. I'm just trying to bring some perspective from the other side. I used to think very similar but after being on the other side of things for a bit I see a lot of the 'games' are pretty pointless.

atorven

Aldur wrote: »

The whole "salary history" question is totally BS imo. This is simply an excuse for your potential employer to low ball you. Say that the avg salary for the job your looking into is 100k, if you're only currently making 50k, the potential employer might only offer you 60k, because to them it's a 20% increase in salary from your current salary... So, my advice would to be very careful in the information you reveal for that question.

In such a situation they know it's difficult for the person to walk away from such an increase, but this doesn't seem like good business to me because the candidate will only use you as a stepping stone.

Let's say that as a candidate you were making 40K and you somehow discovered that the budgeted range was 70-100K but they offered you 55, how do you manoeuvre that? It's still a 15K increase for you, which is significant; do you just accept and put in the time to get skill/experience? Also, assume that your current skill set doesn't tick all their boxes, something like 2/3 to you.

GoodBishop

When you put your salary range, I would factor in all the benefits as well.

Tell them you make xxx (which is a total combination of salary, benefits, perks, tuition reimbursement, etc).

ltj8765

lordy, there have been a lot of messages to this thread giving advice on how to handle this with some saying give salary history and some saying not, etc. I am not sure how things work in Germany and how keen this company is on hiring you, but you may first want to give them a response with your salary expectations and without your salary history. Basically, one could approach it like this:

1. Find out what the mean (average) salary is for the position you are looking at. Once you get that average salary number, add on at least 15% to it. Then add in any extra things you expect such as retirement contributions, education reimbursement and so on.
2. Type up a polite response to the HR rep answering the questions on salary but state it as a "Compensation Package" since you are looking at more then just salary.

You could possibly word everything like this:

---

Dear NAME,

Thank you for considering me for the Position Name in COMPANY. As requested, I am providing the following details on my expectations for a compensation package:

Yearly Salary: Salary Amount You Want, e.g., 85,000
Health Coverage: Pay for Health Care Plan
Education: Reimburse for continuing education credits towards certifications
Retirement Contributions: e.g., 10% of monthly salary, added to salary into a retirement account.

Per your request for salary history, my current and past compensation are at a competitive rate to current industry standards for my position.

Thank you again for this opportunity as a Position Name at COMPANY and I look forward to discussing with you in more detail any questions or comments you have on the above compensation package.

Kind Regards

---

The above was a quick thing I typed up and you can add a lot to something like it to give a little more to the letter. The idea I am trying to convey is that it is a negotiation and you may not really need to disclose what your compensation numbers are right off. Try going into with a comment such as above? Like the old saying...don't lay all your cards on the table right away.

By the way, The above is what I did, and the company I work for came back and lowered the salary offer (from my salary request slightly) and I still ended up with a 20K raise per year, as well as full paid medical (no longer any out of pocket) an additional 10 percent of income each month into a retirement account without it being taken out of my check or me matching the contribution.

lordy

Thank you for all the replies!

Here is what I did:
- I provided a precise number (no range) in EUR as I will remain located in Germany
- I did not provide any current or past salary information

I chose the precise number over the range because to me a range makes you look indecisive. A precise number sends a clear message about your own skills and worth.

I chose not to provide any other salary information for two reasons. Number one is that my salary information (according to the contract) is confidential. Number two is that the two jobs are not really comparable (100% tech vs. 50/50 tech+sales) so I feel that disclosing my salary would not only breach my contract but also provide no meaningful information.

Again, thanks everybody for your feedback.

RouteMyPacket

lordy wrote: »

Thank you for all the replies!

Here is what I did:
- I provided a precise number (no range) in EUR as I will remain located in Germany
- I did not provide any current or past salary information

I chose the precise number over the range because to me a range makes you look indecisive. A precise number sends a clear message about your own skills and worth.

I chose not to provide any other salary information for two reasons. Number one is that my salary information (according to the contract) is confidential. Number two is that the two jobs are not really comparable (100% tech vs. 50/50 tech+sales) so I feel that disclosing my salary would not only breach my contract but also provide no meaningful information.

Again, thanks everybody for your feedback.

Very good, good decision not giving a range. It makes no sense to do so as someone mentioned before. I hope it works out for you. Congrats!

lordy

After finishing the interviews earlier today the HR director came back to me.

He has asked me if I could now send over my salary history. However, I will have to decline his request politely. According to my contracts salary is confidential and I don't think it's any of their business. I don't see why they would need this information other than keeping my offer low.

Everyone

"I prefer not to disclose my salary history and would like any offers to be made based on the value I have to bring to the organization."

That line has always worked out well for me.

hyperSCSI

I don't agree with giving them a number first because it never works out for the first person who talks, but I hope for the best for you.

As for the people who were saying to give a range of the lowest you would take to the highest that you want, *sigh*.