Certification For Sport

docrice

I do agree that security certs don't prove too much, myself being a prime example (my list of paper accomplishments are akin to flairs on a restaurant uniform, I guess). Not sure if I somehow implied otherwise in my post.

jmritenour

This is something I've been thinking about recently. I'm shooting for a VCDX defense in 2015, and after that, I believe I'm done with certs. I'm doing a few for "fun" along the way like RHCSA/RHCE, and if my employer wants me to (and pays for) get any others, I'll go after them, but I think I've ridden the cert train as far as it will take me at this point.

Education is a whole other ball of wax. Once I've done VCDX, I might start on a Masters degree.

N2IT

@ JM

You have quite the portfolio of certifications, I think you make some valid points

@ Paul

I agree but as senior members we should want to do our best to help the younger folks out.

Qord

Excellent discussion topic!!

For me, at this current point in my life, enough is enough. Although the only thing left standing here is my CCNA, I just don't feel motivated to take it any further, which kinda sucks. I feel like I worked my butt off to get that cert, and here I am giving honest consideration to allowing it to expire. But the truth is that there are other things that have priority to me right now. I just bought a house a few months ago that has high heating costs (enter job #2) and needs work, and I value my time with the family. I wish things were a little different, but my current attitude puts recertification on the backburner, at least for now. There's just not enough there to motivate me to keep up anymore. I've got a JOAT job I love and management that wants results, not acronyms, which allows me learn a lot without the pressure of having to master anything. Maybe in the future my attitude will change, but for now I just want knowledge, not test results.

charlemagne

paul78 wrote: »

@docrice - I was a little surprised by your post. I thought it was you that agrred a while back that certifications tend not to hold much value in security space. I dont usually run into security professionals that use thwir certifications as evidence of accomplishments. I am guessing that you probably have the skills to pick the posers from the real deal.

@nt2it - I hear what you are saying about Comptia but if someone is just starting one in their career, I do appreprite the effort.

@charlemagne and @op - great conversation. I hope to choose to share some of your thoughts further in the public forum.

It is a great question to reflect upon. I am awaiting a response from "LarryDaMan" to begin a disscussion, via PM per his request, so I can only wait and share my ideas with others. If anyone requests private messages, then I think it appropriate to keep all info private (and will) unless the other person specifically asks and agrees to quote me (and vice versa). I respect privacy. Yet, he has not responded via PM. I'm sure, though, he will as he brought forth a really good question.
Generally speaking, I have nothing to prove or have any desire to convince anyone of anything. I think it is fair to ask a question (always remaining civil) and regarding his statement about "capitalistic" entities, there is no logical connection. This word is thrown around and used out of context and on this point, one should clarify. An economic model/system has little connection with, say, the Net+ certification or any other. My other statement about "free will" is quite clear, I think, in that we all have a choice. I see often in posts, in the media, in many areas statements made that are based on nothing more than emotion and it isn't too much to ask of anyone (especially regarding the original question) to request evidence to support a statement which, in this case, is both made and used as a conclusion without any rational support.
If one opened a book on, say, cloud certification and the first sentence was "All cloud certifications are no good," I suppose the reader would want to know what specifically the author used to form this conclusion. You get the point.
Yet, I have a completely different background than (I think) almost everyone that posts. Anyway, in my opinion (note: I clearly stated it's my opinion and not a fact or truth), if you want a cert and it helps you in any manner even if it's just a feeling of "job well done," then I see no reason not to take a particular exam.
Hey, I'm just middle-aged guy that wants what we all want deep down: A decent job with some sense of security, respect, and to come home and enjoy life. Eh, to each their own. "Larry," please (private or publicly) clarify your statement about "captialistic" entities. I will be happy to clarify anything. Or, just write me off as some silly person.

dave330i

Qord wrote: »

I've got a JOAT job I love and management that wants results, not acronyms, which allows me learn a lot without the pressure of having to master anything. Maybe in the future my attitude will change, but for now I just want knowledge, not test results.

Playing devil's advocate.

How do you know what you're learning is correct? Perhaps management doesn't want acronyms because they can pay you below market value?

rockyfortune

Good stuff guys..At those crossroads now in my career. I'm with a non-profit who basically says, ''if you want education, you pay for it.'' so i pay for the books..the study guides and start my training. I can relate to the pressures of ''life'' getting in the way too--i often wonder how much alphabet soup actually does help getting your foot in the door with an interview. I would think taking these certs is a way to validate your knowledge about something..not only to one's manager or boss..but to yourself. Personal validation, to me, is probably the biggest reason why.

Qord

dave330i wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate.

How do you know what you're learning is correct? Perhaps management doesn't want acronyms because they can pay you below market value?

Wonderful! I guess, to a certain extent, I don't know 100% if it's correct. However, most of the time my learning is project based and individual, so I do a lot of research into things and ask a lot of questions (online and in person) before anything I do actually goes into production. That being said, I assume most of what I learn is correct. As far as the pay goes....I work for a non-profit community college, so I'm already paid below market value. And this works fine for me at this point in my life. I honestly love my job and the people I work with an around, and I look forward to going into the office everyday. More money would be great, but there's more important things to me.

You see, I'm still very new to the realm of professional IT and have no clue what I want to do when (if) I grow up. Having a job I love is awesome, and being able to touch and work with everything we have in house is like icing on the cake. I'm gaining a huge amount of invaluable information that can only help me in my professional future. I look at this job not only as a job, but a chance to learn as much as possible.

meadIT

jmritenour wrote: »

This is something I've been thinking about recently. I'm shooting for a VCDX defense in 2015, and after that, I believe I'm done with certs.

It's definitely a weird experience after passing a high level cert. I've been working towards the VCDX over the past 2-3 years and never really looked beyond. Once I received the "Congratulations" email I was ecstatic, but after a couple of days I was thinking "What now?"

I don't have anything definite, taking a cert break for a while (until v6 is announced), then will decide if I want to branch out through the other VMware tracks (DT and Cloud) or go the CCNP route. CCNP-DC interests me, but that means redoing the CCNA level DC certs to get started.

dave330i

meadIT wrote: »

I don't have anything definite, taking a cert break for a while (until v6 is announced), then will decide if I want to branch out through the other VMware tracks (DT and Cloud) or go the CCNP route. CCNP-DC interests me, but that means redoing the CCNA level DC certs to get started.

I'll race you to see who collects all 3 VCDX first.

@Qord, Quality of life is extremely important. If what you're currently doing makes you happy, great. I would advise to plan out some long term goals, then figure out the paths to get there.

LarryDaMan

charlemagne wrote: »

"Larry," please (private or publicly) clarify your statement about "capitalistic" entities. I will be happy to clarify anything. Or, just write me off as some silly person.

You're not silly, and the intention of my PM comment was only not to bore others if this turned into a tit-for-tat type conversation. It is not necessary to debate that most certifying organizations are wildly successful in our capitalistic economy while employing capitalistic principles (individual rights, supply/demand, free markets) They are doing this and they have every legal right to do so.

The opinion piece (with hyperbole added) is the statement that they are money grubbing. I don't think it is necessary or always possible to back-up opinion with fact. A little girl on the street corner can sell $10 cups of lemonade to dehydrated passersby with an annual sugar maintenance charge of $5 and highly recommended lemon squeezing training for $20. Her materials and time were about $3 dollars total. Technically, no one has to buy this, we can tell her to kick rocks. However, because there may be nothing else to drink and because staying hydrated is necessary to live, people buy and the little girl scores a 700% profit.

If specific certifications are an entry barrier or a necessity to your career, you can only go one place to get that specific certification. Is it a choice? Maybe. However, it could also be a difficult choice to not take these certifications and switch career fields.

So the little girl could sell lemonade for $1 per glass and make a nice profit margin and CompTIA (for example) could charge $100 for entry level certifications and make a nice profit, but they don't and they don't have to, so in my opinion only, they are money grubbing. As someone who gets 20 plus marketing e-mails per day from certifying organizations and their affiliated training organizations, I stand by this, and I think it discourages younger aspiring professionals with less means from entering the field.

charlemagne

LarryDaMan wrote: »

You're not silly, and the intention of my PM comment was only not to bore others if this turned into a tit-for-tat type conversation. It is not necessary to debate that most certifying organizations are wildly successful in our capitalistic economy while employing capitalistic principles (individual rights, supply/demand, free markets) They are doing this and they have every legal right to do so.

The opinion piece (with hyperbole added) is the statement that they are money grubbing. I don't think it is necessary or always possible to back-up opinion with fact. A little girl on the street corner can sell $10 cups of lemonade to dehydrated passersby with an annual sugar maintenance charge of $5 and highly recommended lemon squeezing training for $20. Her materials and time were about $3 dollars total. Technically, no one has to buy this, we can tell her to kick rocks. However, because there may be nothing else to drink and because staying hydrated is necessary to live, people buy and the little girl scores a 700% profit.

If specific certifications are an entry barrier or a necessity to your career, you can only go one place to get that specific certification. Is it a choice? Maybe. However, it could also be a difficult choice to not take these certifications and switch career fields.

So the little girl could sell lemonade for $1 per glass and make a nice profit margin and CompTIA (for example) could charge $100 for entry level certifications and make a nice profit, but they don't and they don't have to, so in my opinion only, they are money grubbing. As someone who gets 20 plus marketing e-mails per day from certifying organizations and their affiliated training organizations, I stand by this, and I think it discourages younger aspiring professionals with less means from entering the field.

I truly appreciate your kind response. This is a good, civil, exchange of ideas. I see your point regarding some certs being barriers. I, for example, cannot take the PMP due to PMI's rules pertaining to project management experience and despite all the advanced degrees, teaching, writing, etc., it simply is not what they define as project mgt. I do not agree but I have no control over it in that I cannot change their rules. Thus, I can either accept it and explore other options (CAPM since I already have Project+) or be upset with PMI. For me, being upset with the "system" is not going to change it. It will only cause me personal grief over that which I can't change.
Regarding barriers, one must pass a variety of exams and obtain a license (plus, just to apply take the MCAT) to be a physician. Didn't used to be that way. Yet, it is and some don't get in to med school due to the MCAT exam. Is this "bad?" Maybe not the best analogy but it just popped into my mind since my family is inundated with physicians.
I respect your view. I think I understand your point of view. I think a bit differently in that society places barriers on each of us and we accept them. One must obtain a driver's license to legally drive. Barrier? By definition but in this case most simply do what one has to do. Take a test and get a license to drive (and pay a fee). You can, going back to medicine, obtain a license to practice and the AMA along with state governments control who can or cannot obtain a license. Some fail. Some don't. But, should the concept of a medical license be dropped just to open the door for some that disagree?
My point is: If you must have a specific cert and only one entity issues this, then you have to choose whether to take it and pay the fee and reap the benefits later, or refuse (which is fine) and blame the "system" of being unfair. I say, do what you must do to obtain your goal. "Fairness" has, I think, less to do with it. As Mark Twain said, the world "owes" us nothing...since it was here first.
Regarding fees for exams/certs. It seems your point is that the amount charged is unfair, unethical, immoral...you choose the adjective. What, I ask, would you say they do? Charge nothing and allow anyone to take their exam? What would the implications be? OK...lower the fees or prereqs. Then what?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you have issues with their profit margin. Yes? No? I interpret (correct me if I'm wrong) your remarks about capitalism as, again, you have particular unsaid assumptions about capitalism that form an aspect of your underlying premise. If you disagree with capitalism that is fine. I just don't see the link between an economic model and exam fees since one can travel to many nations that are not a free-market system and still see barriers, unfair "fees," and who is to blame? What is your answer?
Capitalism isn't what creates the fee structure for CompTIA. If you have issues with those that make huge profits, then what is your answer? Allow government to control the price of an exam? If so, then what is next? History shows us many examples of "what next."
Lastly, critical thinking is amongst the key skills in the "information age." It applies to all disciplines and areas of life. In the context of your original statement, I didn't ask for "proof." Read my previous remarks. I said one should back an assertion such as this up with logical premises to form a sound conclusion. This has nothing to do with being "correct" since I could be completely wrong in a certain argument but still use logical premises to support my claim/conclusion. You learn this in freshman logic courses. It's not meant to say "you have to 'prove' everything with scientific certainty." Not at all! To ask for "evidence" is not meant to be in manner of applying the scientific method to use logic to support a conclusion.

You know this as I believe you are an educated, intelligent person.

darkerz

100% sure it's mental, but my reason for pursuing certifications is that it focuses my attention and time into being productive and pro-active for my career.

It's like getting out of school, I promise you the drive will stop if that is your fix of candy to progress.

With certifications along with being a life long learner and avid technologist, it's helped me tremendously. I still review my Windows XP and 7 certification books weekly, look over my notes, fire up my labs and try out new things, read technet, etc.

I don't work with Windows one bit. Instead, I saved my company 50,000 dollars in hiring a very part time consultant to be a PM for our Windows 7 deploy. Having done it in my past and kept up with it, it only took a few days to make a good image fit with compliance, and now infosec and server peeps are verifying it through and through.

Speaking "their language" helps making defending the Network fantastic, too.

LarryDaMan

charlemagne wrote: »

I truly appreciate your kind response. This is a good, civil, exchange of ideas. I see your point regarding some certs being barriers. I, for example, cannot take the PMP due to PMI's rules pertaining to project management experience and despite all the advanced degrees, teaching, writing, etc., it simply is not what they define as project mgt. I do not agree but I have no control over it in that I cannot change their rules. Thus, I can either accept it and explore other options (CAPM since I already have Project+) or be upset with PMI. For me, being upset with the "system" is not going to change it. It will only cause me personal grief over that which I can't change.
Regarding barriers, one must pass a variety of exams and obtain a license (plus, just to apply take the MCAT) to be a physician. Didn't used to be that way. Yet, it is and some don't get in to med school due to the MCAT exam. Is this "bad?" Maybe not the best analogy but it just popped into my mind since my family is inundated with physicians.
I respect your view. I think I understand your point of view. I think a bit differently in that society places barriers on each of us and we accept them. One must obtain a driver's license to legally drive. Barrier? By definition but in this case most simply do what one has to do. Take a test and get a license to drive (and pay a fee). You can, going back to medicine, obtain a license to practice and the AMA along with state governments control who can or cannot obtain a license. Some fail. Some don't. But, should the concept of a medical license be dropped just to open the door for some that disagree?
My point is: If you must have a specific cert and only one entity issues this, then you have to choose whether to take it and pay the fee and reap the benefits later, or refuse (which is fine) and blame the "system" of being unfair. I say, do what you must do to obtain your goal. "Fairness" has, I think, less to do with it. As Mark Twain said, the world "owes" us nothing...since it was here first.
Regarding fees for exams/certs. It seems your point is that the amount charged is unfair, unethical, immoral...you choose the adjective. What, I ask, would you say they do? Charge nothing and allow anyone to take their exam? What would the implications be? OK...lower the fees or prereqs. Then what?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you have issues with their profit margin. Yes? No? I interpret (correct me if I'm wrong) your remarks about capitalism as, again, you have particular unsaid assumptions about capitalism that form an aspect of your underlying premise. If you disagree with capitalism that is fine. I just don't see the link between an economic model and exam fees since one can travel to many nations that are not a free-market system and still see barriers, unfair "fees," and who is to blame? What is your answer?
Capitalism isn't what creates the fee structure for CompTIA. If you have issues with those that make huge profits, then what is your answer? Allow government to control the price of an exam? If so, then what is next? History shows us many examples of "what next."
Lastly, critical thinking is amongst the key skills in the "information age." It applies to all disciplines and areas of life. In the context of your original statement, I didn't ask for "proof." Read my previous remarks. I said one should back an assertion such as this up with logical premises to form a sound conclusion. This has nothing to do with being "correct" since I could be completely wrong in a certain argument but still use logical premises to support my claim/conclusion. You learn this in freshman logic courses. It's not meant to say "you have to 'prove' everything with scientific certainty." Not at all! To ask for "evidence" is not meant to be in manner of applying the scientific method to use logic to support a conclusion.

You know this as I believe you are an educated, intelligent person.

Thank you and I don't think we need to take this any further. My initial statement on this was brief and was not the most relevant aspect of the questions being posed. I do not intend to defend the side of anti-capitalism. I don't want government setting prices, but I am glad that some attempts are made to address illegal monopolies, gauging tactics, and price fixing schemes...etc. These illegalities may not be applicable here, and I do enjoy the trappings of our economic system. Life is not fair, but sometimes if feels good to complain about it, right? I think if you'll take a search through forum posts, you'll see that many professionals (especially younger ones) on this board have taken the same issue with the pricing schedules of certain certifications and/or courses of training.

antielvis

I often do certifications solely out of curiousity. For example, I took several Apple certifications just to take them. They had no bearing or material impact in my career nor is it likely they ever will. But I wanted to figure out how things worked & i wanted proof I'd taken them. I took the A+ exam after my MCSE solely because I figured I should have it.

Obviously all people have limited time, but hey, there is nothing wrong with learning how other things work. It gives you a deeper, broader concept of how this whole industry works.

charlemagne

LarryDaMan wrote: »

Thank you and I don't think we need to take this any further. My initial statement on this was brief and was not the most relevant aspect of the questions being posed. I do not intend to defend the side of anti-capitalism. I don't want government setting prices, but I am glad that some attempts are made to address illegal monopolies, gauging tactics, and price fixing schemes...etc. These illegalities may not be applicable here, and I do enjoy the trappings of our economic system. Life is not fair, but sometimes if feels good to complain about it, right? I think if you'll take a search through forum posts, you'll see that many professionals (especially younger ones) on this board have taken the same issue with the pricing schedules of certain certifications and/or courses of training.

Agreed. You made many good points and the original question was a good one for all to reflect upon. Best of luck in your future endeavors!

paul78

@docrice - I've never considered certifications referred as flair before. But it's quite the analogy - I may borrow it from you in the future . Very well put.

@N2IT - I assume you are referring to my comment about the Comptia certs. I admit that I'm not entirely conversant with it's value since that's not the path that I took in my own career. But from what I've learned about it (mostly from this forum and my own review of it's curriculum) - it does seem that the A+ should provide a good guide for anyone that has very little IT knowledge and appears to provide practical information. I don't disagree with your assertion that getting all 3 of the A+, N+, S+ is probably not necessary for most people.