Question about CIS degree

cesar602

SO i am transferring to ASU (Arizona state university) in Spring 2014 from a community college, i really like math and computers but CIS seems like it's more business and computer's. I'm wondering if CIS is worth it, are the jobs out there or if i should switch majors for something more math and computer's like engineering?

sheckler

Well what type of career are you interested in having? Programming/software development or systems/network administration? If you like math and programming, then go for Computer Science.

Someone else wrote this about CIS which I thought was interesting:

Part of the problem is that most IT programs, which are really CIS programs, are not well-designed. Most of them don't even begin to address the actual problems that most people will face in IT, and instead a bachelor's degree in Computer Information Systems jams together an associate's-level understanding of computer science with an associate's-level understanding of business, with most of the coding classes gutted out and maybe replaced by a course on TCP/IP networking. It's like being a level-3 Fighter/Mage when the rest of your party is all level 7 Fighters and level 7 Mages. You can be all, "Magic Missile!" but you're only shooting two missiles and you can't even cast while wearing armor.

That being said, a lot of the ire is that even at an otherwise well-respected college, there's a good chance that if you're a CIS major, you're wasting time that's better spent gaining practical work experience, because the program probably won't teach you enough about business or IT to be actually useful in either. I'm inclined to agree with this assessment; if you want to get into IT but hate code, you're probably better off just majoring in business or English and picking up the job skills on your own time.

charlemagne

cesar602 wrote: »

SO i am transferring to ASU (Arizona state university) in Spring 2014 from a community college, i really like math and computers but CIS seems like it's more business and computer's. I'm wondering if CIS is worth it, are the jobs out there or if i should switch majors for something more math and computer's like engineering?

I used to be a professor and student adviser. Just my opinion but, if you like both mathematics and computer science my advice (and I base this upon recent employment figures and you should do some research since a lot of info is out there) is: Yes. If you want a degree that is in engineering and has perhaps the lowest unemployment rate, petroleum engineering (BS) will land you a great job. If not this, then having a strong foundation in mathematics (knock out the chemistry and physics since there probably required additional courses in a BS in any engineering, computer science, physical science major.
Also, don't feel rushed. You are, I am only guessing, a "traditional" age college student. If so, then whatever path you take be sure to 1) Do not listen to some old professor (yes, I know...I was one but I'm not "old") that hasn't looked for a job in 20 years or more. It's a mistake I've seen many students make and it led to lots of loans and burn out due to believing that "Dr" (insert name) must "know" what s/he is talking about. No. Believe me, or don't as you can ask others on this, do your own research. The librarians are your friends on campus and have no vested interest in keeping you in a major so they can lead you to sources of great career advice and stats on the "best" fields.
You have options. Use your free electives wisely. You could have a double major but that is up to you. Bottom line: Get the degree since you state your interests are math and engineering (software engineering? Just a thought).
ASU has some good programs. Don't fall into the certification trap as some will say here that you don't need a degree. Well, that is up to you but research three or four fields, look at the programs, speak to some recent grads of these programs and you'll find your way. It isn't going to be easy or quick. Do not seek the "path of least resistance." But, your goals, your degree, is an investment. Really. It's not some esoteric thing that professors made up to sound good. You're young once. Better now than when you're 40...like me. But, I wish you the best and I know some people at ASU. Anyway, good luck. Take all advice (even mine) with some healthy skepticism. Not that any advice here is not true but always research for your own goals.
*And choose a major that requires an internship or some type of practicum to graduate.* It's a good way to get experience and internship/practicum based programs are, generally, a better choice than one that doesn't offer this.

cesar602

To be honest, i have no idea what career path i want to be in.

cesar602

charlemagne wrote: »

I used to be a professor and student adviser. Just my opinion but, if you like both mathematics and computer science my advice (and I base this upon recent employment figures and you should do some research since a lot of info is out there) is: Yes. If you want a degree that is in engineering and has perhaps the lowest unemployment rate, petroleum engineering (BS) will land you a great job. If not this, then having a strong foundation in mathematics (knock out the chemistry and physics since there probably required additional courses in a BS in any engineering, computer science, physical science major.
Also, don't feel rushed. You are, I am only guessing, a "traditional" age college student. If so, then whatever path you take be sure to 1) Do not listen to some old professor (yes, I know...I was one but I'm not "old") that hasn't looked for a job in 20 years or more. It's a mistake I've seen many students make and it led to lots of loans and burn out due to believing that "Dr" (insert name) must "know" what s/he is talking about. No. Believe me, or don't as you can ask others on this, do your own research. The librarians are your friends on campus and have no vested interest in keeping you in a major so they can lead you to sources of great career advice and stats on the "best" fields.
You have options. Use your free electives wisely. You could have a double major but that is up to you. Bottom line: Get the degree since you state your interests are math and engineering (software engineering? Just a thought).
ASU has some good programs. Don't fall into the certification trap as some will say here that you don't need a degree. Well, that is up to you but research three or four fields, look at the programs, speak to some recent grads of these programs and you'll find your way. It isn't going to be easy or quick. Do not seek the "path of least resistance." But, your goals, your degree, is an investment. Really. It's not some esoteric thing that professors made up to sound good. You're young once. Better now than when you're 40...like me. But, I wish you the best and I know some people at ASU. Anyway, good luck. Take all advice (even mine) with some healthy skepticism. Not that any advice here is not true but always research for your own goals.
*And choose a major that requires an internship or some type of practicum to graduate.* It's a good way to get experience and internship/practicum based programs are, generally, a better choice than one that doesn't offer this.

Wow, thanks alot! So i can have a double major? I didn't even know it was possible. Is it to late to even change my CIS major to something else since i only have one more semester in my community college.

charlemagne

cesar602 wrote: »

Wow, thanks alot! So i can have a double major? I didn't even know it was possible. Is it to late to even change my CIS major to something else since i only have one more semester in my community college.

It isn't too late but changing majors at this point will delay your graduation/completion since your new major will require additional/new courses. If you're already about to complete a two year degree in CIW, do it. Transfer the degree (rather than course by course) to ASU and then declare your major as engineering or computer science or something else. You can declare a double major at ASU. With your CIW two year degree, you'll have the general ed requirements completed and most (depending on your chosen major(s) at ASU) many other courses. I would highly recommend (if you haven't already) to contact ASU ASAP and begin Emailing the dept. chairperson in various department (i.e. Majors) that you're interested in. Tell him/her about yourself ahead of time. Show interest. It helps.
I am not in Arizona. Yet, it depends upon your time frame, funding, etc. If you're so close to completing a two year degree, then do it. You're still eligible for financial aid (if needed) and, again, it's much easier to transfer degrees rather than courses. I can clarify this further if you need it as it can get confusing.
If you didn't know about double majors, then there is a lot of options you might not be aware of. What are you interested in at ASU (think about majors) and I'll look at their requirements. I can look at most any major and its requirements, compare them to an AA/AS degree (need to see that institutions degree you're working on at the moment), and then do this: Contact them, see what they say first. Don't tell me a thing. And, then compare what I say with what you're told.
I am certain you'll see a good deal of the same. I've done it hundreds of times. It's simple for me. Yet, before I go too far. I need more info and prefer you send me a private message. Some things better left out of the public domain. It's up to you. I'm happy to give you my opinions.
I envy you in that you have a lot to look forward to. I remember those days. You truly have a ton of options.

cesar602

Seems because i am a new user i cannot send messages, sorry. I am currently attending phoenix college and here is the degree im going to complete and transfer it toward ASU here

charlemagne

cesar602 wrote: »

Seems because i am a new user i cannot send messages, sorry. I am currently attending phoenix college and here is the degree im going to complete and transfer it toward ASU here

Got it. I know, now, the precise college you attend. I know someone that used to teach there. I wanted to respond so you'd know I have the link. I will look through it today when I have more time (after 2:00pm). I'll PM you and then see if you can respond. If not, then here is okay. First, how many credit hours have you completed? Use the 6 hour of free electives toward something that will be applicable to any engineering or computer science field. Let me review the courses they offer at your college now and let me know:
1) How many hours you still need?
2) Which courses in math you've already completed?
3) Which courses in computer science/computer (anything) and course numbers (i.e. "101, 102...the courses) you have completed and those you still need.
4) which general ed courses you still need...sometimes you can fit good choices in this category.

I will look into it and let me know about 1-4, as soon as you can.

charlemagne

cesar602 wrote: »

Seems because i am a new user i cannot send messages, sorry. I am currently attending phoenix college and here is the degree im going to complete and transfer it toward ASU here

You need to go to your account profile and "allow" private messaging because I tried to send you one and received an error message stating that you do not have private messaging activated. Not a problem. Just go to account profile and click where to activate it. I'll look over the material as I mentioned and get back with you in the afternoon.

charlemagne

cesar602 wrote: »

Seems because i am a new user i cannot send messages, sorry. I am currently attending phoenix college and here is the degree im going to complete and transfer it toward ASU here

You need to just click on "account profile" and scroll down and check the box that states "allow private messaging" or something close to this phrase. After this, you will be able to send and receive private messages from any member.

ptilsen

Since you like "math and computers," have found yourself on TechExams, and were considering CIS, I would say it's obvious you should be seriously looking at computer science. Even if you go into a role like many of us have (systems/networking administration and the like), computer science holds a lot of weight and builds a big foundation. What Sheckler posted about CIS is not too far off the mark. It's usually introductory business and computers glued together. It has a place and it definitely holds weight, but you don't see a lot of people interested in "math and computers" forgo computer science for CIS.

Also, you'll probably know within your introductory programming course whether you like it. From what I've seen, most people decide whether they like programming very quickly. I think it's something everyone should try, but it isn't something for everyone.

That being said, there are many, many different STEM jobs out there. Do lots of research, talk to people in different fields. Even after you've made a choice, be willing to switch majors. Don't break the bank, but there are so many options that you shouldn't settle on computer science because some guy on some forum said it makes sense.

sratakhin

I agree with going for a CS degree. I majored in MIS (pretty much the same thing as CIS) and it didn't really provide me with any useful skills or knowledge. Had I not studied on my own, I wouldn't even have gotten my current job.
If I could go back in time, I would prefer to find another school with a CS degree. The only reasons why I ended up studying MIS were because the classes were cheap and I could graduate in just one year.

cesar602

charlemagne wrote: »

Got it. I know, now, the precise college you attend. I know someone that used to teach there. I wanted to respond so you'd know I have the link. I will look through it today when I have more time (after 2:00pm). I'll PM you and then see if you can respond. If not, then here is okay. First, how many credit hours have you completed? Use the 6 hour of free electives toward something that will be applicable to any engineering or computer science field. Let me review the courses they offer at your college now and let me know:
1) How many hours you still need?
2) Which courses in math you've already completed?
3) Which courses in computer science/computer (anything) and course numbers (i.e. "101, 102...the courses) you have completed and those you still need.
4) which general ed courses you still need...sometimes you can fit good choices in this category.

I will look into it and let me know about 1-4, as soon as you can.

It should be fixed now, if not then i don't have sufficient privileges yet.

1. Well i am going to taking summer classes 7 hours of that and fall 2013 im taking 12 hours

2. i have completed mat 151 (college math) and im currently taking mat 213 (brief calculus) and im taking mat 218 (Math Analysis/Business) in summer because i need it to enter ASU.

3. i have taken CIS 105 (Survey computer Info systems), CIS 133DA (Internet/Web Dev Lev 1), CIS 162AD (C#: Level 1), i need to take CIS 250 (Management info. systems)

4. I still need Natural Sciences and i was planning on taking CHM 130 (Fundamental chemistry) for it and im guessing for Business i'm taking GBS 221 (Business Statistics) fall 2013


Thanks alot of helping me out, i really appreciate it.

cesar602

sratakhin wrote: »

I agree with going for a CS degree. I majored in MIS (pretty much the same thing as CIS) and it didn't really provide me with any useful skills or knowledge. Had I not studied on my own, I wouldn't even have gotten my current job.
If I could go back in time, I would prefer to find another school with a CS degree. The only reasons why I ended up studying MIS were because the classes were cheap and I could graduate in just one year.

How hard was it for you to find a job with the MIS degree?

cesar602

ptilsen wrote: »

Since you like "math and computers," have found yourself on TechExams, and were considering CIS, I would say it's obvious you should be seriously looking at computer science. Even if you go into a role like many of us have (systems/networking administration and the like), computer science holds a lot of weight and builds a big foundation. What Sheckler posted about CIS is not too far off the mark. It's usually introductory business and computers glued together. It has a place and it definitely holds weight, but you don't see a lot of people interested in "math and computers" forgo computer science for CIS.

Also, you'll probably know within your introductory programming course whether you like it. From what I've seen, most people decide whether they like programming very quickly. I think it's something everyone should try, but it isn't something for everyone.

That being said, there are many, many different STEM jobs out there. Do lots of research, talk to people in different fields. Even after you've made a choice, be willing to switch majors. Don't break the bank, but there are so many options that you shouldn't settle on computer science because some guy on some forum said it makes sense.

Well for my intro course for programming i got a B, the teacher was not good, he was terrible so i just followed the steps on the book to pass the class. I would of chosen CS as soon as i got into college but i use to hate math with a passion, not till i started getting into the higher level math which i found to be easier and more "fun." I really want to be successful in life, im terrified of failing.

ptilsen

I was the same way. I don't know if I truly hated it, but it wasn't interesting to me beyond algebra and basic statistics because I couldn't use it. Now that I'm in CS and am learning discrete math, calculus, and seeing what they can do, I like it more and more every day.

If you got through your introductory programming course essentially without the book, at the very least you're smart enough for CS and shouldn't be too afraid of failing. It's just a question of what you like. Not everyone who likes computers really likes coding, even basic scripting.

That's not to say computer science is the only path for computers + math. Electrical engineering or similar programs are worth looking at. I, personally, am loving CS and wish I'd gone down this road six years ago.

cesar602

ptilsen wrote: »

I was the same way. I don't know if I truly hated it, but it wasn't interesting to me beyond algebra and basic statistics because I couldn't use it. Now that I'm in CS and am learning discrete math, calculus, and seeing what they can do, I like it more and more every day.

If you got through your introductory programming course essentially without the book, at the very least you're smart enough for CS and shouldn't be too afraid of failing. It's just a question of what you like. Not everyone who likes computers really likes coding, even basic scripting.

That's not to say computer science is the only path for computers + math. Electrical engineering or similar programs are worth looking at. I, personally, I'm loving CS and wish I'd gone down this road six years ago.

So right now you are taking CS but have a degree is MIS correct? How different are both of those?

ptilsen

I don't have a degree in MIS. I have an AAS in "computer networking." Sratakhin has the MIS degree. MIS and CIS are very different from CS, but those differences can vary a lot from school to school. Some CIS programs are light CS with no math. Some are totally different and share nothing but introductory programming. My degree was very much applied network infrastructure. TCP/IP, Windows, Cisco, that type of stuff -- stuff that doesn't come up much in most CIS or MIS degrees, but probably should for them to be useful in the field.

CS is mostly programming, foundations, and theory. CS is generally very different than MIS/CIS/IT degrees, but again, it can vary. Look at the curriculum for your school and read the course descriptions. Ask us, or anyone knowledgeable if you don't really get what it will be about. Ask yourself as you get a decent understand of what you will learn for a given degree whether you think it's something you will enjoy. You might look at CIS and say "hey, that sounds like fun." You might not.

charlemagne

cesar602 wrote: »

How hard was it for you to find a job with the MIS degree?

I have, too, an MSLIS and had a job immediately upon graduation. Now, it really depends upon the area and other factors. Yet, I wouldn't use my experience or anyone else's (times change and so does the economy) to form conclusions about what path to take. I base anything posted as my "opinion" on very detailed demographic and statistical employment information from sources ranging from the Dept. of Labor and others. I'm researching various topics right now. Remember, you can declare a double major and this can be quite helpful. Looking at what sub-fields within engineering have the lowest unemployment rate and highest placement rate amongst recent graduates, a BS in petroleum engineering is a gem. ASU doesn't have this but the info is there for all to see a BS in this is quite good. Biomedical engineering, another field that is something worth considering due to the very low unemployment rate of recent BS recipients. Software Engineering is another field to research due, again, to the overall success of recent BS recipients ability to obtain jobs in their field after receiving their degree. Bottom line with any technical degree: The more math you take now, the better. Mathematics is applicable to so many different majors. On such a site as this you have many people with diverse backgrounds and experiences. It's quite subjective. Any engineering degree (BS) is going to be harder than CIS. There is a reason why there are many students that either change their major from engineering (any type) to less mathematical fields such as CIS because it's not (for most) easy to complete all the courses and actually get a BS in petroleum, software, or electrical engineering. Still, it's a matter of motivation and if you want something bad enough, you'll do it. This can easily diverge into a question of what degree is "better" rather than you, that is, what is best for you...not me, not anyone else. I will not say any other person's opinions aren't valuable. Lot's of successful people here. I will continue in private messages. I can say that I've looked at hundreds of transcripts and advised students and I'm still in contact with many. Anything I say, you can verify and then decide for yourself. I probably would, if I were in your shoes and had so much yet to complete, not go for CIS. I'm not saying this because I think CIS degrees cannot lead to good opportunities since there are so many ways to enhance this particular BS degree but, starting out, I would certainly enter engineering/computer science but CIS isn't useless nor something to ignore. There is a reason you don't have an over supply of neurosurgeons or other physicians. It's hard, long, and often requires a dedication that many don't have. Yet, in the end, these folks are considered amongst most respected, needed, and well paid professional in the nation. All this is putting the cart way before the horse. First, concentrate on doing the best you can in the courses you're in; do your research on those fields that both interest you and when you look at courses realize what you are willing to put into it, effort wise. Contact the people at ASU, contact recent grads (their contact info is kept at the dept level...most department chairpersons will be happy to give you an Email address) and ask them about their experience.I'm looking at courses and faculty in various majors in CS/Engineering. You need to contact these people soon just to get some information. I will send you private messages. I don't want this thread to get bogged down in how people value a CIS degree when the question is about you, not anyone else. So, private messages will be my next contact with you. You've got a ton of options. Talk to you via PM's.

charlemagne

ptilsen wrote: »

I was the same way. I don't know if I truly hated it, but it wasn't interesting to me beyond algebra and basic statistics because I couldn't use it. Now that I'm in CS and am learning discrete math, calculus, and seeing what they can do, I like it more and more every day.If you got through your introductory programming course essentially without the book, at the very least you're smart enough for CS and shouldn't be too afraid of failing. It's just a question of what you like. Not everyone who likes computers really likes coding, even basic scripting.That's not to say computer science is the only path for computers + math. Electrical engineering or similar programs are worth looking at. I, personally, I'm loving CS and wish I'd gone down this road six years ago.

I agree...Electrical engineering or similar programs are worth looking into. Good post! Lots of really good people here and they know a lot. Great insight ptilsen. Really.

cesar602

ASU offer's a few CS degrees, the CS degree and the CS degree (software engineering) are almost exactly the same based on the courses i have to take, is there really any difference in the real world for these degrees?

sratakhin

Cesar, I had a job offer way before I graduated but my degree didn't really help me. It was a combination of experience, internship, certifications and knowing the right people

ptilsen

cesar602 wrote: »

ASU offer's a few CS degrees, the CS degree and the CS degree (software engineering) are almost exactly the same based on the courses i have to take, is there really any difference in the real world for these degrees?

I really doubt any employer would care about the (software engineering) designation that much. If they're looking at two candidates with computer science degrees, the other factors are going to be what determines the hiring, IMO. As far as choosing between the two, it would come down to (IMO) what you think is more in line with your interests.

cesar602

Ive been looking at companies in my area (Phoenix, Arizona) and Intel has alot of internships for CS, guess ill be heading there when i transfer to ASU

charlemagne

cesar602 wrote: »

ASU offer's a few CS degrees, the CS degree and the CS degree (software engineering) are almost exactly the same based on the courses i have to take, is there really any difference in the real world for these degrees?

Excellent example of a case when one should declare a double major. "Two-for-one" almost. Having both is better than paying for one BS since a double major will not take more time or, at least, not a lot. The ROI is excellent with these two majors. Again, think of it as an investment. You're paying so, get the most out of what you pay for a BS. I got two with a double major and it helped tremendously.

ptilsen

I'm not so sure that's really a different major. Without looking at the university description, I would assume that it is a focus track. E.g., I could major in Economics at my university going down either the "Economics" track or the "Business Economics" track, which are basically just guidelines on complimentary electives. They're not majors in and of themselves, and you can mix and match courses as long as you meet pre-reqs and degree reqs.

I would expect "CS (software engineering)" to be the same major as CS, but with the elective degree courses focused on software engineering as opposed to some other focus or no focus at all. Of course, I could be wrong, but that is my immediate reaction, and I've seen similar choices at state schools in MN. Check the web site or email the appropriate group or person at the U to find out the details.

In any case, what I would really do is look at it from a perspective of what you want to learn. Employers are going to see BS, Computer Science Major from a state school and that will be about it. The software engineering focus might be a small bonus, but I wouldn't look at it as a career goal, even if you want to be a software engineer. Look at it from what you think will be more fulfilling. If you look through the course catalogs and say, "hey, I'd rather take an extra class on cryptography, or e-discovery, or distributed systems over these software engineering courses," then go for that.

Of course, if you're willing and able to take more courses than needed because the subject material interests you and you think the value is good, I won't necessarily discourage that. I'm personally planning to take 5 more credits than needed just to get a minor I don't need.