H1-B Visa legislation proposal

Wilson502

Tech Workers Wary, Industry Hopeful on H-1B Proposal - Dice News
Dunno if you guys have read about this, but it definitely is something for us in this field to follow, what are your guys thoughts on it?

instant000

The so-called "STEM shortage" is a lie.

Another approach is to call it a "self-fulfilling" prophecy, as people get told by IT workers to not go into IT because they got laid off because they were replaced by cheaper foreigners. As people see what people are getting paid (that is, if there is a shortage, why aren't wages going up?)

Truthfully, it is all about wage arbitration.

I realized in childhood that you should never trust these things to be honest:
- a politication
- a lobbyist
- a profit-seeking company
- a news organization
- textbooks

Whenever any legislation is proposed, the proper question to ask is "who profits from this?"
The answer is invariably this: NOT the everyday American people.

Hope this helps.

Wilson502

Thats kind of what I gathered from it as well, whenever "industry" pushes something, its usually NOT in the interest of workers, its to pad their own pockets. Jus seems like another way to screw U.S. Citizens out of jobs at a time there is still high unemployment.

sratakhin

There must be something wrong with some U.S. citizens if companies prefer to hire foreign workers instead.

I'll be happy if the law is passed. Don't want to cause any hate directed at me but I'm one of those workers that will need an H-1b visa soon. If it's too difficult to come to the U.S. and work here, well, there are other countries that make it easier for smart people to come and eventually become citizens.

The question is whether the U.S. will remain competitive in the global market, if workers move to other countries instead of the U.S. Even worse if they study at American universities and then go somewhere else.

Wilson502

They want to hire foreign workers because they will work for less money, simple as that (which in turn drives wages down across the board). So companies abuse the system for that reason. Instant000 hits the nail on the head with his post to the reality of the situation.

sratakhin

Immigration: The Human Cost - YouTube

DPG

It used to be that immigrants were coming to this country to do jobs that Americans didn't want to do. Now they are coming to do jobs that Americans can't do.

paul78

Wilson502 wrote: »

They want to hire foreign workers because they will work for less money, simple as that (which in turn drives wages down across the board).

I would respectfully disagree with that sentiment - at least for IT.

The reality is that most IT work can be done just about anywhere in the world. If I was to labour arbitrage IT work, the reality is that I would simply move the work overseas. I work for a public US-based global company and I am incentivized to create share-holder value. In IT, that means reducing costs. It is far more valuable to the US economy if I was to be able to hire people in the US, regardless of whether they are H-1b holders or otherwise. Than for me to simply move the work to facilities outside the US.

If the work remains in the US with workers who are paying taxes, buying/renting real estate, and spending their dollars in the US - I would imagine that would be preferable than for me to simply move the work outside the US where the dollars would no longer be spent in the US.

It's interesting to me that the article doesn't mention how this will potentially help keep innovation and entrepreneurs in the US. It has always struck me as odd that people come to the US to be educated but they can't stay in the US to build businesses and grow the US economy.

I'm not an economist nor do I pretend to understand how these macro economic forces work. But I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that article outlines.

Wilson502

DPG wrote: »

It used to be that immigrants were coming to this country to do jobs that Americans didn't want to do. Now they are coming to do jobs that Americans can't do.

Or companies figured out how to abuse the system to pay lower wages......

sratakhin

I wouldn't call it "abusing the system". Wages are determined by the laws of supply and demand. Every time the government gets involved in determining what's best for the economy, it creates inefficiency. Yes, some people "suffer" because instead of getting paid $100k+ they now have to accept $80k or whatever, but so what? Should the government set the price floor for wages, artificially creating unemployment among those who din't deserve higher wages?

Some people may argue that immigrants shouldn't even come here so that the competition for jobs is limited. Wake up, it's the XXI century.

Wilson502

sratakhin wrote: »

I wouldn't call it "abusing the system". Wages are determined by the laws of supply and demand. Every time the government gets involved in determining what's best for the economy, it creates inefficiency. Yes, some people "suffer" because instead of getting paid $100k+ they now have to accept $80k or whatever, but so what? Should the government set the price floor for wages, artificially creating unemployment among those who din't deserve higher wages?

Some people may argue that immigrants shouldn't even come here so that the competition for jobs is limited. Wake up, it's the XXI century.

The Law of supply and demand can be manipulated (the price oil supposedly follows "supply and demand" but really doesn't), and laying off people at a company who have been working there a number years just to have them replaced with h-1b's at a lower pay rate is a great example of this and this has been done throughout the industry. There is obvious abuse and fraud in the system that needs to be addressed (such as granting visas to Off shoring companies, etc.). I didnt say anything about creating price floor's but the government should look out for the best interest of it's citizens (even though it usually doesn't and follows whats in the best interest of big business), what I'm saying is that H1-B's shouldn't be displacing citizens out of jobs if the citizens are more than capable of performing said work just to save said companies a few dollars so that upper management gets a bigger bonus cause that's what it comes down to.

paul78

Wilson502 wrote: »

... the government should look out for the best interest of it's citizens (even though it usually doesn't and follows whats in the best interest of big business)

Did you vote at the last US election? Last time I checked big businesses don't get to vote or are you saying that lobbyist secretly run the US government?

Wilson502 wrote: »

... H1-B's shouldn't be displacing citizens out of jobs if the citizens are more than capable of performing said work...

It's against the law for employers in the US to do that. Under the law, employers must pay the prevailing wage to a H1B holder provided that another suitable employee cannot be hired. If you are aware of this occurring in a particular company, you may want to consider contacting the Department of Labor.

tpatt100

Even if you vote, voting can only do so much. Most of what is involved with politics is perception vs reality. Depending on the timing of passing laws and bills most citizens barely hear about the stuff. If it is close to a mid term then it becomes a concern but even then a lot of the time something can fail and just come back in another form with a new title and then pass lol.

I have been reading different articles here and there and some of the talent that is producing many of the advances in technology are immigrants. And from reading this it seems to be more about attracting immigrants with higher education levels, this one failed but was proposed:

STEM Jobs Act of 2012 (2012; 112th Congress H.R. 6429) - GovTrack.us

STEM Jobs Act of 2012 – Amends the Immigration and Nationality Act to make up to 55,000 visas available to qualified immigrants who1) have a doctorate degree in a field of science, technology, engineering, or mathematics (STEM degree) from a U.S. university;
(2) agree to work for at least five years for the petitioning employer or in the United States in a STEM field upon being lawfully admitted for permanent residence; and
(3) have taken all doctoral courses in a STEM field, including all correspondence courses, while physically present in the United States. Makes any such unused visas available to aliens who:
(1) hold a master’s degree in a STEM field from a U.S. university;
(2) agree to work for a total of at least five years for the petitioning employer or in the United States in a STEM field upon being lawfully admitted for permanent residence;
(3) have taken all master’s degree courses in a STEM field, including all correspondence courses, while physically present in the United States; and
(4) hold a baccalaureate degree in a STEM field or in the biological and biomedical sciences.

Wilson502

paul78 wrote: »

Did you vote at the last US election? Last time I checked big businesses don't get to vote or are you saying that lobbyist secretly run the US government?



It's against the law for employers in the US to do that. Under the law, employers must pay the prevailing wage to a H1B holder provided that another suitable employee cannot be hired. If you are aware of this occurring in a particular company, you may want to consider contacting the Department of Labor.

Businesses "vote" by lobbying/paying off politicians. Theres no secret about big businesses spending large amounts of money to politicians and legislators to get legislation passed that favors them.... It may be "against the law" to do that, but businesses find loopholes to get around that. Just like its "illegal" to hire illegal immigrants but it happens anyway.

bdub

NPR ran a story on this which I found to be pretty interesting. Pretty much supports the idea that most companies are using the visa's to cut costs. Posted this in another thread that came up on this topic.

Who's Hiring H-1B Visa Workers? It's Not Who You Might Think : All Tech Considered : NPR

Personally, I think we definitely want to do what we can to attract talent to our country, but there needs to be more oversight so that he visas dont get abused by companies just looking to cut costs by hiring cheaper labour.

pwjohnston

It's to drive wages down, plain and simple.

paul78 wrote: »

I work for a public US-based global company and I am incentivized to create share-holder value.

This is where a real problem lies in the US system. When shareholder means more than customer and what is good for the overall health of the business. The whole system is backasswards. This is why American capitalism has lost it's way to profit at all cost, soon there will be nothing to derive profit from. Shareholders are parasites.

tpatt100

pwjohnston wrote: »

It's to drive wages down, plain and simple.



This is where a real problem lies in the US system. When shareholder means more than customer and what is good for the overall health of the business. The whole system is backasswards. This is why American capitalism has lost it's way to profit at all cost, soon there will be nothing to derive profit from. Shareholders are parasites.

Yeah unfortunately it's become hard to not notice when companies announce lay offs to reduce expenses in the hopes it boost shareholder confidence.

paul78

I do realize that this topic may be controversial for folks; especially in the US. And most people are unlikely to change their views on the topic in the near term. I'm not an economist but from what I've gleened, protectionsim and anit-globalization economic policies are not usually not sustainable.

@pwjohnston - creating shareholder value is not contrary with creating customer satisfaction and building a healthy business. Shareholder value is actually created when there is a healthy business which aspires to have delighted customers. That's how companies maintain competitiveness and grow - and more importantly - create more jobs.

Also, hopefully, your comment about shareholders being parasites was simply a response to an emotional topic. I own stock in many American companies including the one that I work for. Investing in American companies not only allows companies to have the capital to fund innovation and grow (and hopefully create jobs). But for the average American worker, investing a part of their savings in the stock market (either through their 401K plan or a ROTH IRA) is part of a prudent retirement strategy.

Sounds Good

how are companies saving costs wage-wise when the foreign workers are "supposed" to be paid equal wages?

hoktauri

Sounds Good wrote: »

how are companies saving costs wage-wise when the foreign workers are "supposed" to be paid equal wages?

Take someone who's been with a company 10+ years and has a large salary, can them and bring in a replacement at the "average" salary for that job in the area. Keep bringing in more, create less demand for the pool of applicants and drive the average down even more when people have to undercut others on salary to get the job. And this is my personal favorite since it's why I couldn't find an IT job and started my own company, granted this is one experience. Refuse to train new employees, post excessive job requirements for low pay and then tell everyone you can't find qualified employees which will let you bring in more visa holders and further increase the talent pool and drive down average wages.

The visas can also be a gateway for outsourcing, you bring in a visa holder who shows he can do the job and when he leaves you are left wondering why not send the job with them to India or wherever and get it done cheaper? Hell, even a Indian Commerce Secretary called it a "outsourcing visa". This would again drive down average wages since you're now competing against people in other countries with a different labor laws and costs of living.