Help negotiating my salary

There was another another salary negotiation thread but I didnt want to thread-jack the OP.

I was asked what my asking salary would be after my second and final interview and I asked to have to time this weekend to think about it... the interviewer agreed. About an hour later, the interviewer emailed me and told me the salary will range around $61k.

Im assuming this is NOT a final number considering she asked me for my asking salary before giving me this number. How should I approach this? Would I be able to get $65k? I've never negotiated a salary before and this is my first full-time and salary-paid job after college (Im graduating next month). This job will force me to move to another city and I believe this gives me some bargaining power.

Thanks in advance

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NetworkVeteran

davidboy wrote: »

About an hour later, the interviewer emailed me and told me "salary range will be around $61k + benefits."Im assuming this is NOT a final number

Correct. He's told you what he wants to pay you. If you tell him you require more, he will consider it and either: (a) offer you more, (b) remove the offer, or (c) offer the original amount. In my experience, (a) or (b) are most likely.

How should I approach this?

It's simple. What are they paying you now? If you're making more than $61k, you'd be a fool to accept this unless there's some other compensation you're not mentioning. If you're making much less than $61k, this is a great opportunity!

(If you're unemployed, sites like Payscale and Glassdoor can tell you if the salary is reasonable.)

Would I be able to get $65k?

We can't tell you that. If you're negotiating from a position of strength--you already have a job or offers in excess of that--you have nothing to lose by asking for more. Otherwise, you have much to lose by being greedy.

This job will force me to move to another city and I believe this gives me some bargaining power.

No. What employers care about is what you bring to the table vs. what you charge.

Imagine you're hiring someone to mow your lawn. Guy #1 lives in your block and owns a mower and charges $50. Guy #2 lives 30 miles away and has to rent a mower. They are both equally good. Would you pay more for Guy #2? I certainly wouldn't. That you travelled further doesn't grant you extra negotating power, though you're not the first to express that thought.

Xyro

Now you know why you should go into any interview with a specific acceptable salary range in mind. She has fenced you in lol, but no harm done here ... 61K is a great starting salary!

You've hit it lucky so just agree, take it, & end of story. Don't destroy your opportunity over a lousy $4K.

I also have to disagree with you in terms of you having to move to another city giving you bargaining power. It removes some of your power, IMO. A company doesn't care if you have to move or not lol & if you attempt to use that as some type of bargaining tool, they will just instead opt for someone local.

Congrats!

davidboy

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Correct. He's told you what he wants to pay you. If you tell him you require more, he will consider it and either: (a) offer you more, (b) remove the offer, or (c) offer the original amount. In my experience, (a) or (b) are most likely.

Imagine you're hiring someone to mow your lawn. Guy #1 lives in your block and owns a mower and charges $50. Guy #2 lives 30 miles away and has to rent a mower. They are both equally good. Would you pay more for Guy #2? I certainly wouldn't. That you travelled further doesn't grant you extra negotating power, though you're not the first to express that thought.

So it is possible for them to take back the $61k offer if I request for $62k+? Would an employer ask me for my asking salary unless it was negotiable? I always assumed that if an employer asks, then he/she is willing to work with you.

Also, guy #1 is not available. There is no lawn mower on the block and the closest one still has to drive to your house. This is why this company is reaching out to new grads from out of the city to come in. It is a relatively small town. Think about the availability of candidates of a city like LA compared to Sacramento.

Xyro wrote: »

Now you know why you should go into any interview with a specific acceptable salary range in mind. She has fenced you in lol, but no harm done here ... 61K is a great starting salary!

You've hit it lucky so just agree, take it, & end of story. Don't destroy your opportunity over a lousy $4K.

I also have to disagree with you in terms of you having to move to another city giving you bargaining power. It removes some of your power, IMO. A company doesn't care if you have to move or not lol & if you attempt to use that as some type of bargaining tool, they will just instead opt for someone local.

Congrats!

Well I did ask for more time because I was previously unaware of the location I would be working at and I wanted to do some research on the pay in that area (which I did say over the phone).

Honestly $61k is a great offer but it sounded like the employer was willing to offer more (and believes I may provide higher values than $61k). Also, persuasive skills will be important for this position I obtain. This is a great offer and I would be making less than half of this if I stayed home and continue interning for my current organization.

NotHackingYou

For the purposes of salary negotiation, understand that the offer can be revoked at any time for any reason - by either party. Yes of course it is possible the company would be offended that you would ask for 65K and revoke their offer for employment. It is, IMO, unlikely but remember you are dealing with people, not a machine. Every person is different and has different things that are important to them.

If you think you are worth 65K instead fo 61K, ask for 65K and tell them why. If this is more aligned with the going rate express what similar positions pay in the region and what value you bring.

Understand the value you bring and current market rate for that value. Don't sell your self short, don't be unrealistic and most of all be able to back it up with good solid reasons. You need to focus on what is a fair value for you and the company and less on if you can 'get more'.

davidboy

What I did not mention is that I dont know how much Im worth. Ive checked NACE, glassdoor, and indeed but the results are inconsistent.

Xyro

You wrote:

Honestly $61k is a great offer...

I would concentrate on this ^

Understand about your persuasive skills being important here but part of learning the art of persuasion is also being able to recognize what cards you're holding. You don't throw out a set of kings trying for 3 aces, especially if you know someone is already holding 1 of them.

sratakhin

Will you be able to find another job with a similar salary if your negotiation fails? If so, go ahead. If not - it's probably not worth risking.

davidboy

Moving to the new location is my biggest constraint at the moment. Id take the same job in my city for $50k even though cost of living is higher (I live with my parents). I just don't know what are my chances of finding the same type of work in my city for $50k+ are but I would take that over this opportunity. It might take weeks to years while this opportunity is guaranteed.

I make much less at my internship right now, which is why I believe $61k is a great offer considering I want my degree to pay off ASAP.

MiikeB

We are talking about probably a $225/mo difference here after taxes.

If the job is all the experience you want then the small difference shouldn't really weigh too heavily. At this point since you are just starting your career the type of experience you get is much more important than what they are paying you.

Consider this:

A 61k job that gives you great experience could land you an 80k job in two years.

A 65k job that gives you average experience and lands you a 70k dollar job in two years.

Which position would you rather be in?

I'm not saying that asking for 65k is unreasonable, but normally when you ask for more you need something to back it up, some additional experience you believe they may not have considered or that makes you a special fit for the position. At this point you don't really have any of that, you only have your skills from college, which while probably great are not highly unique.

If I was the hiring manager for this position and grabbing someone fresh out of school I would be thinking "This guy doesn't want to work for us, he wants to work for $65k a year. I don't need someone who is just going to jump ship if they get a better offer. Pass"

cruwl

Dont forget to factor in vacation, retirement ect. If maybe if they wont budge on the 61k, maybe ask for an extra week of vacation instead? Remember that there are other things besides salary that are negotiable.

For instance my last job they were stuck at 45k and wouldnt budge, well they only offered 3 days of vacation for the first year. I negotiated 2 weeks of vaca instead since they would budge on the pay.

sieff

I was in a similar circumstance and I countered... there was a long wait to get back to me. It was like a Thursday and no call back till a Tuesday. It was the longest delay EVAARR. The counter I made was only regarding the base salary. The company was creative and came back with an extra $3K on my base salary, a $5K signing bonus and a 10% annual bonus incentive. In my case it didn't hurt to ask... I took the offer.

Now there were times when I countered with a company that I don't mind naming "Cisco Systems" and they never called me back...lmao. Anyways, it was a good thing in retrospect... The work didn't seem appealing and was a Tier III NOC position, that I'd only take if they paid a boatload of money to work a 8 hour shift, and work tickets all day... they did offer first 3 CCIE lab attempts free... still wasn't worth it to me.

I said all that to say ... $61K isn't bad, if you have other offers go up to $67, settle at $65K. if not say ... you'll need some relocation assistance and maybe some extra days paid vacation. I've even threw in including in my offer letter that if I complete a CCNP cert in the first 6 months to give me a $5K bump in salary. There's several ways to make a creative counter.

Enjoy the journey...

davidboy

MiikeB wrote: »

We are talking about probably a $225/mo difference here after taxes.

If the job is all the experience you want then the small difference shouldn't really weigh too heavily. At this point since you are just starting your career the type of experience you get is much more important than what they are paying you.

Consider this:

A 61k job that gives you great experience could land you an 80k job in two years.

A 65k job that gives you average experience and lands you a 70k dollar job in two years.

Which position would you rather be in?

With all due respect, my findings have been much different.

Wouldn’t my starting salary also affect the amount I will receive for my raises as well? This was something I read in an online article yesterday.

If $225/mo is not much for me, then it should mean nothing to them. The company can more than afford an extra $250 a month but that is actually a lot of money for me. An extra $250 means I get to fly back to visit my family/friends every month for free which is HUGE.

cruwl wrote: »

Dont forget to factor in vacation, retirement ect. If maybe if they wont budge on the 61k, maybe ask for an extra week of vacation instead? Remember that there are other things besides salary that are negotiable.

For instance my last job they were stuck at 45k and wouldnt budge, well they only offered 3 days of vacation for the first year. I negotiated 2 weeks of vaca instead since they would budge on the pay.

When I negotiate my salary, should I also negotiate my vacation days? Im pretty new at this stuff and not sure if it is possible to request for extra vacation at a company which may (or may not) have a strict rule on vacation time.

sieff wrote: »

I was in a similar circumstance and I countered... there was a long wait to get back to me. It was like a Thursday and no call back till a Tuesday. It was the longest delay EVAARR. The counter I made was only regarding the base salary. The company was creative and came back with an extra $3K on my base salary, a $5K signing bonus and a 10% annual bonus incentive. In my case it didn't hurt to ask... I took the offer.

Now there were times when I countered with a company that I don't mind naming "Cisco Systems" and they never called me back...lmao. Anyways, it was a good thing in retrospect... The work didn't seem appealing and was a Tier III NOC position, that I'd only take if they paid a boatload of money to work a 8 hour shift, and work tickets all day... they did offer first 3 CCIE lab attempts free... still wasn't worth it to me.

I said all that to say ... $61K isn't bad, if you have other offers go up to $67, settle at $65K. if not say ... you'll need some relocation assistance and maybe some extra days paid vacation. I've even threw in including in my offer letter that if I complete a CCNP cert in the first 6 months to give me a $5K bump in salary. There's several ways to make a creative counter.

Enjoy the journey...

They will provide me with relocation assistance although Im not sure how much its worth.

nicktornetta

If you want 65, ask for 70-75. If you have made it this far through the interviewing process, they aren't going to just **** you if you ask for more money. Nothing wrong with saying something like.. "is there any wiggle room here? i am really excited about this position and working for this company, but i was hoping for more like 75K." If they say no, dont press it anymore, but ask about any incentive or bonus structure if that is important to you.

If you are getting other benefits like relocation assistance, ask for specifics, and anything like that should be written into your offer letter. Again, no problem asking for what is important to you. As for vacation days, you probably cant negotiate that. Usually that is based on a company policy of some kind, and incorporated into the HR system.

Its too bad you arent working through a recruiter. it is generally in their best interest to get you as high of a salary as possible and they can tell you what other folks are getting paid.

nicktornetta

And yes, salary dictates bonus structure. If the company has "brackets" or "bands" for any given position, you are more likely to get a higher raise if you are at the low end of that band. If you are at the high end, you wont unless you change positions.

Ask about that too.

nicktornetta

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

We can't tell you that. If you're negotiating from a position of strength--you already have a job or offers in excess of that--you have nothing to lose by asking for more. Otherwise, you have much to lose by being greedy.

Worst thing that you can do is play multiple jobs against eachother. I knew someone who played the salary matching game with 3 different companies and almost lost all of the job opportunities when they figured out what was going on.

DPG

There is nothing more frustrating than finding a good prospective employee that ends up wanting to play this game. 9 times out of 10 their resume gets ****-canned.

NetworkVeteran

nicktornetta wrote: »

Worst thing that you can do is play multiple jobs against eachother.

If company A makes a 72-hour offer of $135,000 and company B makes a 72-hour offer of $147,000, and that is what's tipping you towards company B, you risk nothing by communicating that to company A.

I knew someone who played the salary matching game with 3 different companies and almost lost all of the job opportunities when they figured out what was going on.

I advocate being above-board in all your dealings. Most businesses respect honesty and integrity. In my last job search, I received offers from multiple companies. I preferred company C > A > B. Company A's offer letter came in first, followed by Company B's offer letter. Since I really wanted the role at company C, I said if they could arrange an interview and offer a.s.a.p., I would task the risk of asking for an extension. My flight and limo were booked the same day. I then told company A I needed a 2-day extension to consider competing offers, which they granted. We both took a measured risk, but I did have my company B offer if that fell through.

The interview at company C, fortunately, went fantastically.

(Incidently, I was so enamored by Company C, I told them even if they offered $10,000 less than the other two I'd take it. They offered $10,000 more, and have been forthcoming with bonuses and raises. I also have some awesome co-workers! Granted, I am a stand-out employee in some ways, and have never given them cause to regret that choice.)

(Incidently, company B's final offer was highest, and about double their starting offer.)

The above are examples of negotiating from a position of strength.

nicktornetta

Your example is definitely of negotiating from a position of strength (pretty clear when there is a limo involved ;p), and openness with each organization, which I agree with.

Glad you found a job you enjoy.. feels good when everything seems to fall into place naturally

MiikeB

davidboy wrote: »

With all due respect, my findings have been much different.

Wouldn’t my starting salary also affect the amount I will receive for my raises as well? This was something I read in an online article yesterday.

If $225/mo is not much for me, then it should mean nothing to them. The company can more than afford an extra $250 a month but that is actually a lot of money for me. An extra $250 means I get to fly back to visit my family/friends every month for free which is HUGE.

Your starting salary only affects your raises if you stay with the same company, if you jump ship somewhere else in 3 years it will be your experience that determines your salary not what the last company paid you.

$250/mo may be nothing to them, but companies are not in the business of giving money away. With no experience and only an education, you are a commodity. Now, you may have some unique projects that you did etc or the company may value finding the right fit, but the company could also just be looking to fill a spot on a team. We don't know enough about the company, its values or your education/experience to determine how the company will react. The company could like you enough that they will concede the $4,000, they may say no and offer you the position at $61k again or they may withdraw their offer. Any of these 3 is a very real possibility.

Now you have to decide how important that extra $4,000 is to you, how much you want this job vs perspective other job offers if any, the likelihood you will get what you want elsewhere, how you like the duties/job description etc then make your decision. You have to weigh it all against accepting their current offer and trying to get what you want. Do you have any data to backup $65k being a going rate in that area or why you are worth it? Are you not just wanting more because you have always heard it never hurts to ask?

Entry level positions are a different ballgame than most salary negotiations. You have little or no leverage here. You aren't currently working, you don't have unique experience etc. In future negotiations if you have in demand experience I would say go for it.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a 75% chance you will get either told no 61k is as high as we can go or sure $65k is fine but how bad will it hurt if they say "no thanks offer withdrawn?"

NotHackingYou

Do let us know what you decide and how it works out.

davidboy

I will negotiate. Im just not sure if I should ask for $65k or $63k. I am looking for $63k but am considering asking for $65k just in case they say no and throw me a counter offer (the counter offer, Im hoping, will be $63k). I am negotiating because the hiring manager told me "around" $61k; therefore $61k is not formally an offer.. With that being said, I really dont want to move but if they offer me $63k, I will do it.

I will first ask for more details about the benefits and relocation expense reimbursement and may adjust the above numbers accordingly.

Wish me luck guys! Ive been waiting for this day for nearly 5 years and worked very hard in school and at my job and internship. I'll keep you guys posted.

cvuong1984

To me, that 61k doesnt sounds like an offer at all if he said the range is around 61k.

Personally what I have been told by one of my previous hiring manager (2 jobs ago) what he uses is, if an offer is provided.

5% rule, Ask for 5% on top. So if the range or offer is 61k (so without a calc, I think it should be around 64k give or take, so 65k may not be too much more to ask for)

10% rule, you should always ask for 10% on top of what your current salary is. So if you are say making 60k at your current job. Ask for at lease 66k.

Now, In regards to their response afterwards. I have yet to have a company straight out pull back an offer. You have to understand that most likely the manager went through a lot of terrible candidates before they reach you and decided to offer you a job. Doubtful that they would just pull the offer.

I would say

1) They tell you they can not give you any more then what they offered.
2) They give you what you asked for.
3) Compromise, they offer you a little bit more.

boredgamelad

Just my two cents: I've never had a company pull an offer if I countered and would be surprised if that happened very often. They've gone through the interview process with you far enough to offer you a job, they're not going to rescind it just because you came back with a higher expectation. Unless they're a terrible company the worst I'd say you'll get is "no, we can't go higher than the original offer".

NetworkVeteran

MiikeB wrote:

I think there is a 75% chance you will get either told no 61k is as high as we can go or sure $65k is fine

Even assuming a slightly more favorable outcome than MiikeB--say 40% likely to get the raise, 40% likely to be offered the same, and 20% likely to be rejected.. his EV (expected value) in each of the two cases is--

Accepting = 100% x 61,000 = $61,000
Countering = 40% x 65,000 + 40% x 61,000 + 20% x 31,000 = $56,600

boredgamelad wrote: »

Unless they're a terrible company the worst I'd say you'll get is "no, we can't go higher than the original offer".

I would have no qualms about pulling an offer, and my employers have generally been very good places to work. New graduates are a commodity. I do hope everything works out well for the OP. Best of luck on your potential new job.

davidboy

I got what I wanted! The only negative is that I have to start the position relatively soon but at this point I'm in a position to complain at all.

Thanks to everybody who provided me insight! I remember joining this forum in 2011 when I was just about to start my MIS upper division courses and dreaming of something like this happening. The American dream is still alive.

PurpleIT

That's great! I didn't speak up, but I was in the "don't push your luck" camp - I'm happy to see I was wrong!

Good luck with the job and keep us posted.

-hype

EDIT: Nice to see it worked out for you. And You had the MIS :O, so you were right in trying to ask for a raise.

Good Luck in the future!

broli720

I know exactly what you're going through because I was in this same position last year when I graduated. Research what the market is asking for and factor in how much value you would bring to the position. If you need more money to convice you to move then ask for it. If they really pull the offer over simple negotiation then that's not really a place you should want to work. If they offered 61k then ask for a higher number like 68k and let them meet you in the middle. Don't fall into this mentality of a number like 61k being good enough. Maybe good for some but may not be for others. There is plety of money to be made in this industry and companies will nickel and dime you as much as they can. If they pay you 61k then you better believe they are probably charging a lot more for your position. Also make sure you get some relocation assistance.

Good luck.