Do your coworkers actively seek Certification?

nicktornetta

My job is not certification based, but we do need to know quite a bit about advanced network design and optical technology.

Not many seem to be interested, but since I have done the CCNA and BCND within the last couple weeks, i think that is going to motivate folks a bit more ;p

TheNewITGuy

I'm one of those guys. I never wanted a cert until about 8 years in IT. Company paid for my CCNA/CCNA Voice and these are the only certs I hold. I wont pay for a cert out of pocket and I dont see the value in obtaining certifications unless they're absolutely necessary (Partner situation, or for a new job)

I wish I was able to become complacent but i cant.. but contemplating it.

gorebrush

One company tried to tie me in if they paid for the exams.
So, I paid for them myself, finished a CCNP, then got a new job on more money. /snigger.

bobloblaw

Not many people do where I'm at. I was one of those people, for that matter. Very stagnant in my career (10+ years), extremely bored, and negative. It took a drastic attitude change and a desire to accomplish something besides my monotonous daily routine.

Here's my advice about people being negative about certifications (or anything in life for that matter) - Look at that person. Oh, the guy without his [degree/any certification] thinks they're a waste of time? You'll find more often than not that the person in question has accomplished nothing of merit. You'll typically find a commonality in that anyone dumping on X certification will also not offer any productive suggestions or another viable route to a goal. Good advice is ALWAYS coupled with a suggestion to do something. Be wary of the "Don't" people. They "Don't" want you to do anything because they "Don't" want a reflection that shows them that they "Don't" do a damn thing.

Another thing - those people that **** on lesser certs? They can sod off as well. You think A+ and N+ are jokes? Okay, Tony Stark. You clearly were designing supercomputers and MANs starting out. I've been guilty of judging entry level certs. No more. You HAVE to start somewhere. If you're AT square one, don't let anyone give you slack for starting AT square one.

Try and stay positive (it's tough sometimes). I'm not saying to go around like Tony Robbins or Stuart Smalley saying "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me!" Just look at the people you seek council from, or who scoff at you when you mention your goal(s). Get away from negative people. They're contagious.

That's my rant.

MiikeB

bobloblaw wrote: »

Another thing - those people that **** on lesser certs? They can sod off as well. You think A+ and N+ are jokes? Okay, Tony Stark. You clearly were designing supercomputers and MANs starting out. I've been guilty of judging entry level certs. No more. You HAVE to start somewhere. If you're AT square one, don't let anyone give you slack for starting AT square one.

I agree about entry level certifications. I have been guilty of judging them in the past also. If you are already working at a helpdesk or as a bench tech the A+ may not be as necessary, but when I first started and knew nothing I learned a lot. I would say I learned more overall studying for my A+ and Network+ than I did studying for my first MCSA. These certifications taught me the fundamentals which everything else builds on. I think it is easy to forget where I learned these fundamentals since I know them so well now but I can remember studying flash cards on subjects like private ip ranges, what is a vlan, ecc ram and sata transfer speeds.

RouteMyPacket

olaHalo wrote: »

I keep finding it amazing how my everyone I work with does not seem to care much for certification, education, or moving up.

"Moving up" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Certifications.


They all seem pretty content were they are and have no intentions of ever leaving unless they have to.
At my first helpdesk job there were 2 of us who were trying to get certified and we both left that company after 3 months or so because we both got better jobs. All the other guys are still there.

This is the normal for Help Desk

At my current job literally no one has any certs or a degree.(My title is Network Tech) On paper I am the most qualified employee.

You are more qualified on paper? Why? Because you have a certification? What kind of experience do your co-workers have? Do you think holding some certification trumps your co worker who has 10-15yrs of experience?

When I talk about certs or degrees with my coworkers they usually look down upon them. They say things like "I've known MCSE's who weren't too bright" or "Nothing will change if I get my CCNA."

Again, this is the norm and unfortunately they aren't too far off with such statements. There are way too many cert warriors running around that are completely worthless in a production environment. This has caused many in IT to become jaded when it comes to certifications. However, this should not deter you from your personal goals as I am sure you want to be one of the few experienced IT professional with certifications that can actually perform on the job right?

I am wondering if this is how it is with other people and their coworkers.

Based on my comments, your assumptions are correct and yes; I have worked with multiple MCSE/CCNA's who are literally clueless. It makes me shake my head but it doesn't stop me from obtaining the goals I have set in my career.

On the other side, both my IT employers only cared about the CCNA. And they dont treat it like an entry level cert.

As they shouldn't, CCNA is much more comprehensive than it use to be. A CCNA pre 2007 is definitely not equal to a current CCNA. I certainly have more respect for the CCNA now then I did years ago. Make no mistake, it still boils down to each individual. One might have crammed to pass, another might have actually studied and labbed to pass. Technical interviews are where you separate the knowledgeable from the wannabes.

Also I dont mean to sound negative. Its good that people are content with their jobs and if they are happy who am I to judge them for staying static. I just find it odd that so many people are this way (that Ive seen)

You simply cannot worry about anyone else, focus on yourself and your goals!

In bold!

RouteMyPacket

vCole wrote: »

Regardless of my employer not supporting me taking certifications or learning, I'm going for my VCP5 tomorrow.

Go for it buddy, good luck! Trust me, there is another employer out there just waiting to have your skillset on his team.

olaHalo

RouteMyPacket wrote: »

I keep finding it amazing how my everyone I work with does not seem to care much for certification, education, or moving up.

"Moving up" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Certifications.

Hence the word "or" . I didnt say they had to be related.


They all seem pretty content were they are and have no intentions of ever leaving unless they have to.
At my first helpdesk job there were 2 of us who were trying to get certified and we both left that company after 3 months or so because we both got better jobs. All the other guys are still there.

This is the normal for Help Desk

I find it odd that this is normal.

At my current job literally no one has any certs or a degree.(My title is Network Tech) On paper I am the most qualified employee.

You are more qualified on paper? Why? Because you have a certification? What kind of experience do your co-workers have? Do you think holding some certification trumps your co worker who has 10-15yrs of experience?

I have the least experience. But no one has anywhere close to 10-15 yrs in my position. (Also 10-15yrs experience in my position would probably be seen as a negative) I never said I trump them in anything.
But if we were to list out qualifications, I would appear to more qualified due to my education and certifications. I did not mean to imply I was better. But someone who glances at our resumes side by side will probably see mine as better.

When I talk about certs or degrees with my coworkers they usually look down upon them. They say things like "I've known MCSE's who weren't too bright" or "Nothing will change if I get my CCNA."

Again, this is the norm and unfortunately they aren't too far off with such statements. There are way too many cert warriors running around that are completely worthless in a production environment. This has caused many in IT to become jaded when it comes to certifications. However, this should not deter you from your personal goals as I am sure you want to be one of the few experienced IT professional with certifications that can actually perform on the job right?

I don't know if youre being sarcastic or not so I wont reply.

I am wondering if this is how it is with other people and their coworkers.

Based on my comments, your assumptions are correct and yes; I have worked with multiple MCSE/CCNA's who are literally clueless. It makes me shake my head but it doesn't stop me from obtaining the goals I have set in my career.

I have never worked with anyone with any certs (aside from the one i mentioned) so I cant compare. The whole point of this thread was to talk about the opposite of what you wrote here. I was commenting on people who dont have certs/education/drive and dont care to get them; you seem to be talking about people who have certs but are unqualified.

On the other side, both my IT employers only cared about the CCNA. And they dont treat it like an entry level cert.

As they shouldn't, CCNA is much more comprehensive than it use to be. A CCNA pre 2007 is definitely not equal to a current CCNA. I certainly have more respect for the CCNA now then I did years ago. Make no mistake, it still boils down to each individual. One might have crammed to pass, another might have actually studied and labbed to pass. Technical interviews are where you separate the knowledgeable from the wannabes.

I didnt mean to downplay the significance of the CCNA. But I do believe both my employers hold it higher than it is. I doubt they are even aware of Ciscos higher certifications other then CCIE. And I am certain they dont know about the CCENT.

Also I dont mean to sound negative. Its good that people are content with their jobs and if they are happy who am I to judge them for staying static. I just find it odd that so many people are this way (that Ive seen)

You simply cannot worry about anyone else, focus on yourself and your goals!
I never said I was worried.
The fact that many in our field dont care to certify works to my advantage.

In Red!

dave330i

bobloblaw wrote: »

Another thing - those people that **** on lesser certs? They can sod off as well. You think A+ and N+ are jokes? Okay, Tony Stark. You clearly were designing supercomputers and MANs starting out. I've been guilty of judging entry level certs. No more. You HAVE to start somewhere. If you're AT square one, don't let anyone give you slack for starting AT square one.

Had no idea skipping N+ and starting off at CCENT = genius.

dave330i

RouteMyPacket wrote: »

You are more qualified on paper? Why? Because you have a certification? What kind of experience do your co-workers have? Do you think holding some certification trumps your co worker who has 10-15yrs of experience?

And I've known people with 10-15 years experience who were clueless. It cuts both way.

About7Narwhal

The only people I ever see going for certifications are the ones who leave. They wind up with better jobs because they are in demand, or maybe because they strive to be better. Either way, people who continue to educate seem to have higher hopes than those who do not. I would consider those with certifications more successful because they put in the effort, not because they earned them. In a round about way, my view means certifications do directly relate to success but not because you have a piece of paper.

If Bob and Jane are content with the same job for 10+ years, I am happy for them. Me? I am working towards something, certifications or not, I am learning and dedicating myself so I can move onto bigger and brighter things.

JoJoCal19

I work for one of the nations largest financial firms and I can tell you it amazes me that I see the same thing here. I've worked on a few teams and with several managers and with lots of people in my 7 years with the company. I know when I was on my first team I was the only one who was pursuing any certs or degree out of twenty something employees. On my current team only one other guy was pursuing a degree/certs. He finished his MSISA and has moved up and on in the company. I'm now the only one left on the team that is pursuing certs/degree and I will be leaving soon. I know most of the people I started with on my first team (they moved all of these positions to the current location so we all started at the same time) are still there doing the same thing.

I don't have a problem with people being comfortable and/or unmotivated. It leaves the opportunities for the rest of us. What I have a problem with is those that are constantly complaining about low pay, tired of the job, tired of the company, etc, and they are doing NOTHING about it. I actually have to deal with that a lot right now. The ones making the most noise are the ones doing the least about it. Several people in that situation are close acquaintances of mine at work and I have always tried to tell them to study for some of the good mid to upper level certs out there or go to school since there are so many options out there for working professionals. They say yea that sounds good and they will look into it. They never do.

spiderjericho

I'm in the military and have three members who are about to get out. And unless, it was offered through the military, they have no interest of self studying, investing money into the materials or test fees.

They also didn't actively take advantage of Tuition Assistance. None of them is going to get out with even an AA.

But lucky for them, we work some place where they're always hiring contractors based on prior military experience.

cw3k

Maybe this is a OT question:

For those who are seeking for (more) certificates and it not related to your job, do you let your manager know you are taking them?

I am in app support and going to take the CISSP in the summer, but my job does does not deal with security directly.

Danielm7

cw3k wrote: »

Maybe this is a OT question:

For those who are seeking for (more) certificates and it not related to your job, do you let your manager know you are taking them?

I am in app support and going to take the CISSP in the summer, but my job does does not deal with security directly.

Once years ago I did tell a manager I was going to work on more IT certifications, but she was pretty clueless and didn't realize it wasn't even directly related to my job there. I only told her and asked if I have downtime was it OK if I'm studying this book so I can learn more, etc. I guess it really just depends on the work environment and your role.

NetworkVeteran

cw3k wrote: »

For those who are seeking for (more) certificates and it not related to your job, do you let your manager know you are taking them?

Of course. I even, cautiously, commit to them in my annual improvement plans. Improving your knowledge, combined with showing you can apply that knowledge on-the-job, helps when it comes to raises and bonuses! Even if a manager is skeptical as to the value of a certification, if you can apply what you learned in action, they quickly become a believer.

I'd only keep it on the down-low if the certification has no relevance to your job.

bobloblaw

dave330i wrote: »

Had no idea skipping N+ and starting off at CCENT = genius.

At no point was I talking about you or anything you've said. If you suggest going immediately to a vendor specific cert like CCENT over N+, that's actually constructive advice considering they have ~%60 market share. I was simply bashing the people that don't suggest anything whilst crapping on other people's goals.

PurpleIT

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

... What I have a problem with is those that are constantly complaining about low pay, tired of the job, tired of the company, etc, and they are doing NOTHING about it. I actually have to deal with that a lot right now. The ones making the most noise are the ones doing the least about it. Several people in that situation are close acquaintances of mine at work and I have always tried to tell them to study for some of the good mid to upper level certs out there or go to school since there are so many options out there for working professionals. They say yea that sounds good and they will look into it. They never do.

For most people, the power of laziness far outweighs most other things in life, including the desire for more money.

I have kept that that in mind as I have progressed through my career and am still surprised how often it is true. I factor it into any project I work on; it applies to the users, the developers and more often than not, the managers as well.

N2IT

For me it's broken up into 4 categories

~80% no way I am doing a certification you are crazy. More people have degrees than certifications, this is what I have seen.

~5% get certs because they are required too. Government for instance or the management team getting ITIL certified or the PMO getting Six Sigma certified.

~10% get certifications to get into the door. EG A+ > service desk > system admin > etc. It stops there though and honestly it may be closer to 15 but Ill just set it ~10

~5% want to achieve more and realize that tactifully getting certifications like the VCP or CCNA and beyond will help fill in their knowledge gaps and continue to grow themselves as IT professionals. (Cert addicts fall into here as well, but they aren't as productive IMO as the people who use the smart tactiful approach).

JMO

N2IT

@ Purple

I disagree about the power of money. Rarely and I mean RARELY have I seen certification mean more dollars. It can for sure, but usually showing up doing your job and learning more skills which help you get another position etc helps you make more money. Not the certs themselves.

I know dozens of ex co workers and friends have 0 certifications (most have a degree) doing well in IT. In the midwest most make between 65 - 110 and the age range would be 28 - 45

NetworkVeteran

@ N2IT - I'm more familiar with networking certifications, but I've seen significant bumps in income from no-certification vs. CCNA vs. CCNP. I see a much smaller bump for CCIE, but there definitely is a bump a-waiting there.

> usually showing up doing your job and learning more skills which help you get another position etc helps you make more money. Not the certs themselves.

Recruiters and employers scan for certifications when hiring. If you don't have a certification stating you can do X, the chance of being interviewed for a good job requiring the skill to do X is reduced. Also, the pay rate they will consider will often be commensurate with the experience, education, and certifications you're bringing to the table.

If you're staying at the same company, I totally agree. They tend to have plenty of time to evaluate whether a new certification actually benefited the company in a quantitative or qualitative way and compensate accordingly. Although, sometimes a certification will help encourage them to recognize a new dimension to your skills!

z3r0cool

You can label me one of those who didn't better themselves. Only now do I realize that the experience I have here at work (I'm in a support role) isn't enough to get out of here and go further. I know I'm capable of more, it's doing it's procrastination that's the killer. There's a great video series on over coming it:

https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/docs/DOC-16245

N2IT

@ NetworkV

You know that is true, networking is the curve ball in this pitch count. I think a lot of it comes down to how well respected the Cisco exams are. I've been told by system admins that Cisco exams are a better indictator than the Microsoft exam how well a tech will work out on the "Wintel" "Windows Server" team. I thought to myself how weird that is, but that's what the manager of the team told me.

I've also seen CCNA's who assume other roles and do a very good job. It could be coincidence but I don't think so.

I have always been a big supporter of the CCNA. I have seen guys come into the service desk and literally get ripped out in months because they understood networking and had the letters to back it up.

Take it for what it's worth.

RouteMyPacket

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

@ N2IT - I'm more familiar with networking certifications, but I've seen significant bumps in income from no-certification vs. CCNA vs. CCNP. I see a much smaller bump for CCIE, but there definitely is a bump a-waiting there.

> usually showing up doing your job and learning more skills which help you get another position etc helps you make more money. Not the certs themselves.

Recruiters and employers scan for certifications when hiring. If you don't have a certification stating you can do X, the chance of being interviewed for a good job requiring the skill to do X is reduced. Also, the pay rate they will consider will often be commensurate with the experience, education, and certifications you're bringing to the table.

If you're staying at the same company, I totally agree. They tend to have plenty of time to evaluate whether a new certification actually benefited the company in a quantitative or qualitative way and compensate accordingly. Although, sometimes a certification will help encourage them to recognize a new dimension to your skills!

Very good point NV in regards to potential bumps from CCNP to CCIE. Sure, it's a bump but not some $30-$40,000 bump. To be honest I have only worked around two legit CCIE's, the rest had passed the written but not the lab and were making extremely good money, passing the lab would give them the title and maybe $10k extra?

An experienced NP can easily be making well over six figures. Can't agree more with you when it comes to Cisco certs.

RouteMyPacket

At the end of the day, IT is one of the most complex industries out there. Know what YOU want out of your career and work for it, go for it.

It took me almost a decade before I started cracking the books and it has done wonders for filling in grey areas of knowledge and of course being more attractive on the market.

bobloblaw

Truth. Years ago a friend worked at a bank. They had some CCIE's come in. They told the staff something to the effect of "Do NOT ask them anything that isn't work related." They were paying them something obscene to the level of ~$200+/hr per consultant.

RouteMyPacket wrote: »

An experienced NP can easily be making well over six figures. Can't agree more with you when it comes to Cisco certs.

N2IT

Follow up

I have never personally met an NP who didn't make at least 85,000. Keep in mind I have only met 4, but 85,000+ is not bad money in the midwest. Only 2 had a degree the other 2 no degree just highschool diploma.

I honestly think Cisco certification are one of the best certifications in the world to get. They seperate you from the pack for a number of reasons.

Some of these IMO
1. Their reputation is outstanding
2. The market share they own
3. Job requirements are always seeking the NA / NP for high level high paying network positions
4. Networking requires a whole different set of skills than a lot of the other IT positions
5. Snaps into number 1. - Companies value the NA / NP a lot, so much I have seen them rob Peter to pay Paul to open up a networking position for a NA/NP.

ptilsen

I don't have any Cisco because they really don't align well with my goals (which admittedly can fluctuate), though I keep saying I'll get CCNA eventually. That being said, I do think Cisco's line of certs is really great. I feel a Cisco certification more reliably represents a certain level of skill and knowledge. The relative number of MCSEs (for example) who actually retain little to none of the MCSE material seems to be much, much higher than it is for any Cisco certification. I'm not sure if it's any one aspect of either certification line (bearing in mind MS has changed significantly since the 2003 days), but my experience has definitely been that CCNA has more meaning. Of course (and all Patricks agree here), I also find computer science degrees more reliably correlate with real ability than most certs.

instant000

At the current job, only one other guy here gets a cert whether or not he's sponsored for it by a company, as he realizes the value it has for him down the road.

As far as past jobs, it would usually be just one or two people (including myself) who would ever pursue certifications (on teams as large as 30+).

So, yeah, it is normal for people to not seek to improve themselves. This only makes it easier to stand out, as they'll be coming to you for the answers to their questions. Also, it gives you great flexibility to leave when you see better opportunities.

RouteMyPacket

The thing is ptilsen, Cisco stands apart because of how comprehensive their testing methods are. You can'y simply sit the test and through some **** memorize A B C or D type answers (this is arguable). Next thing you know you have a simulation to go through where you must login to the router/switch and either make configurations based on requirement or gather information using commands. If you don't know it, you don't know it.

I met someone at a test center last year who had just failed the Composite CCNA test for the 10th time. I asked him what his study methods were, he rattled off every **** site known to mankind. *sigh* I asked him, so if I were to interview you and sat a router and a switch down in front of you, could you configure it. His reply? "Umm..No" lol