Job - Turn Southward

darkerz

Ever since my boss/ network architect found out my age, the way I'm being approached about projects, incidents, change requests and even basic troubleshooting has become extremely annoying.

Prior, I was leading the charges, no slip ups, performing under budget - on time - very result focused and oriented. Now, these opportunities are being pulled away from me with the excuse of, I kid you not - "you're pretty young / I've been doing this as long as you've been alive / the word "whipper snapper" being used.

Suddenly, my love for the environment and job has gone to "affable" as an identifier.

What a sudden change. Over night.

Reading this forum, I *know* others have experienced the same thing. I've directly discussed this with him but the minds already set the second my magic number came about. (I'm 22, by the way, I've been working full time in IT since 16 and in a NOC environment since 18, quickly escalating upwards because hell yes)

Question is, besides firing back with "what's up dentures", direct conversation ( attempt 1 already ), what other direction should I take? In a way, my inexperience with this kind of conflict / issue is admittedly reflective of my age

Thanks!

~

thenjduke

Bring it up to HR and your manager...

jdancer

Maybe it's time to look for another opportunity which will appreciate your professional experience. Classic case of reverse ageism.

effekted

As the previous 2 posters mentioned. You can take this to HR but I'd suspect some backlash from your Manager/Network Architect with how they're treating you because of your age and simply not giving you tasks because of being young. If you can, find a different job and during your exit interview voice what FORCED you to leave the company, but do it professionally so that you don't burn any bridges...

datacomboss

Use it as motivation to finish your degree, get your certs and work on your resume, so when the right opportunity comes along you'll be ready.

networker050184

If this place isn't willing to judge you solely on your work then it is time to find somewhere that will. Age discrimination is going to be hard to prove if you do take it to HR.

I've always been the youngest guy on my team from the time I joined the military at 17 and it has never held me back. As an NCO I was usually younger than my soldiers. In the civilian world I have seen the 'wow you are younger than expected' look quite a few times when going into that first face to face interaction, but I let my past accomplishments and current hard work speak for themselves. If an employer isn't willing to take that at value then there are plenty others out there that will.

it_consultant

I can't judge your situation but this happened/happens to me on a semi-regular basis. Part of it is that older IT workers have grown callous over their career (sometimes for good reason) and since IT people are generally not terribly kind to each other, you are getting the brunt of their jokes.

I have found that drawing out some of that old experience makes them (the older IT guys) feel like you aren't just some a-hole that wants to take their job and make them irrelevant. Talk to some of the old-timers about how they used to have to refer to a map of a new hard drive's bad blocks which you had to program onto the controller before using the drive - or setting the network addresses on network cards by flipping dip switches on the cards. Hell, ask about vampire clamps.

IT for them was harder when they were coming up. If they predate google then issues we would solve in minutes are things they would bug check incessantly for days. It is fun talking about virtualization around guys who were in IT in the 80s. We go on and on about how efficient VMs make everything and they say "YUP, thats what we did with mainframes and terminal emulators". They have been in long enough to see things go full circle - a few times over.

What I am saying, in short, is you might need to toughen up a little bit. Where I work, any tiny (avoidable mistake) which is found out results in hours of intense ribbing by coworkers until someone else screws something up - then the pack of wolves moves on

blargoe

Normally I'm not one to go against the grain TOO much, but I wouldn't put up with that kind of crap at all. Based on what you have told us about your history at this place, YOU HAVE ALREADY PROVEN YOURSELF. It's not like you need to be vetted because you are a young guy, you have already shown that you are capable and have the results to back it up. I don't think I could let it go too much farther without having a frank conversation with my manager, and in the meanwhile, put out your feelers for something new.

GAngel

Bring it up to HR?
Sure if you want to come across as a whining self entitled kid follow that advice.


If your manager doesn't feel you're ready for certain projects then too bad so sad. You'll have your whole career to get hands on it doesn't matter if you started at 5. Production and labs are totally different environments and contrary to what you think you really don't have alot of experience dealing with situations where things don't go as planned. You should be thanking him for not leaving you to be the punching bag.

FloOz

I am also in a similar situation (recently turned 23). I have been the youngest at the past two jobs I have had and always feel like I don't get the "important" responsibilities because of my age. I try and not let it phase me when people mention my age, I just stick to my studies and move on.

networker050184

GAngel wrote: »

Bring it up to HR?
Sure if you want to come across as a whining self entitled kid follow that advice.


If your manager doesn't feel you're ready for certain projects then too bad so sad. You'll have your whole career to get hands on it doesn't matter if you started at 5. Production and labs are totally different environments and contrary to what you think you really don't have alot of experience dealing with situations where things don't go as planned. You should be thanking him for not leaving you to be the punching bag.

I 100% disagree with this. You have proven you can handle the work and this has only changed since you have revealed your age. This is purely discrimination. No need to 'suck it up' or be someone's whipping boy just because they happened to be born before you. Technology changes quick. Just because someone has been around a long time does not make them an expert in current business trends and especially not technology.

GAngel

Regardless of what you believe the facts still stands. This isn't some magical new situation It happens to young workers in EVERY field.

There are probably 1000 people on this board alone who could give you the exact same story and guess what we all survived and so will he. Way too much entitlement. All he has to do is keep doing what he's doing and he'll be fine. If he's not happy quit and find a job that will allow him work the way he prefers. Life is pretty simple at 22 no need to complicate things.

Being good at your job isn't even half of what it takes to be a success in a corp environment.

networker050184

I agree that someone has to learn by doing. No problem with that. But that is not what the OP is describing. Treating someone different once you find out their age? Not cool. Time to find a new job. What else are they going to discriminate on next? Religion?

I will only work in an environment that judges people on their performance, not some good 'ole boys club.

MSP-IT

GAngel wrote: »

Regardless of what you believe the facts still stands. This isn't some magical new situation It happens to young workers in EVERY field.

There are probably 1000 people on this board alone who could give you the exact same story and guess what we all survived and so will he. Way too much entitlement. All he has to do is keep doing what he's doing and he'll be fine. If he's not happy quit and find a job that will allow him work the way he prefers. Life is pretty simple at 22 no need to complicate things.

Being good at your job isn't even half of what it takes to be a success in a corp environment.

I feel like you're generalizing quite a bit. Although I don't have quite the responsibilities that come along with the title that darkerz
is in, I'm in quite a similar position at age 21. I'm a bit perturbed by your "simple life" comment. I'm not going to assume that your life is any less complicated than mine, but what, dare I ask, makes your life that much more challenging?

GAngel

I'm not saying it's right but that it happens and quite often and we're probably all guilty of it at times ourselves. I've always been the youngest I only speak from my experience now that i've been the boss a few years 22 is nothing in tech terms he's got 40 years to get his hands on the latest and greatest. His work will speak for itself and he'll land even more responsibilities than before If it's not happening there will be another manager who will be glad to bring him in.

Do good work get more responsibilites. Just like every job you have to eat the S%&t at the bottom there is no magical accelerator if your name isn't on the company letterhead.

Danielm7

Maybe "simple life" means his life was more simple at 22, I know mine sure was.

As for the ageism issue, I've dealt with it when I was younger but I didn't lose out on opportunity, just had to deal with comments about how I was so young. The funny part was that I was 26, it wasn't like I was 16 and asking to run the company. If you really feel like your job responsibilities and opportunities have changes since they found out your age I'd probably start looking elsewhere too.

networker050184

So just because it happens people should just take it? I don't know about you man, but that is not how I approach my career.

I disagree there is no magic accelerator. It might not be magic, but it is hard work, dedication and the want for greater things. I've left plenty older and more experienced people in the dust in my career. I never have and never will eat anything from anyone because it happens to others. That is a horrible outlook to have on your career and life in general in my opinion.

Cpl.Klinger

GAngel wrote: »

I'm not saying it's right

Then if it's not right, then why should he stand for it? At the time people said racism may not have been right, but it happened often and so on. If it's not right it's not right.

GAngel wrote: »

His work will speak for itself and he'll land even more responsibilities than before If it's not happening there will be another manager who will be glad to bring him in.

According to OP, his work has already spoken for itself. He was leading projects that were meeting/beating expectations, and his performance was a non-issue. Once his superior discovered his age, he was no longer put on projects of similar responsibility. That, my friend, is ageism. His age was no issue previously in his performance, but when it is discovered, it affects his job environment.

GAngel wrote: »

Do good work get more responsibilites. Just like every job you have to eat the S%&t at the bottom

I don't know where you have worked, but I haven't always had to eat the s%&t at the bottom. Where I am currently, I was not forced to be in any demeaning type of situation, yet, I still proved my worth to my boss and his superiors, and now I am a leader to others in my area. No s%&t eating required, only hard work and performance and results driven action.

As for OP: find a new place, get out of the current job, and document EVERYTHING that happens between now and then. Conversations held with the superior in question, who witnessed them, results of past and present projects. Everything. Even if you think it's not important, it is. When you leave, and are asked why, simply slide a copy of everything across the desk and tell them that the information within shall tell the story. And that they might want to read it, since it's going to the labor board.

darkerz

UPDATE:

I had a frank discussion with my manager / lead and he told me because of my age it's difficult to hand off these projects. I brought up a counter point that previously I was doing all of this work and doing it well - the issue isn't my performance it's that someone my age should be doing more ticket, incident, escalation and customer facing work - not project, design or upgrade work - plain and simple.

I'm disliking this because I want to be at least 1-3 years in before making a career move. On the plus side, if I do decide to "ensure" this (at least until my 401k isn't Vested and is all mine), the fire-fueled passion to cert up and educate up is emerging.

Fun times. If anyone has any ideas on the Seattle Area market for someone who loves and breathes CCNP level projects, technologies and tickets, I'd be happy to give an impression.

networker050184

I'd start hitting up the job boards now. No way I'd work for a person like that. Good luck!

Danielm7

darkerz wrote: »

UPDATE:

I had a frank discussion with my manager / lead and he told me because of my age it's difficult to hand off these projects. I brought up a counter point that previously I was doing all of this work and doing it well - the issue isn't my performance it's that someone my age should be doing more ticket, incident, escalation and customer facing work - not project, design or upgrade work - plain and simple.

I'd document that in every and any way you can. I'm not a lawyer but that sounds completely illegal.

cruwl

I've generally been the youngest admin/tech on most of my teams. Even now I'm the youngest. I've never been treated like that, and I wouldn't stand for it. All of my past Managers recognized my talent and skill, and even more so my hunger to be on projects, learn, and gain experiance ect.

A good manager/lead will also be a mentor and recognize your ability and desire, if they don't GTFO.

ptilsen

IANAL either, but from the research I've done it's completely legal in almost every state. Federal law essentially prevents discrimination against the old, not the young at all. It is illegal in MN, but MN is the exception and not the rule. Despite the law, it is very difficult to prove age discrimination, and you need to understand it can be argued as non-discriminatory if something about your age could affect your ability to do your jobs. (e.g., "He's not educated enough" or "He can't rent a car in this state.")

Now if WA has a statute and you want to go that route, okay, but honestly I wouldn't bother. Your outcome will be best if you simply move onto a job at which value is perceived based on results, not on age. You may face perception issues well into your late 20s, but nothing so bad it should seriously affect your career like this.

As far as 401(k) vesting and not having been at the job long, those are mediocre reasons to stay. A short period at one job can be explained away pretty easily. You would have to make a habit of it for it to be a problem. I encourage you to keep saving for retirement (I started into a 401(k) at 21, IIRC), but what you'll lose now can easily be made up for with a higher salary or even just the better career outcome you'll have. Whatever you'd be giving up by changing jobs will be insignificant in and of itself. I'd be surprised if you didn't get a modest pay raise from switching anyway.

blargoe

I agree with not letting the vesting of the 401(k) match factor too strongly in your decision. You can't have been there long enough to be losing much.

Now that you know where he stands, and he knows where you stand, go find another job. He probably already figures you are looking by now, anyway.

blargoe

I would also say, as young as you are, don't limit yourself to a permanent, W-2 employee type of situation.

NetworkVeteran

I had a frank discussion with my manager / lead and he told me because of my age it's difficult to hand off these projects. I brought up a counter point that previously I was doing all of this work and doing it well - the issue isn't my performance it's that someone my age should be doing more ticket, incident, escalation and customer facing work - not project, design or upgrade work - plain and simple.

Alerting HR or upper-management is doomed to failure unless they already are looking for excuses to nix your boss, and the law is only sympthetic to a few limited forms of discrimintation. Employment is at will in most states and your boss can fire you or pass you by for, among other things, smoking in your car on your lunch break. That ability's stood up to legal scrutiny.

I'm with Networker when he says to move on if possible. Not taking a risk on handing you projects because of your inexperience makes sense. To take that risk, see you excel multiple times, then yank it back only because of your age is ridiculous.

More importantly, there are many employers out there who operate differently.

lilwayne

Darkerz that is so not cool of your company also what will they do about your currently salary? Also is 75k plus ur bonuses considered average or above average in seattle and do you feel like your not learning anything there and doing helpdesk work even though you were hired as a engineer if so speak to hr if you job hop what will you say? Also leaving in less than a year does not look good I have issues with my job but im trying to survive a year

darkerz

lilwayne wrote: »

Darkerz that is so not cool of your company also what will they do about your currently salary? Also is 75k plus ur bonuses considered average or above average in seattle and do you feel like your not learning anything there and doing helpdesk work even though you were hired as a engineer if so speak to hr if you job hop what will you say? Also leaving in less than a year does not look good I have issues with my job but im trying to survive a year

That's my thought to.

Also, for the Seattle area, 90k / year is the Median for a Network Engineer.

I'll sleep on it, some tough decisions ahead.

minit

Hey Darkerz,

Just thought I'd throw my .02 in. You're obviously a bright young guy, with a lot of drive. Whatever you decide my advice would be to tread lightly. You have a long successful career ahead of you, don't start it out by ruffling too many feathers. Going to HR, and or do anything to circumvent your supervisors authority in this case would be a terrible idea. Do not make a habit of making enemies. If your current employer is not offering you what you want in terms of growth say thank you, and move on to a better opportunity.

This may sound like a cliche but it is true. Success is not a destination, it is not a finish line. Continually seek out what you are passionate about, and find people that enable you to engage in what you love. Success is truly defined by enjoying the journey. Most people miss this while chasing salary, power, and responsibility.

I wish you the best of luck.
Mike

Polynomial

minit wrote: »

Hey Darkerz,

Just thought I'd throw my .02 in. You're obviously a bright young guy, with a lot of drive. Whatever you decide my advice would be to tread lightly. You have a long successful career ahead of you, don't start it out by ruffling too many feathers. Going to HR, and or do anything to circumvent your supervisors authority in this case would be a terrible idea. Do not make a habit of making enemies. If your current employer is not offering you what you want in terms of growth say thank you, and move on to a better opportunity.

This may sound like a cliche but it is true. Success is not a destination, it is not a finish line. Continually seek out what you are passionate about, and find people that enable you to engage in what you love. Success is truly defined by enjoying the journey. Most people miss this while chasing salary, power, and responsibility.

I wish you the best of luck.
Mike

100 times this. Its quite easy to think far too highly of yourself as a young 20something. Take it from me.

There's a concept of acknowledging what you don't know what you don't know. Trying to show off is not the way to do it in IT.

About7Narwhal

I think most of the people in this thread have completely missed the point here. If the OP came into this job and had been treated this way the entire time, he/she likely wouldn't have any complaints. The issue here is that he has consistently been given projects up until they determined his/her age. Now the OP is being treated like a kid and losing the growth opportunities that were previously available.

To me, it sounds like poor management. Where I work now I have people who treat me like a kid and I have other departments who throw me projects because they want me on their team. The ones who recognize ability will treat you like a human instead of a liability. If you cannot go to HR and cannot resolve the issue internally, I would consider moving on. In my experience, the logic is unlikely to change.