True or False: Do you need an advanced degree to pursue a career in IT?

VAHokie56

the_Grinch wrote: »

In the US you will need a four year degree. The pool of jobs where just experience and an associates will get you in the door is drying up.

Sorry Grinch but this is simply not true. Just use a sample audience of people on this board and read the post.

gbadman

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

If networking became an undesirable job tomorrow, I could still switch to software development, and only have my pay cut to $130k or so, enough to survive on.)

Your point about the variety of roles available is a fair one. However, I had to do a double-take on this addition.
Really? Network engineering salaries must be in a different universe in the US. I would imagine that only the top tier of network architects would expect to command the equivalent of $130k in the UK.
Given the things you've previously mentioned about your role, I will allow that you are in a job that could pass in the hotshot architect category. And allowing for what I already knew about how salaries are higher in the US, $130k or above makes sense for you.
However, the idea that you could move into a software development role, without having any prior development expertise, and command $130k seems to me pure fantasy, regardless of whether you're in the US, the UK or on the moon. In the same way as an expert software developer would be dreaming if she thought she could "switch" to a network engineering role and be earning $130k.

wintermute000

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

I stated no such thing. I stated that experience, education, and certifications are all important. In fact, each of the CCIEs on my team actually has a CS/EE degree as well. They're compensated much better than someone with a CCIE alone.

Of course. But they don't know enough to do the job one level up, which is why they're doing the job they're doing. I remember a sign in school, "Everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten." It's easy to imagine that what we know is all that one really needs to know. I'm always excited to run into 30-year veterans who remind me that there's further to go.

This week I plan to make a couple technical presentations with large sums of money on-the-line. My degree trained me to make technical presentations in front of many people, whereas a CCIE certification does not. The executives I will be chatting with are also college-educated. Having intermediate certifications plus a degree better prepared me than someone with a CCIE and no degree. Are there situations where the opposite is true? Of course, which is why my team mostly consists of CCIEs! I find the advantage of the degree to be at its max when dealing with new technologies, people, processes, or projects.

First, I entirely agree with gbadman's point above....
Secondly, re: you making presentations and speaking with the board, I can't believe you're using that to plug a comp sci degree!!! Those who can shmooze with management/customers and are good at public speaking are of course advantaged but ANY university degree helps with that to some extent.

In fact if you're plugging soft skills like presentation, customer relations/management/negotiation, writing skills etc. then there are countless degrees that will hone those skills better than comp sci. In fact I'll bet you dollars to donuts I did a LOT more research/essay writing and did a lot more debating/public speaking as part of political science than a comp sci degree. Which is why I'm a bit confused at how you're using that as an example. Plenty of people I know who can do both, who didn't do comp sci (... like, I dunno, every sales guy I know lol).

You don't need a comp sci degree to sell a proposal to a customer, you need a half decent proposal and then the ability to sell it, which usually also involves building up your relationships with the client in the first place, whether its being technically buddy buddy with their senior guys or buttering up the management. Having been customer facing my entire career, I'm well aware of the communications/sales aspect to any engineer, esp as you get more senior and move into the design/presales space (which I am in as well).

So yes, having those customer/soft skills will mean you're the engineer that rises beyond the pack, but that has NOTHING to do with a comp sci degree. Either you got it or you don't, and ANY degree will help with those skills.

At the end of the day I can see you're fixed in your opinion so I suppose we can agree to disagree, I guess that's why these forums are here, so we can put forth our views and readers/OP can decide for themselves.

VAHokie56

gbadman wrote: »

Your point about the variety of roles available is a fair one. However, I had to do a double-take on this addition.
Really? Network engineering salaries must be in a different universe in the US. I would imagine that only the top tier of network architects would expect to command the equivalent of $130k in the UK.
Given the things you've previously mentioned about your role, I will allow that you are in a job that could pass in the hotshot architect category. And allowing for what I already knew about how salaries are higher in the US, $130k or above makes sense for you.
However, the idea that you could move into a software development role, without having any prior development expertise, and command $130k seems to me pure fantasy, regardless of whether you're in the US, the UK or on the moon. In the same way as an expert software developer would be dreaming if she thought she could "switch" to a network engineering role and be earning $130k.

130K + for a Sr.net engineer is not outlandish by any means...you can expect way more in my area if your beast in the virtual realm ( 1kv and UCS)

NetworkVeteran

gbadman wrote:

I would imagine that only the top tier of network architects would expect to command the equivalent of $130k in the UK. In the same way as an expert software developer would be dreaming if she thought she could "switch" to a network engineering role and be earning $130k.

That's what I was offered to switch to software development, so there's no fantasizing going on here. My pay is above that but not out-of-the-ordinary for a senior network engineer with similar experience/education/certifications/passion. I wouldn't say I have zero experience in programming. Like many with my background, I've found ways to leverage the programming skills I gained in college throughout my career. I have seen the reverse transition, too, from software development or testing to network engineering.

wintermute wrote:

Those who can shmooze with management/customers and are good at public speaking are of course advantaged but ANY university degree helps with that to some extent.

You asked, "how does your CompSci degree make you a better routing or switching engineer than a CCIE for example?", and I gave an example where my background is superior, and noted there are cases where the opposite is true. If you're asking how someone with a CS/EE degree can outperform someone with a different four-year degree, I'd point out that it's easier to find effective ways to leverage the knowledge from core CS or EE classes (databases, networking, discrete math, security, algorithms, etc.) in a senior network engineer role than it is to leverage a knowledge of landscape architecture, photography, or hospitality management.

I agree that any degree, especially a B.S. degree, is any advantage over no degree.

At the end of the day I can see you're fixed in your opinion so I suppose we can agree to disagree

At the end of the day, my last three roles have required or strongly preferred a CS/EE degree and paid extra for it.. so yes, I'm quite adamant that my degree is not "worthless" or "irrelevant". A CS/EE degree is quite a rewarding path.

May the OP find a path they enjoy that takes them where they want to go!

networker050184

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

At the end of the day, my last three roles have required or strongly preferred a CS/EE degree and paid extra for it.. so yes, I'm quite adamant that my degree is not "worthless" or "irrelevant".

You are taking your specific career path and trying to lay it over the entire industry which just doesn't work. There are plenty of people in our industry that are at your level or higher with not a lick of formal education and there are people with masters degrees sitting on the help desk. It's all about how you apply what you have.

At the end of the day you just want to give yourself the best opportunity to succeed. The more qualifications you can bring to the table the better.

pert

VAHokie56 wrote: »

Sorry Grinch but this is simply not true. Just use a sample audience of people on this board and read the post.

I actually think Grinch is right in that entry level jobs that don't require a degree are drying up. I HAVE seen that. While you can trump that with experience, how you going to do that if you don't have your foot in the door?

powerfool

Just to be clear... a BS is more advanced than an AS... but a BS is not an advanced degree. Advanced degrees are beyond undergraduate level.

If you are looking to maintain marketability and opportunities for career advancement, I would not discount furthering your education at any point. That being said, do not believe for a second that you can get a degree and ignore your workmanship, ingenuity, and entrepreneurship; you must provide value to your employers and that is what gives you everything. Education shows that you take yourself and your professional development seriously... the better you do there will certainly be a benefit. However, if you cannot look at a particular environment and keep it running, you won't be marketable.... and if you can't take that same environment and improve upon it continuously, you won't advance.

wintermute000

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

I agree that any degree, especially a B.S. degree, is any advantage over no degree.At the end of the day, my last three roles have required or strongly preferred a CS/EE degree and paid extra for it.. so yes, I'm quite adamant that my degree is not "worthless" or "irrelevant". A CS/EE degree is quite a rewarding path.

May the OP find a path they enjoy that takes them where they want to go!

But the OP wasn't asking whether a degree is useful or 'worthless' or 'irrelevant'. He was asking whether it was NEEDED. You're not answering the same question

NetworkVeteran

wintermute000 wrote: »

But the OP wasn't asking whether a degree is useful or 'worthless' or 'irrelevant'. He was asking whether it was NEEDED. You're not answering the same question

I addressed their question way back in post #2 (and #16). To recap, "No, it's not necessary!" but "Gee, it helps!".

You asserted "5+ years after graduation) whatever you learnt in uni is not relevant and everybody knows it", etc. Since this is false in my experience, and might mislead the OP or others making similar decisions, I felt obligated to reply.

dave330i

gbadman wrote: »

However, the idea that you could move into a software development role, without having any prior development expertise, and command $130k seems to me pure fantasy, regardless of whether you're in the US, the UK or on the moon. In the same way as an expert software developer would be dreaming if she thought she could "switch" to a network engineering role and be earning $130k.

I've switched from mechanical engineering to virtualization engineer and got my salary back up to 6 figures in 1.5 years. Not saying it's easy, but it can be done.

dave330i

wintermute000 wrote: »

At that stage (5+ years after graduation) whatever you learnt in uni is not relevant and everybody knows it.

What kind of higher education did you get?

pert

dave330i wrote: »

What kind of higher education did you get?

Honestly, I'd be more interested in what kind of education you got if you think its relevant to your day to day duties. I NEEDED to get an associates to get my foot in the door, but I hold absolutely no belief that anything I learned there was particularly valuable. Even the stuff that was valuable, was not AS valuable as the other things I could have been learning.

kriscamaro68

pert wrote: »

Honestly, I'd be more interested in what kind of education you got if you think its relevant to your day to day duties. I NEEDED to get an associates to get my foot in the door, but I hold absolutely no belief that anything I learned there was particularly valuable. Even the stuff that was valuable, was not AS valuable as the other things I could have been learning.

I don't think he is referring to the technical side of things when he says that. The so called knowledge you gain from the technical side of a degree is useless and outdated aside from a CS degree. However understanding how to write tech docs or present information that could make or break your IT department getting the equipment that it needs is something college can help with. Understanding how to get your ideas and design across to people who have no technical ability is an art in and of itself. Now I am not saying that a degree is required to do this but it defiantly helps.

pert

kriscamaro68 wrote: »

I don't think he is referring to the technical side of things when he says that. The so called knowledge you gain from the technical side of a degree is useless and outdated aside from a CS degree. However understanding how to write tech docs or present information that could make or break your IT department getting the equipment that it needs is something college can help with. Understanding how to get your ideas and design across to people who have no technical ability is an art in and of itself. Now I am not saying that a degree is required to do this but it defiantly helps.

I wish it did help with that stuff, that would have been useful. Maybe your schools tought people how to do this well, not mine.

ptilsen

kriscamaro68 wrote: »

The so called knowledge you gain from the technical side of a degree is useless and outdated aside from a CS degree.

I don't agree with this even for non-CS/EE IT degrees. I'm still using skills and knowledge I learned nearly ten years ago. I'm learning things in my CS nowdegree that I'm using today and will for the foreseeable future.

Anyone who thinks their degree knowledge is useless after a few years either didn't pay attention, hasn't found a good job, or got a horrible degree.

dave330i

pert wrote: »

Honestly, I'd be more interested in what kind of education you got if you think its relevant to your day to day duties. I NEEDED to get an associates to get my foot in the door, but I hold absolutely no belief that anything I learned there was particularly valuable. Even the stuff that was valuable, was not AS valuable as the other things I could have been learning.

In my 14 years as a mechanical engineer I've use:

• Statics - All the time
• Dynamics - Stuff I designed generally didn't move, so not as much
• Strength of Material - All the time
• Thermal Dynamics - Some
• Fluid Dynamics - very little
• Computer Programing - not much. Helps with excel from time to time.
• Quality Function Deployment - regularly
• Technical writing - all the time
• Error analysis - regularly

Stuff that translate to virtualization engineer are the last 4 bullets.

wickedpink88

wintermute000 wrote: »

Can't speak for dev or R&D for example, but in infrastructure engineering, once you have experience and certs its all that matters - up to a point.

After that, yes degrees are highly beneficial for breaking past the management ceiling, but conversely, it then becomes 'any degree' (BA or better) rather than only a Comp Sci/IT. At that stage (5+ years after graduation) whatever you learnt in uni is not relevant and everybody knows it. Its more the fact that having a degree demonstrates your academic and learning capability. So yes it can be a tick box that presents a barrier to those without one, but its not because its not a comp sci degree. And the barrier only really presents itself once you're mid level and looking to progress past that.

Most mgrs I've had do have degrees, but only a minority came up the strict Comp Sci/IT path, most had degrees in something else (even liberal arts like myself). In fact at management level something like an MBA is far more useful and highly regarded than comp sci.

Having said all that if I was in your shoes I'd go all the way and at least get a Bachelors, there's no point just doing an associate. Either get a BA or go hard on your mid level certs then come back to do your BA part time later - Purely for purposes of landing your first network admin job, Cisco/MS/Vmware stripes are FAR MORE USEFUL and FAR MORE RELEVANT than a smattering of background knowledge in fuzzy topics you won't apply (like lifecycle mgt, capacity planning etc.) at a junior level and a smattering of programming knowledge (which you'll never use in network admin except for scripting, and if you're any good you can learn it yourself whether bash or powershell etc.).

I investigated the option of going back to get a BA in Comp Sci last year and not a single person I asked recommended it including all my managers, HR, past managers, people I know in management positions, peers (other network engineers). They all said CCIE if I want to stay technical, or MBA then go into management.

What your stating is almost exactly what he was saying which I think I didn't communicate very well. He didn't tell me I should not get a Bachelors AT ALL but that if I wanted to work within my desired field-Network administration- that my Bachelors need not necessarily be in CS. he said to quote "You could have a damn BA in art history all they care to see if that you have experience/certifications and a BA at all especially if you want a management position. " And that is the statement that I am calling into question. Maybe I just should have quoted him right off the bat :P

ptilsen

wickedpink88 wrote: »

"You could have a damn BA in art history all they care to see if that you have experience/certifications and a BA at all especially if you want a management position. " And that is the statement that I am calling into question. Maybe I just should have quoted him right off the bat :P

It really doesn't change the answer much, to me. You could do without one at all, and you could do with a BA in anything over a CS. Nothing is needed, but a CS degree can do a lot more than an art degree, which will do something more than no degree.

wickedpink88

although it seems that the main consensus is "it depends" lol

wickedpink88

ptilsen wrote: »

It really doesn't change the answer much, to me. You could do without one at all, and you could do with a BA in anything over a CS. Nothing is needed, but a CS degree can do a lot more than an art degree, which will do something more than no degree.

Everyone's been very helpful is there anyone here who has done network administration that can give me some personal opinions of it? do you like your job? Do you enjoy the pay? how is your home time? things like that

pcgizzmo

wickedpink88 wrote: »

Everyone's been very helpful is there anyone here who has done network administration that can give me some personal opinions of it? do you like your job? Do you enjoy the pay? how is your home time? things like that

I am a network admin and have been for the last 13 years. Before that I was a technical/pre-sales person for a consulting company. I have zero college.(Well nothing that counts) I make 90k + (depending on side jobs)

I've wondered how hard it would be now days for me to get a job with another company. I've let my certs expire (working on new ones) and don't have the degree in a down job market.

That being said I don't think a degree really plays into IT it's like anything else an employer is looking for it's a check box and if you have one it gets you a little further down the path to a job if that is what they require. If you don't have one and they will take work experience in lieu of a degree then it's good to have that.

To me the biggest part of getting any job is experience of course if it's not entry level and then (no one mentions this) its personality. Do you mesh with the ones that are interviewing you? If someone likes you sometimes that is all it takes even if someone else is more qualified. Be a likeable person and sell yourself and you can go a long way.

dontstop

A Degree is a poor measure of ones abilities, I know many people who have no Degree but would destroy those with a B.A. or even a Masters, But for some reason it seems that people (see: HR, Recruiters, CTO/CIO's) think that it's the Bees knees. If you really understand what a Degree is postured for, you will realize that most are geared towards Research and Academia and do not attempt to truly prepare one for the job market (very much the case in I.T.), They are more geared towards keeping the students back for further research in the hope of gaining grants and funding through research and research papers (The Universities core Business).

The problem with the attitude about not wanting a Degree, is similar to that of a Professional Bodybuilder not wanting to use steroids. Fight it as you may, but in the end you will have to work much harder and ultimately find that it's either the only way to "play the game" or be too past your prime to actually start to do so. Recruiters find it much easier to rank two candidates against each other, when one has that extra bit of paper. That candidate might be totally the wrong person or not even as well rounded, but he's played the game to the current rules. With the large number of B.A.'s coming out of Universities today in I.T, I'm predicting that in the next few years that having a Masters will be the next level that you need to attain to correctly "play the game" and be distinguished from the rest of the crowd, Kind of like a CCNA vs. CCNP. Even though a Degree really has very little real world relevance in I.T. compared to say Nursing/Doctor/Lawyer etc.

A take away from this is you just have to play the game, this means getting everything they ask for and not trying to reason out of existence why you should attain a Degree. It's a similar vein to arguing with a company that you don't need a CCNA/CCNP to be a Network Engineer, I'm sure there are many who have done so but for many others, It's just easier to go through the motions than battle all the time.

With 1 year of experience I was making $72-82k as a System Admin (with a Degree, nothing else.)

paul78

wickedpink88 wrote: »

it seems that the main consensus is "it depends"

Sounds like you just found the right answer

I usually refrain from commenting in these threads because it's so subjective and because you are so early in your career development. My perceptions from 25 years ago are not likely to be relevant.

But I've been reading the various contributions with interest over the past few days.

I'm guessing you probably have another 40 years left to develop your career - so take your time and find what you like to do 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the next 40 years. It sounds like you are interested in some aspect of Information Technology and you are working on a CS degree. That sounds like a wonderful place to start. And regardless of the usefulness or relevance of having a degree - please do yourself a favour and finish it if you can afford to. I never had the opportunity to finish my own degree.

wickedpink88 wrote: »

is there anyone here who has done network administration that can give me some personal opinions of it? do you like your job? Do you enjoy the pay? how is your home time? things like that

It's good to poll and research. Once you actually graduate and get your first job, hopefully you can a better idea of what aspects of IT you may enjoy.

While I've never been a network engineer, I have managed network admin and network operations teams. I like all things IT related and I know many network admins and engineers that love what they do. But I also know many software engineers, system admins, etc who also love what they do. It really depends on what you find interesting.

Do I like my job? Sometimes, sometimes not. It's a bit harder for me to change employers. But I like my career.

Do I enjoy my pay? Hmmm - I don't think I know anyone that doesn't like getting paid . If you know people like that, let me know so I can hire them I'm a senior-ranking manager so I'm very well compensated.

NetworkVeteran

wickedpink88 wrote: »

Everyone's been very helpful is there anyone here who has done network administration that can give me some personal opinions of it? do you like your job? Do you enjoy the pay? how is your home time? things like that

I've seen and had a hand in some of the world's most amazing networks. I love, love, love my job. A bit over a year ago it was my dream to do what I do now. It shows in my output and I am very well-compensated as a senior network engineer. I enjoy the technical and sales and have no intention to ever be a manager. My home life? It's a priority and not something I'm willing to sacrifice. I played a gunfighter and a big bad wolf tonight.. but now that the little ones are tucked in, it's time to play with a work project I'm quite excited about. I suppose I work late once a week, and if I liked networking less, that might bother me.

PS - To clarify, I enjoy my job, but I don't work for free! I'm due some compensation for tonight. Not specifically for working the extra hours, but rather for completing the project which I expect to as a result.