Community college vs. ITT Tech/DeVry

Hey folks,

I'm in the infant stages of starting a pursuit somewhere in IT. Obviously going to a community college for Certification would both expedite the process, and save me several thousand from a school like ITT Tech/DeVry for an AD/BD.

But my question is, would it serve me better to attend an ITT Tech/DeVry over a community college? Or do I stand the same chances landing a job going to a CC?

Any help would be appreciated.

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Comments

neo9006

True, that is the reason I wouldn't go there I guess from my standpoint. I understand they do cater to the working person, but I do not want to pay 80k for a degree, I don't think I even paid that much for all my total college credit and I probably have enough for at least a masters degree. I have too many hours wish I would have put all my hours to good use and figured things a little better ages ago. I pay like 626 for 3 hours credit at the school I go too, and not sure what the grad rate where I go is. I hope you finish devils and that is something no one can take away from you. I know that from my associate, good luck and keep your head up.

ptilsen

devils_haircut wrote: »

DeVry will take in anyone that can foot the bill (almost anyone...I believe the acceptance rate is 93%, while the graduation rate is closer to 30-35%). But they are a private, for-profit institution, so I don't blame them for that. Plenty of people get suckered in, pay $550+ per credit hour here, then realize they aren't college material and drop out. But I can honestly say that now that I've reached 300 and 400 level classes, the only people remaining are the ones that actually care about their education.

And all of this is why I would definitely give consideration to a DeVry grad, but would not normally advise anyone to consider DeVry. Sure, if someone is footing the bill and you have no reason to care, then maybe there are valid reasons (the ones you gave) to consider it.

srabiee

I had a friend years ago that had a degree from DeVry and he said people used to laugh and/or scoff at him when he told them where he went to school. Friends, family, co-workers, potential employers, you name it. He said he got to the point where he was embarrassed to mention where he obtained his degree, and dreaded having topic brought up.

SteveLord

I know 2 people from the Guard that went to ITT. A guy and his brother. Advised him against it. Said he didn't care as the military was paying for it. Had all these dreams of he and his brother starting a business, making money, etc etc. That was in 2009.

Today, the guy is now studying IT at a community college (my original advice) and does some kind of construction work. His brother argued with me about ITT, put them on a high pedestal and even his FB buddies chimed in. Even to go so far as to accuse me of being too poor to go to ITT. Huh?. Anyway h created his own computer repair company.........which is now no longer in existence. Not sure if it did any business at all. Apparently was jobless afterward and looking for people to rent him and his dogs a place to stay or if he could fix computers for anyone for $65/hr. His new career path? Cosmetology. I honestly have no sympathy because he and his friends were real turds when we had that chat about ITT.

ptilsen

srabiee wrote: »

I had a friend years ago that had a degree from DeVry and he said people used to laugh and/or scoff at him when he told them where he went to school. Friends, family, co-workers, potential employers, you name it. He said he got to the point where he was embarrassed to mention where he obtained his degree, and dreaded having topic brought up.

I didn't think it was quite that bad. However, I don't like to bring up my ITT degree for more or less this reason. I haven't had reactions quite that negative to it, but I don't feel it's done anything for me professionally.

blargoe

I can't think of even one scenario where I would recommend going to ITT or Devry. Depending on where you live, you will get the same content, maybe better, at the local community college for 5x less money, and most of the credits should transfer to a university if you are smart about it.

emerald_octane

I would never scoff/laugh at ITT/DeVry grads, but i'm not elitist. I've had people laugh at WGU but these were mostly people with no degree, who weren't going to college period.

Slithy

networkjutsu wrote: »

I'll leave you guys with this article I read last week. It may change what people think or may not but it shouldn't be where you got your college degree from or what degree it is but should be based on what you can offer. Bill Gates And His Foundation: Employers Should Focus On Skills, NOT College Degrees

I really wish people had embraced systems closer to this like 50 years ago(before the bubble got as bad as it is). While i can understand the appeal of hiring college graduates, the system has caused all sorts of problems. The old trusted-name, worthy universities are getting more expensive for the wrong reasons(tacking on non-education related perks to attract candidates). The fact that demand is so high makes them harder to get into, and people not capable of it can end of overpaying at less picky institutions(even worse if they don't have what it takes and let society/recruiters trick them into believing they do - resulting in the early level dropouts and meaningless debt). Then you factor in the fact that employers really want people with social skills/industry skills even though degrees are often requirements. Slap the national college debt in and you're looking at one heck of a mess.

kohr-ah

I went to the local community college out here in Illinois (which is actually cool because they are becoming a 4 year community college). Anywho, I actually learned something neat from our Cisco teacher that was there. He said that he teaches during the day at IIT in Chicago (An expensive technical college) and at night teaches out here. That we get the same exact class they do there we just have a different name on our diploma when we graduate.

Where I work now there are a lot of Devry graduates that work with us and most are happy with their experience they just wish they paid less otherwise I have heard no complaints from them.

I go back once a year and talk to people taking Computer Internetworking Technologies degree at that community college and I always tell them that "In IT a degree shows that you are dedicated to something. It shows that you are willing to take the time in your life to dedicate to complete something. While the certifications shows that you took the time to learn the skills to pass the test showing you can perform the work".

networkjutsu

The $80K degree mentioned here is probably true if you take less than 7 credit hours per session, if I remember correctly. The rate is around $5xx/credit hour if you take less than 7 credits and if you take over than that, then you pay around $3XX/credit hour, IIRC. I browsed at DePaul University and saw around $33K/year or $5XX/credit hour for part time students (1-11 credits). That's over $100K for the degree. I would've paid around $60-80K if I went with DePaul since they won't credit a lot of my college credits while DeVry gave me over 60 credits for previous college work. To me, that's a no brainer. Anyone who think it's worth over $50K of debt for me to have better name on my resume is crazy! Especially, if I've done quite alright with my career so far.

jeremywatts2005

I thought I would jump in on this one. I have worked as a Dean at ITT Tech and in for profit education. I am currently working in field. I will say that ITT Tech and Devry are not diploma mills. A diploma mill is one in which you go and pay money and receive a degree based entirely on your experience or they just hand you one.

ITT Tech while not regionally accredited does have advantages. Regional accreditation like national accreditation does not guarantee you any job or career. Nationally accreditation is also recognized by the department of education and accrediting boards like ACICS.

Some ACICS schools are better than other same goes for regionally accredited schools. ACICS schools have a primary mission and that is career training. I will say that ITT Tech we were held to a much higher standard than many regionally accredited colleges. The amount of paperwork to prove student outcomes was very high.

We also had to prove in field career placement. 25% or higher of the material you learned you had to be using directly in the field you are working. That is validated by auditors at ACICS and internally. Depending on the ITT Tech or Devry you go to will determine how rigorous your training will be. Some schools have stronger IT/Infosec programs than others. I would ask to sit in on a class or two to get a feel for the level of the instructors. I also allowed new students to come into class during the quarter to showcase the talent.

Most every instructor had a Masters degree in field and multiple certifications relating to the classes they were teaching. Many communities colleges had more Bachelors degree non certified instructors, I know I recruited talent and I almost never found it in the community college. I found one out of 25 or 30, but that was it. ITT Tech and Devry are very hands on and the lab work is a key component to schools. ITT Tech has a regular schedule that they maintain for labs and the CISCO equipment and other hardware have to be rotated with the curriculum updates to stay relevant. In two years I updated one time on the CISCO equipment for instance.

As for rigor have an instructor like me who teaches very hands on and I will work your butt off in lab and in the classroom. 4.5 hours of building out networks utilizing VM's, CISCO equipment and running cabling has the tendency to do that. I would have 20 students and 35 PC's that needed to be setup. They were in teams and assigned task to complete each night. Be prepared to do some hands on work.

When I was an IT chair back in the day my school was almost 65% of the campus and we had a massive IT/Infosec program and an infield placement rate of 85% or higher of grads or soon to be grads. We are not talking about minimum wage jobs either more in line with 45K or more with an AAS. Most of the grads I turned out are still in field and making great money. Many went back for a BS degree also. It all is going to be up to you. Do no believe all the hype about for profit education being a diploma mill. If you want to believe the diploma mill hype than that is fine to. I would give it a chance though.

sratakhin

Most state schools cost much less than DeVry and have much better reputation. Sounds like a no-brainer for me. I paid about $20k total for my degree. The school is not known outside of my state, but at least it's a state college.

devils_haircut

jeremywatts2005 wrote: »

Most every instructor had a Masters degree in field and multiple certifications relating to the classes they were teaching.

This is one thing I like about DeVry. My current Project Management instructor is actually a Project Manager with his MBA who teaches on the side. My previous Humanities professor was a Ph.D. and very high up the chain on the school board in Indianapolis.

I think the bad rap comes from the fact that experiences can vary WIDELY from campus to campus. Some DeVry campuses are ABET accredited, some are not. I see lots of complaints about specific campuses, but the one here in Indy has been great for me.

ptilsen

jeremywatts2005, thank you for adding your perspective. However, consider some of the following, all of which comes from an AAS - CNS graduate.

jeremywatts2005 wrote:

A diploma mill is one in which you go and pay money and receive a degree based entirely on your experience or they just hand you one.

A diploma mill is a school which hands out degrees without really requiring much validation that a student has put in the work and actually learned what they are supposed to to get the degree. In my experience, this describes ITT. The classes at ITT had very low passing standards. While there are far worse offenders, I would contend that passing most classes at most ITTs requires relatively little effort. On that note, ITT does allow students to test out of many classes. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but to your point about diploma mills, someone with generals done could come in and practically test out of a degree at ITT. While WGU, by comparison, is entirely "testing out" of classes, the level of knowledge required to test out of CNS and ISS classes at ITT is fairly low. Each class was, in my experience, significantly less difficult than the corresponding certification class, and almost all of them were clearly correlated with a specific certification, and in many cases even used certification prep material as the class book. Again, these aren't necessarily bad things, but the bad part is that someone could pass or test out of all of these classes and still lack the knowledge to get the corresponding certification. For $20,000 a year for "full-time," that is a sad state of affairs. Honestly, I only stayed with ITT past the first two quarters because it was so easy (I tested it out of several classes, slept through most of the rest) and because I was just looking for a piece of paper. These were the wrong criteria and goals, and I look at my past self in shame, but I'm not here to defend myself. I'm here to discourage prospective students from making what is unequivocally a mistake.

jeremywatts2005 wrote:

Some ACICS schools are better than other same goes for regionally accredited schools. ACICS schools have a primary mission and that is career training. I will say that ITT Tech we were held to a much higher standard than many regionally accredited colleges. The amount of paperwork to prove student outcomes was very high.

We also had to prove in field career placement. 25% or higher of the material you learned you had to be using directly in the field you are working. That is validated by auditors at ACICS and internally. Depending on the ITT Tech or Devry you go to will determine how rigorous your training will be. Some schools have stronger IT/Infosec programs than others. I would ask to sit in on a class or two to get a feel for the level of the instructors. I also allowed new students to come into class during the quarter to showcase the talent.

jeremywatts2005 wrote:

When I was an IT chair back in the day my school was almost 65% of the campus and we had a massive IT/Infosec program and an infield placement rate of 85% or higher of grads or soon to be grads. We are not talking about minimum wage jobs either more in line with 45K or more with an AAS. Most of the grads I turned out are still in field and making great money.

Part of the problem here is that, at least for the CNS and ISS programs, many, maybe most students who start at ITT are already working in the field. Most of my CNS/ISS classmates were in at least helpdesk positions. I was when I started. I was making more than the average ITT grad before I had graduated. ITT is geared towards working adults, and the placement rates, average salaries, and student outcomes are grossly exaggerated as a result. A public school a third the cost might have similar or even worse metrics, but those are for traditional students, 21–23-year-olds, who are just getting started. The average age at ITT when I went was about 30, and again, the majority already were in their fields and were simply looking for that piece of paper to help legitimize and prove their existing skills.

I won't dispute that ITT's curriculum is related to specific professional needs. In fact, it is far more related than any program I've ever seen at any public university, at least as far as IT infrastructure courses go. The problem is that the quality is not that great and the cost is outrageous. I didn't learn anything at ITT that I couldn't have learned faster and cheaper on my own, and the credential I achieved is certainly less valuable than the certifications I ought to have achieved. And here we get into one of the bigger problems; because of the relatively poor industry reputation it has and the narrow, low-quality focus, ITT ultimately provides neither a cost-justified credential nor cost-justified professional skills. And that's not just my opinion based on my own time there. I've since had the opportunity to interview and hire fellow grads. Sadly, not a single one I've worked with other than myself has been anything short of completely incompetent and underqualified. Now, I still know a couple who I respect and would work with, but they are the exceptions.

Part of the issue is that ITT takes anyone with a pulse who can get loans or grants. I mean that. Even conversational English was not a requirement. The assessment test to get in was a joke, and there was basically no other requirement. On that note, the recruiters were completely predatory. I get that it's a for-profit business, yada yada, but again, that's not a positive, either. At a public university, the worst you'll get is an advisor or admissions person that doesn't give a ****. At ITT, that's the best you'll get.

As for rigor have an instructor like me who teaches very hands on and I will work your butt off in lab and in the classroom. 4.5 hours of building out networks utilizing VM's, CISCO equipment and running cabling has the tendency to do that.

Again, this can be a good thing. Some classes were good experiences. The problem is that lots of mediocre instructors and curricula get through the cracks. For every great class or instructor, there are three horrible ones. I had four or five adjuncts at ITT that were really good and I had a lot of respective for, and maybe two or three classes that really justified the cost. The rest were wastes of time. There were several instructors that knew less than some of the students about their own supposed specialty.

Ultimately, even the goal of ITT is not optimal, in my opinion. Teaching specific (as in vendor-specific) infrastructure skills is okay, but there is nothing to speak of concepts, theory, or application of critical thinking. For the CNS and ISS degrees, it's basically a bunch of vendor-specific training rolled together into a "degree." While the more traditional theory-only-and-avoid-vendors-at-all-costs approach is problematic, too, someone who goes through a well-rounded education is going to be able to pick up the specifics easily enough on their own. Someone who gets a degree from ITT and needs to work with a technology that wasn't taught there is going to be at a disadvantage. I think that learning these specific technology and vendor skills comes down to who is smarter or has a stronger aptitude — not who is more educated or better trained — but having a broader understanding is always going to be an advantage over a narrow one.

Most importantly, the combination of degree and skills learned at ITT is never, ever, ever going to justify the price. WGU, traditional, public universities, private universities, and even other trade schools, on combined with skill-specific training (be it actual training or self-study) are going to provide a better or equally good credentials and skills for less money. ITT is simply not a rational choice for anyone, at this point.

ptilsen

devils_haircut wrote: »

This is one thing I like about DeVry. My current Project Management instructor is actually a Project Manager with his MBA who teaches on the side. My previous Humanities professor was a Ph.D. and very high up the chain on the school board in Indianapolis.

It's a misconception that this is an attribute unique or even more heavily applicable to trade schools. Between the credits I got to earn at a community college and at my university, almost half of my instructors were adjuncts who have full-time jobs in their field. You'll see a lot of that in MBA programs, as well. Sure, some are pure academics, but generally in the classes more heavily focused on professional skills, the teacher is going to either currently work in the field or have experience in the field.

Now, you won't see a lot of infrastructure professionals teaching infrastructure skills at traditional universities, but there's a reason for that. The best of them are teaching professional training, often straight from the vendor. You're not going to find the top-tier MS or Cisco trainers at ITT or DeVry. They work for MS, Cisco, or training vendors. When you want that kind of training and don't want to self-study, it doesn't make sense to try to get it from an $80K+ private university. Go to training if self-studying isn't your style. It's not anymore expensive, and you can get a valuable certification out of it. And if you really need the two-for-one of a degree that confers narrow infrastructure (or other specific industry) skills, there's WGU, and there are even AAS and BAS programs at public colleges and universities. These are not unreasonable goals, but there are cheaper, better ways to get them than DeVry and certainly ITT.

N2IT

I refuse to put down ITT or the other colleges, I have never attended or audited their educational system. I have seen strong employees come out of those programs and I have seen trash. However, I do believe in community colleges, at least the ones I have attended. They are very affordable and usually align with a local university in the area in that particular field of study. E.G. in the St. Louis area you can attend SLU and/or Maryville if you go for the accounting or finance associate degree. Computer Science also has a direct path to Maryville if you complete the 2 year degree you only have 2 years left assuming you will take 15 hours a semester. I think that's a great deal and the cost is so much less and you end up getting a strong bachelors from a Brick and Mortar.

ptilsen

N2IT wrote: »

I have seen strong employees come out of those programs and I have seen trash. However, I do believe in community colleges, at least the ones I have attended. They are very affordable and usually align with a local university in the area in that particular field of study.

Again, that's why I'll give someone with a degree from just about anywhere a shot, but also why there's just no reason to go to into these programs. CCs, commuter colleges, traditional universities, and WGU are more rational choices for someone considering going to school now.

Hammer80

Whatever you do, do not attend ITT-Tech. I went there and graduated back in 2001, biggest mistake of my life. The degree is worthless, you'll be better off getting an A+. Also do not buy into the job placement crap, they are perfectly happy getting you a $10hr job flipping burgers, for the purpose of their stats. You are then considered employed it does not matter if you are in your intended field or not. I am currently pursuing my bachelors and having to start all over again because ITT credits aren't worth crap.

Also another piece of advice unless you go to a top 20 school it does not matter where you get your bachelors. Then its just a check box for HR. Also once you turn 30 nobody really gives a crap if you went to a top 20 school, than its all based on your ability not where you got your degree from. The school that you went to only matters the first 5 years of your career and only in your 20's, afterwards its just a matter of having the degree so you can get past the HR gate keepers.

Almost forgot do not get a A.A.S - Associate of Applied Science Degree it does not transfer to any normal Bachelors program unless its something extremely specific like RN or Fire Fighting Technology.

SteveLord

I went to Lincoln Tech in New Jersey, which is basically a smaller ITT type of school that also does certified medical assistants or something like that I think. Chubb is another popular school in that area. So $14k for less than a year of school and I walked out with just a diploma. I already knew A+ and Net+ type of material very well, I just wanted some formal training and server knowledge under my belt.

The school included a ton of kids that came right off the streets. Even though the school required professional clothes (I did like that), their pants sagged and just looked sloppy overall. They were sold into the school by admissions hoping to walk into a well paying job. And I don't doubt the school passed many of them regardless. I had to retake a course with another class because I was deployed and I was still the smartest one in the room. Everyone else was clueless about servers, networks and active directory. It was hell.

Nowadays, if you call the place the easiest people to get a hold of are admissions. Gee I wonder why that is. Try anyone else and you'll get bounced around or endup at voicemail for people who never return your calls. Their career placement (another common sales pitch) was baloney. There wasn't even any assistance with building a resume or interviews.

These types of places prey upon the desperate. They will pester you until you sign the dotted line and start taking your money. I saw a lot of that. There was only a handful of students who acted professional and wanted a rewarding career in IT, not just a paycheck.

neo9006

Well thanks for that info Hammer ,I wonder if they are going to look at me when I am 40 and have a BAAS degree and say hey this guy can work for us, I always get paranoid to a degree about my age, but getting one promotion all my years at my current job is a joke,just have to keep positive.

Hammer80

You'll be fine just make the decision with your head and do not get desperate and do not get sold. Trust me my mistake is costing me about $20k, but it can get worse much worse. A person that I know went to University of Phoenix and then went to a state school for Masters, total amount of loans to the tune of around $120k, guess which school makes up majority of that. This individual then tried applying to a PHD program, one look at the University of Phoenix degree and this person was laughed out of the building, did not matter that they had a Masters since for PHD programs its your undergraduate that matters.

Gorby

I also attended Lincoln Tech years ago, the whole experience seemed like a joke. The admissions representatives would e-mail and call me everyday about signing up and trying different loans to attend the school. When I went to the class, most of the students there were off the street and expecting to be placed into high paying admin roles after graduating thanks to the dreams the admission reps were selling to the students about "job placement".

I still spoke with a few guys after I withdrew from that and decided to go the University route, only one guy was able to land a desktop support job and the others are doing stuff outside of IT.

Tim480

Definitely, take your prerequisites at the community college but do not take your electronics courses there. Horrible curriculum and instruction. The equipment I used there was severely outdated too. While people bash ITT Tech, it's perfect for Electronics. I'm not sure if I'd go for IT there but way more hands on and current than my experience at the community college. This is for an associate's too. For a bachelor's, yeah, you'd probably want to go with Devry or a non-profit. for an associate's in EET however, you can't beat what you'll learn at ITT. Should put you in line for a decent starting salary too. Adios.

IS3

My buddy who is a Systems Administrator now went to ITT tech but he went back to community college to get an AA Degree. He said the instructors are not as competent as the one in the colleges. But again that was his opinion. I think in the IT field certification has more leverage unless the employer wants a BS of some sort.

Danielm7

Tim480 wrote: »

Definitely, take your prerequisites at the community college but do not take your electronics courses there. Horrible curriculum and instruction. The equipment I used there was severely outdated too. While people bash ITT Tech, it's perfect for Electronics. I'm not sure if I'd go for IT there but way more hands on and current than my experience at the community college. This is for an associate's too. For a bachelor's, yeah, you'd probably want to go with Devry or a non-profit. for an associate's in EET however, you can't beat what you'll learn at ITT. Should put you in line for a decent starting salary too. Adios.

I'll have to disagree with pretty much everything you've said. First, saying "community college" is extremely general, just because your local college used old/outdated tech doesn't really mean anything for anyone else, it all depends on the local school. Also, being an IT forum, people would be doing IT courses anyway, not electronics. The community college near me is really well funded, is a Microsoft/Cisco/etc partner so they have solid training programs and great equipment.

For a bachelors I'd avoid Devry like the plague.

Oh, and about ITT Tech, just read this one yesterday
Is ITT Tech screwing over students? | The Verge