Need some advice...

JohnnyBiggles

I'm in a weird place right now. I have a job as a "network engineer" and I actually like where I work for a number of reasons. However, it has a few minor, well, possibly major drawbacks that are causing my current dilemma. The most prime suspect, is that I am VERY underpaid for what it is I do and for what credentials I have, or so every average, low & high salary I have researched has indicated. They low-balled the hell out of me and I knew it, but, I was in no position to turn it down at that time - and thankfully, it turned out to be a good decision, for the most part, since I've gotten to a point of a fairly stable lifestyle with what they do pay me, and I gained a lot of experience from taking the job and have excelled there, as I have been told. I got this job JUST after completing the CCNA Security. I've been there just over a year, and in that year I've done and learned a whole lot, and have even attained a new certification, my VCP5. I'm currently working on the CCNP and actually started the CISSP as well, since what got me started with all this was trying to register for grad school doing the Info Security curriculum. Long story short, I took to my own Cisco studies instead and needless to say, results turned out well, so far, and I benefited probably much sooner than the grad school route would have allowed.

Now... the dilemma is this: when I got my newest certification a couple of months ago, I updated my resume to include not only that cert but this current job and all that I've done & do there, and I was only doing it just to keep it current and to not have to do it at a later time. To my surprise, the very next day I got and have since been getting tons of calls from recruiters. It's sort of like I wasn't really ready for all that, but now I feel like I need to at least respond. Many (most) of them are for things I don't really want to do, or are in locations I don't want to go. The advantage I have is that I am stable, but only for now. A low salary only goes so far as when you realize your actual worth, and I believe I have exceeded that since I recognize how limited my potential growth is within this small company. BUT, the other advantage is, that it is such a decent environment that it yields time for me to study, which I have already begun.

I guess my question comes down to this: Would you stay, remain stable for the time being and study like hell & go for the gold - like a really high income (within reason, of course, but at LEAST industry average which in many cases is considered 'high') - or would you accept a mediocre job immediately that actually pays much more than what the current 'lowball' salary is, but is still less than industry/credential standard? [Factors to consider: Between the CCNA Security I have, VCP I have, the future CCNP I will have and future CISSP, I should be able to snag a really decent starting salary in the near future once I have them all (possibly by the end of this year), despite not having a ridiculous number of years of experience behind them... am I right? (RATHER than a hiring employer asking now, "Well what do you currently earn?"... and having them potentially low-ball me again based on my current income but teasing me with an income higher than it but lower than what it could/should be)] Sorry for the long paragraph but any advice or input would help. Thanks in advance!

Tom Servo

That's not an easy dilemma, but not a terrible one to have. Based on my experience, new certs and degrees will not always give you additional income (don't believe that the average CISSP makes 130k or whatever the claim is these days). For me at least, work experience has been the most important thing. At your current job, do you feel your skills will stagnate, or would learn more at a new job? Both degrees and certifications are nice bonuses, but experience seems to be rated higher by most employers. To really make awesome money, I'd say you need a balance of experience and certifications/education to back that up. If a new job that pays better will give you awesome experience, I'd consider making the move. Sometimes you can get credentials fast, but employers may still really want those years on the job.

JohnnyBiggles

Tom Servo wrote: »

That's not an easy dilemma, but not a terrible one to have. Based on my experience, new certs and degrees will not always give you additional income (don't believe that the average CISSP makes 130k or whatever the claim is these days). For me at least, work experience has been the most important thing. At your current job, do you feel your skills will stagnate, or would learn more at a new job? Both degrees and certifications are nice bonuses, but experience seems to be rated higher by most employers. To really make awesome money, I'd say you need a balance of experience and certifications/education to back that up. If a new job that pays better will give you awesome experience, I'd consider making the move. Sometimes you can get credentials fast, but employers may still really want those years on the job.

You're right, it's not quite a bad position to be in but I hate to see opportunities pass me by. I see you are a CISSP. What kind of experience did you have prior to getting it, and also, what kind of starting salary did you get, if you don't mind me asking? Just for ball-park's sake, I generally consider 75k+ a relatively high income but I am hell bent on getting a 6-figure income within the next 2-5 years, but want at least the low end of the average ranges for what these cert-holders get, which should be about or above that. From what I've read, VCPs', CCNPs', and CISSPs' average salaries [individually] are each above 75k and in many cases closer to somewhere between 85-100k+. How off am I? I've been told already by a recruiter that asking for 70+ is stretching it (based on typical percent increase at a new employer) but I refuse to be completely low-balled again and hate how my current income would play any part in determining my next income. That was one drawback accepting this job - if I'm already underpaid and you base the income of the new job on that, I'll always be underpaid which will suck. I want badly to break out of that. Regardless of experience, you have to start somewhere and it's kind of hard to be patient to have the 'years' of experience to actually get a decent paying job when you start behind the curve.

Also, we have a number of projects pending and on the brink of launch but many of them should have taken off already. I've been looking forward to some hardcore VMware working experience in a live environment to back the cert. Unfortunately, we don't deal with much Cisco (although the fundamentals and networking concepts are in use), just a few routers and many Dell switches/routers which operate very similarly. We do deal with security, but not quite on such ah high level - it's a small office environment. But part of my dilemma is that not many of these companies calling for me sound perfect nor offer much more experience with these things either, but may pay significantly more.

MSP-IT

I don't necessarily see why you think that your current salary will affect the pay of your next job. That isn't information that you NEED to provide to your next employer. With your experience + certs, I don't think you are going to have a problem finding a new job that pays what you want. If you're happy with the position that you're currently in, why take another that you wouldn't love? Find an opportunity that pays what you want and that you think you'd enjoy. You're in no situation to be hasty, as from what you tell us, you're quite comfortable! It's a great place to be in.

JohnnyBiggles

MSP-IT wrote: »

I don't necessarily see why you think that your current salary will affect the pay of your next job. That isn't information that you NEED to provide to your next employer. With your experience + certs, I don't think you are going to have a problem finding a new job that pays what you want. If you're happy with the position that you're currently in, why take another that you wouldn't love? Find an opportunity that pays what you want and that you think you'd enjoy. You're in no situation to be hasty, as from what you tell us, you're quite comfortable! It's a great place to be in.

I've already been asked at least 3 times what my current income is by either a recruiter or the HR person I spoke with from the employer. What would be the proper response to avoid having to give that information up? I've even overstated it at least once...lol.

Welllll I wouldn't say comfortable, just fairly stable, as mentioned. Got most debts leveled off a bit but it's quickly getting to a point where it's getting harder to be able to save/have money to do things people my age should be and are doing, plus I have a few new necessary bills now and I have student loans that haven't gone into full effect yet and when they do, I might not feel the same at all. But I do see your points, though. I'm just trying to get a what would you do kind of perspective from outsiders. I often get caught up with my own thought process.

boobobobobob

It's typical for recuiters to ask for current pay, you need to realize they make commission off what your salary is. Like any sales person they want to know how much they are potentially going to make by placing you in a job and how much effort they should put into the task. Also, don't overstate your pay... you might be asked to verify it with a W-2 or pay stubs. Like others have said you don't have to provide your curreny pay, that's a personal decision.

Also 70k is NOT stretching it. I make more than that and you have way more certifications than I do (but i might have more experience than you so i dunno).

JohnnyBiggles

boobobobobob wrote: »

It's typical for recuiters to ask for current pay, you need to realize they make commission off what your salary is. Like any sales person they want to know how much they are potentially going to make by placing you in a job and how much effort they should put into the task. Also, don't overstate your pay... you might be asked to verify it with a W-2 or pay stubs. Like others have said you don't have to provide your curreny pay, that's a personal decision.

Is or will be?

boobobobobob wrote: »

Also 70k is NOT stretching it. I make more than that and you have way more certifications than I do (but i might have more experience than you so i dunno).

That's refreshing to hear and I figured that much but it's just hard to gauge what 'normal' is anymore since this economy got jacked up and companies are just doing whatever they want. I feel like I want less than what the averages show because I know my experience is limited and it would be a BIG jump up, but it always feels like they try to go much lower than that.

MSP-IT

JohnnyBiggles wrote: »

... what would you do ...

Me? Personally, I would weigh the benefits of my current pay to the opportunities available within my current position. Personally, I tend to value monetary compensation above experience/title/opportunity. Although I wouldn't take a job where I'm not inclined to learn anything or be subject to a poor workplace environment; I do have standards.

Maybe a recruiter isn't your best bet for finding a job. Last fall/winter I had roughly 8 interviews in a 3 week period, and although they weren't as high level as VCP/CCNA/MCITP, I wasn't ever asked about my current pay. I would personally say something along the lines of "monetary compensation isn't the most valuable aspect of my current employment, thus I would rather not disclose my current salary".

JohnnyBiggles

MSP-IT wrote: »

Me? Personally, I would weigh the benefits of my current pay to the opportunities available within my current position. Personally, I tend to value monetary compensation above experience/title/opportunity. Although I wouldn't take a job where I'm not inclined to learn anything or be subject to a poor workplace environment; I do have standards.

Maybe a recruiter isn't your best bet for finding a job. Last fall/winter I had roughly 8 interviews in a 3 week period, and although they weren't as high level as VCP/CCNA/MCITP, I wasn't ever asked about my current pay. I would personally say something along the lines of "monetary compensation isn't the most valuable aspect of my current employment, thus I would rather not disclose my current salary".

Great answer. Thanks for that.

Tom Servo

JohnnyBiggles wrote: »

You're right, it's not quite a bad position to be in but I hate to see opportunities pass me by. I see you are a CISSP. What kind of experience did you have prior to getting it, and also, what kind of starting salary did you get, if you don't mind me asking? Just for ball-park's sake, I generally consider 75k+ a relatively high income but I am hell bent on getting a 6-figure income within the next 2-5 years, but want at least the low end of the average ranges for what these cert-holders get, which should be about or above that. From what I've read, VCPs', CCNPs', and CISSPs' average salaries [individually] are each above 75k and in many cases closer to somewhere between 85-100k+. How off am I? I've been told already by a recruiter that asking for 70+ is stretching it (based on typical percent increase at a new employer) but I refuse to be completely low-balled again and hate how my current income would play any part in determining my next income. That was one drawback accepting this job - if I'm already underpaid and you base the income of the new job on that, I'll always be underpaid which will suck. I want badly to break out of that. Regardless of experience, you have to start somewhere and it's kind of hard to be patient to have the 'years' of experience to actually get a decent paying job when you start behind the curve.

My experience prior to getting my CISSP was 4 years of helpdesk/desktop support, then 4 years as Systems Admin, then started a job as an Info Sec security guy. First infosec job's pay was 58k before I got my CISSP, but I got no special raise from getting my CISSP. After two years at the first Infosec job, I got a job at one of the Big 4 making 77k. So I would say your salary expectations aren't off. I've just seen a number of people that think CISSP = 6 figures, and I can confidently say that is not the case. Unfortunately, some companies (and recruiters) think one can only make 10-15% more than current salary with a job switch. I don't believe it (and have usually exceed that percentage). If you have the experience, skills, and certs, if someone wants you enough they will pay accordingly. My job hops were:
27k - helpdesk
32k - helpdesk
45k - Sys admin
58k - Infosec
77k - Infosec

Current - 79K


My view is: ask for what you are believe you are worth. If they aren't willing to pay that because of past pay, I'd say it is an indication of how you will be treated/valued by that employer.

JohnnyBiggles

Tom Servo wrote: »

My experience prior to getting my CISSP was 4 years of helpdesk/desktop support, then 4 years as Systems Admin, then started a job as an Info Sec security guy. First infosec job's pay was 58k before I got my CISSP, but I got no special raise from getting my CISSP. After two years at the first Infosec job, I got a job at one of the Big 4 making 77k. So I would say your salary expectations aren't off. I've just seen a number of people that think CISSP = 6 figures, and I can confidently say that is not the case. Unfortunately, some companies (and recruiters) think one can only make 10-15% more than current salary with a job switch. I don't believe it (and have usually exceed that percentage). If you have the experience, skills, and certs, if someone wants you enough they will pay accordingly. My job hops were:
27k - helpdesk
32k - helpdesk
45k - Sys admin
58k - Infosec
77k - Infosec

Current - 79K


My view is: ask for what you are believe you are worth. If they aren't willing to pay that because of past pay, I'd say it is an indication of how you will be treated/valued by that employer.

Thanks for being candid. I greatly appreciate some realistic information to work with. I realize the 6-figure target is a long shot with just a cert alone or in any case, and I don't expect that (although it's not impossible). But, having it along with certain others and experience with it before going into a new job might make the difference in having a running start at it.

Tom Servo

Given that your current job does leave you with a bit of time to study... and you believe you might be able to knock out both the CCNP and CISSP by end-of-year, it may not be bad to stay. A new job always means a lot less time to study as you get up to speed. A CCNP and a CISSP can only help you in salary negotiations, and having them may scare off some of the companies or recruiters that are trying to low-ball you. I'd say it depends how much you hate being underpaid and how quickly you can get certs. Having those, in addition to your VCP, even with the minimum experience requirement for the CISSP, 70k is not a stretch in my opinion.